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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by Skirdus View Post
    So, let me get this straight:

    Elune intended to send the nelf souls to Ardenweald, but they went to the Maw instead, which was apparently entirely out of her hands.

    This then means one of two things:

    1. Elune directly had a hand in the Burning of Teldrassil, which is fucked up beyond measure.
    2. Elune didn't have a hand in the Burning of Teldrassil and instead did absolutely nothing (since she wasn't even able to keep all the nelf souls out of the Maw), which is still fucked up beyond measure.

    Fuck Elune and fuck the writing team.
    If she is out of the loop about the Shadowlands (since her realm would be Life instead of Death), then she wouldn't have known about them being sent to the Maw when she sacrificed her people to help her sister. They would have been reborn if they had been sent to Ardenweald.

    Pretty basic easy concept to get.
    Just don't reply to me. Please. If you can help it.

  2. #342
    Elemental Lord Kathranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eurojust View Post
    Genocide =/= massacre
    All of these wars were fought and won by the Night Elves. Teldrassil was the first time when they were completely defeated.
    Nobody lived in Nordrassil btw.
    Same argument. If she had the power to save Teldrassil, why didn't she always save them? Why let any night elf die, ever?

    If she chose not to intervene this time because Ardenweald needed souls, what about all the other times? If Teldrassil was within her power to save, every other massacre would have been trivial to prevent.

    Either she can't save everyone, or she doesn't want to save everyone.

    And either way, there's nothing new here. This isn't some retroactive change to the story. We were there, we saw her fail to save them. We've seen her fail to prevent massacres of night elves countless times over the last 10,000 years. Rarely does her intervention extend beyond shielding a few intensely devout individuals.

    So why are you acting like anything has changed with this scene?


    Edit: To put it another way, Elune has always "worked in mysterious ways." She was never reliable. This is like getting mad that God didn't stop [insert recent tragedy] while ignoring the rest of human history.
    Last edited by Kathranis; 2021-07-28 at 12:03 AM.

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by formerShandalay View Post
    She didn't say she sacrificed the Nightelves or something, she says 'In the wake of tragedy..', which to me sounds more like she tried funneling them all to Ardenweald instead of letting them be sorted, when they died. Like, you know, when they all fell asleep instead of feeling their death, they were sent to Ardenweald instead of to the Arbiter.
    The only thing puzzeling here is that Elune didn't know they'd end up in the Maw. I guess this means, Elune is really the "Life"-counterpart of the Winterqueen and simply can't look into the Shadowlands. Hm. That's a bit disappointing, but still better than Elune being a Naaru ^^
    Except Night Elf souls have always canonically become wisps and not gone to the afterlife.

    So the problem becomes:
    Elune specifically sent the wisps away after they died instead of allowing them to remain wisps per usual.
    OR
    Sylvanas burned the tree for no reason because Night Elf souls don't go to the afterlife meaning the Jailer wouldn't get them.

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    Except Night Elf souls have always canonically become wisps and not gone to the afterlife.

    So the problem becomes:
    Elune specifically sent the wisps away after they died instead of allowing them to remain wisps per usual.
    OR
    Sylvanas burned the tree for no reason because Night Elf souls don't go to the afterlife meaning the Jailer wouldn't get them.
    Third option you're forgetting, which unfortunately is the actual explanation: Sylvanas burned the tree to try and stop the alliance Azerite supply line and secure all of Kilmador to withdraw completely from Eastern Kingdoms and end the war by having alliance and horde on different sides of the lake, but then the writers came up with shadowlands and retconned it during the expansion that she was just trying to kill as many people as possible and playing 5th dimensional chess lying even to herself in her own internal thoughts we read to mislead everyone.

    The story is a mess because they didn't stick with what they actually had, which was clearly setup for a canned old God expansion, not Shadowlands. For whatever reason they changed course and retconned tons of stuff within BFA so even the story of that one expansion contradicts itself. They wrote it on the fly, which we know and have statements about because of IE Zappy Boi.
    Last edited by Firefall; 2021-07-27 at 11:40 PM.

  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    We finally hear Elune herself talk! Through Tyrande as her avatar. And its not ambiguous ---- its Elune!

    This is huge. How many years have we waited for this moment!

    Elune has interacted / interfered very little over the years. She shielded Tyrande during Wc3. She shielded us, the players, during the Archimonde fight during TBC. She saved Ysera's soul from the Nightmare during Legion. But thats pretty much it.. in like 20 freaking years worth of warcraft - it's still literally only a handful of times where we can talk about Elune herself directly interacting with us or in our presence.

