Page 22 of 40 FirstFirst ...
12
20
21
22
23
24
32
... LastLast
  1. #421
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinx Vox View Post
    Hold on .. is that canon?
    Unfortunately. It's early on in the Xe'ra core Illidan propaganda questline. Velen states that only a direct relative of Xe'ra can unlock the core, which takes us to Exodar thing and once that fails Khadgar says he read in one of Medivh's tomes that Elune could have made Xe'ra meaning that the Tears of Elune could unlock the core... which they did.

  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    The War of the Ancients and the Sundering, the War of the Shifting Sands, the Third War (in which Cennarius was killed,) the War of the Shifting Sands redux, Undead Invasion - Naxx edition, Undead Invasion - Arthas is back, the Cataclysm, Horde-Alliance War - Panda edition, Burning Legion Invasion...

    Lots of Elves dying in those wars, why did you not expect Elune to squish Azshara as soon as she started talking to Sargeras, kill all the orcs in Ashenvale then punch out Archimonde, flatten Ahn-Qiraj, incinerate the hordes of Scourge, slap down Deathwing, squish Garrosh and swat the Legion ships from the sky? Why is her inaction only an issue in Horde-Alliance war - boat edition?
    So I'm guessing you didn't really pay attention to ..

    • .. during WoW
    • .. in active expansion zones
    • .. during existential threats
    • .. in the night elven homeland in and around Teldrassil (and Nordrassil)
    • .. Cataclysm already covered

    Cool, cool.

    You know, the kind of situation you'd 100% expect Elune to be active towards the protection of her "favored children" as she has been in the past, even if it was just protecting them from harm rather than literal combat. Elune is far from as passive as she's made out to be .. just extremely inconsistent because she's become little more than just a plot device.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    Unfortunately. It's early on in the Xe'ra core Illidan propaganda questline. Velen states that only a direct relative of Xe'ra can unlock the core, which takes us to Exodar thing and once that fails Khadgar says he read in one of Medivh's tomes that Elune could have made Xe'ra meaning that the Tears of Elune could unlock the core... which they did.
    Oh, right, I remember that now. Another one to add to the list of wildly inconsistent powers, I suppose.

    Deep sigh.

  3. #423
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinx Vox View Post
    So, TLDR, the narratives of the mortal races of Azeroth stopped mattering because they're now just extra's in a soap opera about deities.

    Fun premise, but they could've made a new IP instead of ruining Warcraft for it.
    I mean, I agree that the lore of SL is pretty piss poor, but I'm trying to explain it from internal consistency - not judging the overall quality of where they're taking the story.

    What they're writing does, at least in this case, not seem that inconsistent within the framework they've set out. How much dramatic value that framework has is a different question, really.

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinx Vox View Post
    the kind of situation you'd 100% expect Elune to be active towards the protection of her "favored children" as she has been in the past
    she HASNT, not ingame not in any other lore, she protected FEW individuals, never shitloads of people...
    if you want to ignore books and all other lore bcs it doesnt support your narrow view fine, but Dhrizzle is right and you are wrong, simple as that...
    throughout whole nelf history Elune helped like 5 people, despite wars and other shit, but somehow this one single war where she didnt help LIKE IN EVERY WAR BEFORE, is different, bcs you decided so...

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Elune not acting on a mass scale is the only part of this nonsense that doesn't fuck with her lore too much as that would open the can of worms of why she didn't act in the much bigger wars the night elves were a part in. She still acted in the WC3 sense since her followers were still able to attack me with spells while I was chopping down 8 of them for pre-BFA World Quests.
    Elune not acting is fine and good but this cinematic basically implies that she could have acted but instead chose not to because she wanted her children to be fertilizer for her sister, not knowing they'd all be flushed down the toilet instead. She can't claim "sending the cascade of souls" as her action without allowing them to die, since passing over into the Shadowlands seems to be the natural procedure unless this is somehow tied into the stupid Legion retcon about Night Elves turning into wisps but that should be easy enough to check. Are there any Night Elf NPCs in the Shadowlands that got there prior to the Burning of Teldrassil?

    This then begs the question why Elune didn't intervene in other previous stages of Night Elf history that have been similarly disastrous.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinx Vox View Post
    So I'm guessing you didn't really pay attention to ..

    • .. during WoW
    • .. in active expansion zones
    • .. during existential threats
    • .. in the night elven homeland in and around Teldrassil (and Nordrassil)
    • .. Cataclysm already covered

    Cool, cool.

    You know, the kind of situation you'd 100% expect Elune to be active towards the protection of her "favored children" as she has been in the past, even if it was just protecting them from harm rather than literal combat. Elune is far from as passive as she's made out to be .. just extremely inconsistent because she's become little more than just a plot device.
    Why would you expect Elune's powers to be tied to WoW or active expansions, is there a lore friendly reason for that?

    Are you saying the War of the Ancients and Sundering, War of the Shifting Sands, Archimonde attacking Nordrassil and Fourth Legion War weren't existential threats, or didn't include Elven homeland? Remember at the time of the war against the Qiraji NElf homelands stretched right down through Gerald's and Val Sharah is in the Broken Isles at the heart of last Legion war, and of course Archimonde attacking Nordrassil took place at Nordrassil, where was Elune then?

    You didn't cover Cataclysm, why didn't Elune show up to stop Deathwing before he bust out of the planet to kill so many?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Elune not acting is fine and good but this cinematic basically implies that she could have acted but instead chose not to because she wanted her children to be fertilizer for her sister, not knowing they'd all be flushed down the toilet instead. She can't claim "sending the cascade of souls" as her action without allowing them to die, since passing over into the Shadowlands seems to be the natural procedure unless this is somehow tied into the stupid Legion retcon about Night Elves turning into wisps but that should be easy enough to check. Are there any Night Elf NPCs in the Shadowlands that got there prior to the Burning of Teldrassil?

    This then begs the question why Elune didn't intervene in other previous stages of Night Elf history that have been similarly disastrous.
    I think you're coming to a faulty conclusion from the video, it certainly didn't seem to me that Elune's godly duty is to intervene in mortal wars. This is backed up by her lack of action in previous conflicts.

    It's long been established that dead Night Elves hang about as wisps, our NElf characters even have a wisp ghost for corpse runs.

  7. #427
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Elune not acting is fine and good but this cinematic basically implies that she could have acted but instead chose not to because she wanted her children to be fertilizer for her sister, not knowing they'd all be flushed down the toilet instead. She can't claim "sending the cascade of souls" as her action without allowing them to die, since passing over into the Shadowlands seems to be the natural procedure unless this is somehow tied into the stupid Legion retcon about Night Elves turning into wisps but that should be easy enough to check. Are there any Night Elf NPCs in the Shadowlands that got there prior to the Burning of Teldrassil?

    This then begs the question why Elune didn't intervene in other previous stages of Night Elf history that have been similarly disastrous.
    There's been so many retcons regarding wisps I legit don't know the one you mean, but I rewatched it so I can better argue about this bullshit on internet forums. The implication as I see it from the way it's phrased ("In the wake of tragedy I sent a cascade of souls") is that Elune didn't so much allow Teldrassil as take advantage of those people dying anyway in order to fed-ex them to Ardenweald so they can help her sister out with the drought. This is in line with her only involving herself in minimal ways throughout much bigger conflicts like the War of the Ancients, Shifting Sands, etc. etc. and with her actions in the material world either being individual (bubbling Tyrande, saving that one satyr) or done through vessels (her priestesses, the Night Warrior).

    She has also shown the ability to do this before and has reason to believe it'll work, since what she does with the Teldrassil night elves is the same she does successfully with Ysera. I.e give her peace in her moment of death and then mail her directly to Ardenweald, skipping the Arbiter. She soothed the night elves being torched in her temple and then tried to do the same thing to do her sister a solid after the Winter Queen complained on twitter that she was undergoing a drought. But because unlike at the time of Ysera's death the Arbiter was broken, those souls didn't go to Ardenweald but to the Maw. The 'sent forth' bit is regarding Elune skipping the selection step in order to do her sister a solid.

    The plot is obtuse and poorly told in an out of sequence way across 4 years of real time by different writers, but that part of it does internally cohere. The problem is it coheres only in the sense of being the familial drama of a pair of deities, one of which was presented in a totally different way prior to this expansion. It also only works if everyone involved is either egotistical, stupid or both. If you wrack your head you can get that the idea is that the Winter Queen didn't specify the source of the drought to Elune in her PM asking for help as she didn't know it herself and when Elune seemingly didn't respond she got upset and so the two didn't communicate from there on out. Hence also why the Winter Queen is pissed about Ysera. She sees that her sister is willing to mail her 'pet' there, but not answer her pleas when the Winter Queen and her realm need help. The Winter Queen giving of herself to restore Ysera is her doing something that she thinks her sister didn't care to do when she left her high and dry. She learns in this cinematic that that isn't the case, hence the two reconciling. Likewise Elune maneuvers Tyrande into a position where Elune can help her sister after failing to do so earlier.