    Interesting we got this in a mid-expansion mid-covenant campaign cutscene. I wouldve expected something like this moment with Elune to be a movie CGI cinematic / end of raid tier / climax of entire expansion story type reveal.

    Interesting quote from the Primus at the end of this questline, "The Winter Queen is bound to her counterpart in the realms of Life. Together, they embody the balance of the great cycle".

    Your immediate first thoughts/reaction when watching the cinematic?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ature=emb_logo
    Relax, I can think of atleast 13 "Finally we've waited so long for this" moments and blizz shit on all them with terrible writing.

  6. #346
    I didn't read anything but I'm sure the night elves players must be angry.
    If I were a night elf I would change my religion. I would start praying to Belore

  7. #347
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    I didn't read anything but I'm sure the night elves players must be angry.
    If I were a night elf I would change my religion. I would start praying to Belore
    Bwonsamdi*

    reject elf, return to troll
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

  8. #348
    Elemental Lord Kathranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    Except Night Elf souls have always canonically become wisps and not gone to the afterlife.
    Not all night elves become wisps, and it's heavily implied that it's Elune herself that intervenes to tether their souls to the forests rather than letting them move on to the Shadowlands.

    In which case the aftermath of Teldrassil was less Elune sending souls to Ardenweald, and more Elune choosing not to interfere in the Great Cycle for a change.

    I would go as far to guess that it's probably Elune's regular contravention of the Great Cycle, perhaps even with regards specifically to the night elves, that caused the rift between her and her sister in the first place.

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Zendhal The Black View Post
    Blizz should just pull a lore ripcord and we wake up right after SOO with all 4 olg gods active and alive with Black Empire expansion... and everything up to SL was just a bad dream
    Make it waking up after a fevered nightmare caused by the plague fumes in vanilla Naxx, and I'm all for it.

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    Bwonsamdi*

    reject elf, return to troll
    Anar'alah belore

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    Except Night Elf souls have always canonically become wisps and not gone to the afterlife.

    So the problem becomes:
    Elune specifically sent the wisps away after they died instead of allowing them to remain wisps per usual.
    OR
    Sylvanas burned the tree for no reason because Night Elf souls don't go to the afterlife meaning the Jailer wouldn't get them.
    With what we know now from the Shadowlands, do you really think all Nightelves become wisps? Even those that might deserve Revendreth? You could argue, that Elune and the Winterqueen had a deal about the Nightelves and the appropriate afterlife the Arbiter would send them to is 'being a wisp', unless they deserve Revendreth. The Nightelves are Elune's army after all. Which might also be why Elune thought all Nightelves she relieves of their duty to her go to Ardenweald by default.

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    The only Loa also intervened at least in part because Zul's followers attacked them directly, and the Loa in general are actually present on Azeroth, as specifically Azerothian deities. Elune is now basically confirmed to be a cosmic force, part of the global pantheon of Life. She's not sitting around on Azeroth and can't intervene as fast or decisively.
    If the lore about the legion successfully wiping out almost all life in the universe is to be believed she should have plenty of free time on her hands these days.

    This actually raises the question of what the 'pantheon of life' was doing during the whole legion thing, one would think it would be them and not the light seeking to stop the mad titan's rampage directly targeting their domain.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    you NEVER EVER heard any mythological story other than christian/jewish/muslim, have you?
    gods in polyteistic religions were never omniscient, for example even Zeus, king of gods, had no idea whats going on in underworld...
    not to mention, we dont even know what elune actualy is, just bcs we call her "godess" doesnt make her one... she is just powerful, but so are titans and they had no idea what was going on on azeroth (lokens betrayal going unnoticed for example)
    She is directly responsible for choosing where night elves go in the afterlife. How the hell is she not in some aspect a god that governs death? What kind of religion has a god that simultaneously has the power to send souls wherever she wishes and also has no idea what happens to them once she sends them there?

    But oh right, everything is consistent because if it seems like a hole in the story, they can just pull some new lore out of their ass to explain why her powers are so ridiculously specific to whatever the story does and doesn't need them to be capable of. That doesn't make it not shit writing.
    If you reply to me with a full essay I'm probably not going to bother reading it, sorry.

  14. #354
    Elemental Lord Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    How so? Is Elune supposed to love these mortals that worship her so much that she wouldn't use them to not only save her sister (maybe blood, maybe not), but possibly save the death, which from the lore we have been given is part of the scaffolding of reality?