    The very fact that the human tragedy of Teldrassil's destruction, the political fallout of it and Tyrande's whole character arc amounts to one goddess refusing to do a follow-up call to another is bad for reasons I don't think I need to elaborate.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-07-28 at 09:40 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    She has also shown the ability to do this before and has reason to believe it'll work, since what she does with the Teldrassil night elves is the same she does successfully with Ysera. I.e give her peace in her moment of death and then mail her directly to Ardenweald, skipping the Arbiter. She soothed the night elves being torched in her temple and then tried to do the same thing to do her sister a solid after the Winter Queen complained on twitter that she was undergoing a drought. But because unlike at the time of Ysera's death the Arbiter was broken, those souls didn't go to Ardenweald but to the Maw. The 'sent forth' bit is regarding Elune skipping the selection step in order to do her sister a solid.
    Here's the thing: if she has the power to circumvent the Arbiter, then she likely also has knowledge of the Arbiter and can peer into the Shadowlands. If that's the case then why doesn't she see that the souls are all going into the Maw instead of being judged by the Arbiter? Furthermore, if the souls are going into the Maw because of the Arbiter being disabled and Elune circumvents the Arbiter to begin with to overwrite the destination, then why are the Night Elves still landing in the Maw?

    This is where I think this can only possibly tie into the Legion retcon about all Night Elves turning into wisps at the point of their death (which is retarded for different reasons) and that Elune merely switched off this procedure to send them into the Shadowlands instead (hence me asking about Night Elf NPCs in the Shadowlands that got there prior to BfA).

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The plot is obtuse and poorly told in an out of sequence way across 4 years of real time by different writers, but that part of it does internally cohere. The problem is it coheres only in the sense of being the familial drama of a pair of deities, one of which was presented in a totally different way prior to this expansion. It also only works if everyone involved is either egotistical, stupid or both. If you wrack your head you can get that the idea is that the Winter Queen didn't specify the source of the drought to Elune in her PM asking for help as she didn't know it herself and when Elune seemingly didn't respond she got upset and so the two didn't communicate from there on out. Hence also why the Winter Queen is pissed about Ysera. She sees that her sister is willing to mail her 'pet' there, but not answer her pleas when the Winter Queen and her realm need help. The Winter Queen giving of herself to restore Ysera is her doing something that she thinks her sister didn't care to do when she left her high and dry. She learns in this cinematic that that isn't the case, hence the two reconciling. Likewise Elune maneuvers Tyrande into a position where Elune can help her sister after failing to do so earlier.

    The very fact that the human tragedy of Teldrassil's destruction, the political fallout of it and Tyrande's whole character arc amounts to one goddess refusing to do a follow-up call to another is bad for reasons I don't think I need to elaborate.
    It's just the way the Warcraft lore team try to write "intelligent" characters. Just make everyone interacting with Sylvanas or the Jailer even more stupid than them.

    It's also especially funny that Tyrande's Night Warrior arc basically boils down to becoming an avatar of Elune's vengeance in order to rectify a crime that Elune herself willingly exploited only to then take away that vengeance-fuled power when she was close to actually achieving her goal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    It's long been established that dead Night Elves hang about as wisps, our NElf characters even have a wisp ghost for corpse runs.
    It's really only been established as a fact in Legion. Prior to that, Night Elf ghosts (sometimes illuminated by a beam of moonlight) appeared all the time to talk to us (and not just cursed ones) and either passed on into the Emerald Dream in some cases (Druids) or presumably went to Elune. Wisps were seen as mostly inanimate objects or creatures that are only there to serve the Night Elves. The idea that Wisps were deceased Night Elves was always presented as a rumor likely from the view of an outsider who's not part of Night Elf society (the now decanonized RPG books originally confirmed this and described it as a rumor among human scholars that is met with mockery from the Night Elves).
    It just also doesn't make any sense given how they were treated by the Night Elves. Cata still got it kinda right by telling us that just like dryads are the daughters of Cenarius, wisps are the children of Aessina the Mother Wisp.

    This is a case of a writer misunderstanding the spirit of the original story.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  9. #429
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The very fact that the human tragedy of Teldrassil's destruction, the political fallout of it and Tyrande's whole character arc amounts to one goddess refusing to do a follow-up call to another is bad for reasons I don't think I need to elaborate.
    It's a symptom of the underlying problem of the plot of BfA seemingly being hastily rewritten to make Sylvanas less evil now that she is getting a redemption arc.

    In BfA there was no question. Sylvanas was evil for burning down Teldrassil, and Elune had a reason to not interven despite seemingly being able to. Directly interfering on a large scale might not be something she would do, or even be capable of doing. But A Good War seems to all but state that if Elune wanted she could have stopped Sylvanas.

    Now if the implications are properly understood then I guess we are left to assume that Elune did not see the gravity of the situation and decided to just let the Nelves die because she figured that directly intervening in a mortal war was pointless when she would get souls sent to Ardenweald out of it anyways, saving Ardenweald which in turn would save the Shadowlands. Not realizing that the conflict was directly linked to the drought in Ardenweald.


    In the end this entire plot will hinge on Sylvanas and her redemption. The cancerous tumor in the middle of this entire thing.
    If she gets redeemed then the entire business with Teldrassil comes across like the most inane shock tactic. It would have meant absolutely nothing and at best being an opportunity to give Nelves a better capital, and at worst a horrible double down on shitting on the Nelves.

    From the beginning of BfA (or even Legion depending) the entire story with Sylvnaas seems to be one giant face turn after another. Constantly changing whether she is an antihero, a horrible monster or a confused and scared victim. There is no consistent throughline to Sylvanas. Her sociopatching tendencies in burning Teldrassil clashes horribly with her supposed antihero tendencies. Her sometimes care for her people clashes disastrouly with her killing her own people in Before the Storm. And her supposed intelligence is put in blinding contrast to her sheer stupidity at not realizing the Jailer is evil.


    I can only assume that when the writers talked about planning expansions at least 2 years ahead they only meant in the most broad terms possible. Sylvanas was going to be an antagonist in 9.0, so we should have her be a complete monster in the beginning of BfA.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    It's really only been established as a fact in Legion. Prior to that, Night Elf ghosts (sometimes illuminated by a beam of moonlight) appeared all the time to talk to us (and not just cursed ones) and either passed on into the Emerald Dream in some cases (Druids) or presumably went to Elune. Wisps were seen as mostly inanimate objects or creatures that are only there to serve the Night Elves. The idea that Wisps were deceased Night Elves was always presented as a rumor likely from the view of an outsider who's not part of Night Elf society (the now decanonized RPG books originally confirmed this and described it as a rumor among human scholars that is met with mockery from the Night Elves).
    It just also doesn't make any sense given how they were treated by the Night Elves. Cata still got it kinda right by telling us that just like dryads are the daughters of Cenarius, wisps are the children of Aessina the Mother Wisp.

    This is a case of a writer misunderstanding the spirit of the original story.
    Actually, the Warcraft 3 manual canonized it as a "legend" that's yet to be proven, so the RPG books no longer being canon doesn't impact that particular part.


  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    -snipper for brevity-
    The business with Elune does make some sense, but it also requires you to make a whole bunch of assumptions the game has not told oyu about.

    The let Teldrassil burn because she did not realize Sylvanas was allied with the Jailer. She sent the souls to Ardenweald not realizing the Jailer was already active.

    She didnt let Tyrande kill Sylvanas because it would kill her, and therefore prevent Elune from contacting the Winter Queen.

    The game really should not require this many assumptions without at least giving us something substantial to work with.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  12. #432
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I can only assume that when the writers talked about planning expansions at least 2 years ahead they only meant in the most broad terms possible.
    Hasn't that always been obvious though? Blizzard has mastered the art of pretending they have more than they actually do. Primarily because it's a marketing technique.

    "Come be invested in this fantasy product! We promise it has a whole lot of depth and amazing stories just waiting to be told!"

  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    The business with Elune does make some sense, but it also requires you to make a whole bunch of assumptions the game has not told oyu about.

    The let Teldrassil burn because she did not realize Sylvanas was allied with the Jailer. She sent the souls to Ardenweald not realizing the Jailer was already active.

    She didnt let Tyrande kill Sylvanas because it would kill her, and therefore prevent Elune from contacting the Winter Queen.