    Short sighted yes, oblivious yes, but considering how humans typically display gods/god-level deities, pretty in line with what has been written before.

    Think to many of you wanted an omni-potent god instead of a typical Greek god.
    I don't know how I feel about it, on one hand leaving them all to die is kinda questionable, but on the other hand they're sent to a better place eventually to be reborn. I mean it's more morally grey than anything we've seen from Sylvanas...and they actually called her morally grey.
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    Except Night Elf souls have always canonically become wisps and not gone to the afterlife.

    So the problem becomes:
    Elune specifically sent the wisps away after they died instead of allowing them to remain wisps per usual.
    OR
    Sylvanas burned the tree for no reason because Night Elf souls don't go to the afterlife meaning the Jailer wouldn't get them.
    Or the Jailer was aware of Elune having a connection to the Everqueen and positioned Sylvanas to burn the tree knowing Elune would send souls as aid that he could intercept.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    She is directly responsible for choosing where night elves go in the afterlife. How the hell is she not in some aspect a god that governs death? What kind of religion has a god that simultaneously has the power to send souls wherever she wishes and also has no idea what happens to them once she sends them there?

    But oh right, everything is consistent because if it seems like a hole in the story, they can just pull some new lore out of their ass to explain why her powers are so ridiculously specific to whatever the story does and doesn't need them to be capable of. That doesn't make it not shit writing.
    If I mail a package to my sister it doesn't mean I know what state her house is in.

  16. #356
    So... what the fuck are the Night Elves any more? Their entire culture and spiritual system is a lie and they are homeless.

  17. #357
    Elemental Lord Kathranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    She is directly responsible for choosing where night elves go in the afterlife.
    No, she prevents them from going to the afterlife by making them wisps. They would otherwise go to Ardenweald in most cases because that's where her worshippers usually wind up. Trolls normally go there, too.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kohtra View Post
    So... what the fuck are the Night Elves any more? Their entire culture and spiritual system is a lie and they are homeless.
    If they didn't have a crisis of faith in the last 10,000 years I don't know why they would now. Elune isn't any less reliable than she was before.

  18. #358
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Couchpotato2013 View Post
    - Reader/player is omniscient or at least is allowed to assume they are
    - game character for most readers/players is a self-insert
    - regardless of whatever character is called (adventurer/hero/champion/wanderer), players typically assume powers that are stronger than character (especially those several leagues stronger) are omniscient
    - why? Because the player is omniscient

    So when something happens suddenly (aka pretty much sylvanas’ actions in bfa and SL) the omniscient reader gets upset because they have been pandered to know everything. Doesn’t matter if story change is good or bad.

    And if a high power doesn’t operate in an omniscient fashion the player/reader gets upset as well because the hierarchy of information is wrong. And if it is wrong then either the writers are hacks (jury is still deliberating on this) and/or we have to believe the warcraft universe operates in a way in which all player characters are silent, willingly, helpless variants of Deadpool.

    As others have said lore is ok, story telling is garbo.

    Also several people in the WoW community need English lessons.
    No, the reader/player is privy to character's thoughts and 3rd party observations for which no other observers may be present, but that's not omniscience. An easy test of your omniscience is if you know how the story is going to play out down to the most specific of details - if that answer isn't an unambiguous "yes," then you're not all-knowing either.

    I think people are more upset by characters acting far beyond their prior characterizations than they are any entitlement feeling stemming from "pandering" or thinking they're somehow omniscient. A story not pandering to you is pretty much whatever - I don't personally expect a story to pander to me, but YMMV I suppose. I am more concerned when characters I know, and whose behavior I should be able to predict to some degree, instead make decisions or perform actions that are either deeply illogical or inconsistent (especially if said behavior is solely to serve a given plot).

    The lore is also part and parcel of the storytelling, not some separate entity that exists beyond or outside of it. If the storytelling is garbage, then the lore suffers as well. Not sure how to address your "English lessons" comment but I'd advise against going down that road any further.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  19. #359
    complete z-tier story expansion. we wait 1 week to get a couple "kill 10x random mob" quests and a cringeworthy cutscene.

    and then nothing until another week goes by for the same thing.

  20. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    If they didn't have a crisis of faith in the last 10,000 years I don't know why they would now. Elune isn't any less reliable than she was before.
    But we as players know it's all a lie. Who wants to play a Night Elf knowing 50% of their dialogue just makes them sound like idiots?

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