    The game really should not require this many assumptions without at least giving us something substantial to work with.
    It's likely elune knew something is up, but not the details so she sacrificed her followers to try and help her sister. The Maw or any real insights into it were very scarse before our arrival and a big nono topic for those who did know things. Not ideal explanation, but ptobably as good as we are going to get.

    (And yes Teldrassil 100% was for shock value)

  14. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    You mean simple dumb shit like the world being crafted by giant stone and metal people who built robots that were cursed to turn into humans, dwarfs and gnomes. Meanwhile orcs invaded because demons infiltrated their magic mountain (which was really a space ship with an angel wind-chime thing) and persuaded them to become genocidal maniacs as part of an interstellar space war?
    Yeah exactly. Instead now we have some ancient death god playing 900D chess chasing after infinity stones with no clear backstory or motivations and his angsty elf follower who realised that the evil guy is evil after all and doesnt want a part of it after setting fire to a tree and sending millions of souls to hell

  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    The business with Elune does make some sense, but it also requires you to make a whole bunch of assumptions the game has not told oyu about.

    The let Teldrassil burn because she did not realize Sylvanas was allied with the Jailer. She sent the souls to Ardenweald not realizing the Jailer was already active.

    She didnt let Tyrande kill Sylvanas because it would kill her, and therefore prevent Elune from contacting the Winter Queen.

    The game really should not require this many assumptions without at least giving us something substantial to work with.
    Agreed, it kind of works with a lot of assumptions but that's really not good, most people get it wrong on already a very simple level and I can't blame them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    The let Teldrassil burn because she did not realize Sylvanas was allied with the Jailer. She sent the souls to Ardenweald not realizing the Jailer was already active.
    I think its more likely she was not able to stop it for some reason...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    only wild spirits and gods get resurrected and returned to their realm. Pretty sure we don't see any 'normal' mortals being reincarnated. Only turned into spirits to maintain Ardenweald.
    Yes but I think they may change that for nelfs to undo BfA in a way. There is no reason why they could not resurrect mortals.
    Last edited by Hellspawn; 2021-07-28 at 11:14 AM.

  16. #436
    I love how people are bitching about Elune not knowing about the whole "everyone getting yeeted into the maw" deal, when even the Shadowlands' own Eternal Ones didn't have a fucking clue about it until after we got there.

    Use your brains, people.

  17. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    It's likely elune knew something is up, but not the details so she sacrificed her followers to try and help her sister. The Maw or any real insights into it were very scarse before our arrival and a big nono topic for those who did know things. Not ideal explanation, but ptobably as good as we are going to get.

    (And yes Teldrassil 100% was for shock value)
    It's certainly an explanation, but it comes across like extremely flimsy and ad-hoc, and more importantly is boils down the entire grand mystery of why Elune didnt intervene against Sylvanas into a simple misunderstanding.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinx Vox View Post
    Hasn't that always been obvious though? Blizzard has mastered the art of pretending they have more than they actually do. Primarily because it's a marketing technique.

    "Come be invested in this fantasy product! We promise it has a whole lot of depth and amazing stories just waiting to be told!"
    I didnt expect the entire expansion to be planned out in detail. I just expected more than an entire expansion being made seemingly just for an extremely shallow villain batting.
    I mean, the entire Sylvanas plotline in BfA in hindsight is really just there to make it abundantly clear that Sylvanas is the villain in SL, and the amount of work they had to put into it was entirely nullified simply because they seemingly forgot that they also wanted to have a redemption arc.

    I would have at least expected enough planning by the writers to know not that they wanted Sylvanas to have a redemption arc, and to therefore not oversell her evil deeds to this extent.
    As it is it seems like Blizzard decided to go for a redemption arc only after they had alredy set in stone how evil Sylvanas would seem.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  18. #438
    I don't think Elune denying Tyrande her revenge during the defense to be weird at all. It's Tyrandes choice, but to make a choice she has to know what choices she has and the impact of them. She didn't at that point, thus it would be terrible to let her go through with it. To make a choice you need to know you have one.

  19. #439
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    It's really only been established as a fact in Legion.
    It was quite well established in Vanilla when dead Night Elf players turned into wisps

  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    they'd all be flushed down the toilet instead. .
    How funny. I described the image I had in my head of Elune flushing the souls of Night Elves thinking they were going to Fish-heaven and instead they end up in the sewers.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •