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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    So when Elune says that "I condemn" them, it is that she could have helped in Teldrazil. Which agrees with what Elune and the Kaldorei say in BFA.
    That's a stretch. The narrow interpretation is "I did not mean to push the Night Elves into the Maw, but now they are condemned to it by accident due to my channeling." It doesn't confirm intent, or even complicity, on the part of Elune, just a feeling of guilt which jives with her crying over it. The tone of the cutscene is emotional, not descriptive.

    We don't have sufficient information beyond that to infer anything with certainty, and I doubt we'll get any. The extent of what Elune could or could not have actually done, and what would've happened if she had not attempted to channel those souls to Ardenweald, remains an open question that is not currently answerable because a) the only prior clues we have amount to "whatever the plot demands" and b) we don't know what is actually supposed to happen with Night Elven souls between Legion's "oh they all turn into wisps", Shadowlands "tadaah here we are in the afterlife", and the plethora of traumatized elven banshees throughout Warcraft.

  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    "Yeah... I let all those elves die so the souls would keep you fed so I did help--- wait WHAT! ...they WENT WHERE? .........fuuuuuck, so that was a bad move on my part."


    Omnipotent god-like being wasn't aware of what was going on in the afterlife.


    But I guess this would be worse if Elune said "yeah, I knew the souls were going to go to the Maw, because I knew my children would come to you and aid you, so it's all apart of my plan"
    I don’t think it’s said anywhere that Elune is omnipotent. Her sister certainly isn’t and she’s even in a realm of the Shadowlands that we interact with.
    Most of the god-like beings had no idea what was going on, from the lesser ones such as Bwonsamdi, up to the Winter Queen & Elune. Even in the book, Bwonsamdi knew something was up, but didn’t know to what extent or how bad.
    Last edited by Eapoe; 2021-07-28 at 12:59 PM.

  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    That's the meaning of "retcon".
    Wasn't a comment on whether or not it was a retcon, just a correction of what the original source was, for your informational pleasure. Not that it ultimately matters, no, because both the Warcraft 3 manual and the RPG book state the same thing, but I thought you'd find it interesting.

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinx Vox View Post
    That's a stretch. The narrow interpretation is "I did not mean to push the Night Elves into the Maw, but now they are condemned to it by accident due to my channeling." It doesn't confirm intent, or even complicity, on the part of Elune, just a feeling of guilt which jives with her crying over it. The tone of the cutscene is emotional, not descriptive.

    We don't have sufficient information beyond that to infer anything with certainty, and I doubt we'll get any. The extent of what Elune could or could not have actually done, and what would've happened if she had not attempted to channel those souls to Ardenweald, remains an open question that is not currently answerable because a) the only prior clues we have amount to "whatever the plot demands" and b) we don't know what is actually supposed to happen with Night Elven souls between Legion's "oh they all turn into wisps", Shadowlands "tadaah here we are in the afterlife", and the plethora of traumatized elven banshees throughout Warcraft.
    We have two important clues.
    1 Elune says I condemn them.
    2 Tyrande says that Elune abandoned them when he does the Night warfare ritual.

    We can't know what he did (or what he didn't do) But we do know that he somehow screwed up during the Teldrazzil Burning.

    Also like Tyrande she knew nothing of the beyond. Surely I screw it up with something that has to do with those who are alive or not.

    The Wisp thing would make everything clear but unfortunately we do not have any reliable idae of them. And we sure never will.

  5. #465
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    There are a couple of ways of looking at it, depending on how charitable you want to be with Elune as a character. Either:

    A.) Elune could have intervened but didn't, such as creating a holy barrier around Teldrassil and preventing the artillery fire from setting it on fire. She allowed the razing of Teldrassil to occur to send the souls of the dead to Ardenweald and her sister, which would make her indirectly complicit in Sylvanas' actions.

    B.) She simply "earmarked" the souls of the soon-to-be-dead for Ardenweald, a divine IOU of a sort that would've seen them funneled to Ardenweald as opposed to becoming Wisps or whatever their fate would've otherwise been. This wouldn't make her complicit in that she'd have no real agency in the events that occurred.

    C.) She did nothing but observe and let the natural processes of death take place (with the implication that her intercession could've lessened or prevented a number of deaths) ensuring a maximal haul of souls for Ardenweald. This wouldn't really make her complicit, IMO; but it still would've been pretty morally bleak for a goddess with her portfolio.
    We know little of Elune, there are a couple more nefarious possibilities. Elune told/influenced Zooval/Sylvanas into having the Tree attacked on the prediction she wouldn't intervene. She thought she was using Zooval but would "send" the NE to Ardenweald to aid her sister, not knowing of the arbiters fate.

    This would explain better why she feels she "condemned" the NE.

    Some of your reasons I feel sort of miss points. She would know that NE are likely going to Ardenweald, so "sending the NE" as she said would mean she actively sought to have them killed so they could move on to aid Ardenweald. Correct me if I'm wrong but Wisps are what happen after the NE body dies (old age) not when they are outright killed.

    Idk if I'm doing well explaining as I'm rambling the idea.

    She wished to aid Ardenweald. In order to do so she designed a plan to have the NE sent there. I think the attack on Teldrassil was predicated by her as a way of actively helping Ardenweald. Her "lucking" into the attack on the tree makes her sound like a lazy layabout.

  6. #466
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinx Vox View Post
    Literally all of BFA and all of SL up until this latest cutscene is Tyrande making that choice over and over again. What's more is that the "choice" now given by Elune is utterly meaningless because Sylvanas has already been dealt with (in the most unsatisfactory way, but it happened nonetheless). Tyrande has been denied her choice of vengeance when it mattered most, then got to play cosmic telephone as an excuse to end her vengeance story arc. It cements the Night Warrior arc as a bunch of inconsequential nonsense to placate Night Elf fans while allowing Sylvanas to live another day, which seems to have been the real objective of the whole thing.

    The cutscene neither advances the Night Warrior story nor offers any kind of meaningful resolution. It just aborts the arc because there's no longer a way forward with it within the overal narrative. Three lines of Elune cameo is the only thing to come out of this.
    No she didn't. She doesn't know the vengeance vs ardenweald situation. Not before, not now. So she hasn't been able to make that choice because of that reason. She has made it clear she wants vengeance. But she hasn't made the choice of vengeance or something bigger than herself.

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    wait, Elune - who is like the god of the Warcraft universe don't know where the souls are going and yet Bwonsamdi, a mere loa, can know? and even same souls from the maw?
    Bwonsamdi has the writers on his side because they consider him Horde. Elune is associated with the Horde's punching bag, and is a deity being written by edgy athiests.

  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Found it, it's just a paragraph long. No such luck I'm afraid. It's a marginally better than the Legion version in the sense that it's no longer contradictory to all the non-wisp night elf ghosts we've seen. Also that the wisp is explicitly the physical shape of a soul, not the soul itself, so they still move on instead of the night elves telling their ancestors to off themselves as unpaid labour. Here's the picture actually:

    The constant, dizzying Doylist-to-Watsonian switcheroo that Warcraft lore sources do all the time are as frustrating as the actual retcons.

  9. #469
    Elune’s words are definitely not the best choice to have been said. When I first saw this I started asking myself if she meant that she did nothing and let her people be killed by Sylvanas in order to help Ardenweald. Knowing that Ardenweald is meant for nature-like beings and that’s where they go, it would seem like that’s the case as Elune should know they would go there and not need guided, in some fashion, to get to the Weald.
    I think the actual meaning is that she just guided them to go that way while not directly ferrying them herself. The only reason I think that is because no one in that cutscene gave it a second thought. That, or everyone just decided that Elune letting her children be burnt alive was the correct thing to do.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Bwonsamdi has the writers on his side because they consider him Horde. Elune is associated with the Horde's punching bag, and is a deity being written by edgy athiests.
    Bwonsamdi is also a Loa of death and is more involved with the dealings of the afterlife as he is known to keep souls for himself.

  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Found it, it's just a paragraph long. No such luck I'm afraid. It's a marginally better than the Legion version in the sense that it's no longer contradictory to all the non-wisp night elf ghosts we've seen. Also that the wisp is explicitly the physical shape of a soul, not the soul itself, so they still move on instead of the night elves telling their ancestors to off themselves as unpaid labour.
    Thanks for the picture. It's marginally less frustrating than the Legion version in that it resolves the coexistence of night elf spirits and wisps but as you've said the main reason why the whole "night elves = wisp" thing is bonkers to begin with isn't really addressed by this.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  11. #471
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    We know little of Elune, there are a couple more nefarious possibilities. Elune told/influenced Zooval/Sylvanas into having the Tree attacked on the prediction she wouldn't intervene. She thought she was using Zooval but would "send" the NE to Ardenweald to aid her sister, not knowing of the arbiters fate.

    This would explain better why she feels she "condemned" the NE.

    Some of your reasons I feel sort of miss points. She would know that NE are likely going to Ardenweald, so "sending the NE" as she said would mean she actively sought to have them killed so they could move on to aid Ardenweald. Correct me if I'm wrong but Wisps are what happen after the NE body dies (old age) not when they are outright killed.

    Idk if I'm doing well explaining as I'm rambling the idea.

    She wished to aid Ardenweald. In order to do so she designed a plan to have the NE sent there. I think the attack on Teldrassil was predicated by her as a way of actively helping Ardenweald. Her "lucking" into the attack on the tree makes her sound like a lazy layabout.
    I don't really think Elune is a nefarious being, nor one who routinely and/or directly intercedes in the lives of her worshippers, so I would heavily doubt she would interface with Zovaal on any level (and likely can't in the first place). The cinematic strongly implies that Elune's feeling of having condemned the souls of the Night Elven dead was upon learning they had been sent to the Maw, and not the original desired outcome of them going to Ardenweald and the Winter Queen. Assuming Elune has no agency in what happened at Teldrassil (e.g. no real way of stopping Sylvanas and no way of limiting casualties), then earmarking the souls would really be all she could do to give their deaths a purpose beyond senseless genocide at Sylvanas' hands. This would be more in keeping with the characterization of Elune we've previously known, insofar as that goes.

    While I concede it is possible Elune is not as benevolent as her previous characterization would show, I think it is unlikely she actively designed or prompted the tragedy of Teldrassil. She probably wouldn't view it as "lucking" onto it, either. She betrays a fair amount of resignation in her words to the Winter Queen, as if what happened at Teldrassil were more or less fated to occur, and she simply used the tragedy to (hopefully) greater effect than it would've otherwise resulted in.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  12. #472
    Too bad all she speaks is poor blizzard writing shit.

  13. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    No she didn't. She doesn't know the vengeance vs ardenweald situation. Not before, not now. So she hasn't been able to make that choice because of that reason. She has made it clear she wants vengeance. But she hasn't made the choice of vengeance or something bigger than herself.
    Again: Tyrande literally made her choice in the preceding cutscene wherein she fights Sylvanas, and by the time the current cutscene comes around the "vengeance" option is off the board completely because Sylvanas has already been dealt with in the Sanctum of Domination raid. Elune offers a false choice to either continue or conclude an arc that has already been concluded, and thus the only thing that Tyrande can do is picking the only real option left: to accept that it has been concluded. Tyrande has conveniently been written out of Sylvanas' arc because she "chose" renewal. It's terrible writing because the only narrative intent is to close the Night Warrior chapter, and that's it.

    What all this means is that it doesn't matter that Tyrande didn't know about the "renewal" option before, nor that she later learns about it, because by the time she makes her so-called choice, it isn't actually a choice anymore but just a logical jump to the only thing left to do.
    Last edited by Jinx Vox; 2021-07-28 at 01:23 PM.

  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinx Vox View Post
    Again: Tyrande literally made her choice in the preceding cutscene wherein she fights Sylvanas, and by the time the current cutscene comes around the "vengeance" option is off the board completely because Sylvanas has already been dealt with in the Sanctum of Domination raid. Elune offers a false choice to either continue or conclude an arc that has already been concluded, and thus the only thing that Tyrande can do is picking the only real option left: to accept that it has been concluded. Tyrande has conveniently been written out of Sylvanas' arc because she "chose" renewal. It's terrible writing because the only narrative intent is to close the Night Warrior chapter, and that's it.

    What all this means is that it doesn't matter that Tyrande didn't know about the "renewal" option before, nor that she later learns about it, because by the time she makes her so-called choice, it isn't actually a choice anymore but just a logical jump to the only thing left to do.
    I don't see how it's a false choice? Tyrande can still murder Sylvanas to fulfill her vengeance. It's not concluded until Tyrande makes said choice. We all know what the choice gonna be I'm sure... But that has no bearing on Tyrande making the choice for her character arc.

    Now she has to make the choice to either do so or save ardenweald...she couldn't make that choice earlier because of lack of knowledge.

    Yes writing is bad..not aruuing that.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2021-07-28 at 01:30 PM.

  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I don't really think Elune is a nefarious being, nor one who routinely and/or directly intercedes in the lives of her worshippers, so I would heavily doubt she would interface with Zovaal on any level (and likely can't in the first place). The cinematic strongly implies that Elune's feeling of having condemned the souls of the Night Elven dead was upon learning they had been sent to the Maw, and not the original desired outcome of them going to Ardenweald and the Winter Queen. Assuming Elune has no agency in what happened at Teldrassil (e.g. no real way of stopping Sylvanas and no way of limiting casualties), then earmarking the souls would really be all she could do to give their deaths a purpose beyond senseless genocide at Sylvanas' hands. This would be more in keeping with the characterization of Elune we've previously known, insofar as that goes.

    While I concede it is possible Elune is not as benevolent as her previous characterization would show, I think it is unlikely she actively designed or prompted the tragedy of Teldrassil. She probably wouldn't view it as "lucking" onto it, either. She betrays a fair amount of resignation in her words to the Winter Queen, as if what happened at Teldrassil were more or less fated to occur, and she simply used the tragedy to (hopefully) greater effect than it would've otherwise resulted in.
    I'm not saying she is straight out nefarious. I'm saying her concept of right and wrong is different than what we would consider. To her, having the NE killed and the Tree destroyed which linked them to Azeroth is a fine way of helping her sister because they'll have a second life anyway. We also find out that the Night Warrior isn't wrathful vengeance, its just a boon she grants if she likes you. If it were a tool of righteousness, Elune would have said Tyrande has a mission to complete. But instead she just shrugs and says "its her choice".

  16. #476
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinx Vox View Post
    That's a stretch .
    No, that's not. Elune said that she condemned them, therefore she's responsible for the situation in letting her people burn (which is why so many night elves thought- rightly at the time, that Elune abandoned them).
    It's explicit.

  17. #477
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    We do know that Maiev visited the grave. Because Khadgar asks her for another way since she knows the tomb. (And it's absurd for her to "know" her if she only went to W3).

    The second issue is whether or not she has the job to make them Wisp. IF it is not Her work of her then when she said that "I condemn" it does not mean that "it did not turn them in Wisp".

    For my part and what I know about the Wisp (which is little) I think she does not have that job but it is something natural.

    So when Elune says that "I condemn" them, it is that she could have helped in Teldrazil. Which agrees with what Tyrande and the Kaldorei say in BFA.
    Maiev was a Watcher and peerless tracker, she would likely have committed the terrain to memory from just her visit in WC3: TFT, especially given the strong impact that it had on her life afterward. The Tomb of Sargeras was a deeply forbidden place, and for good reason - it's also worth pointing out that Naisha was originally killed by a massive cave-in during their flight from the Tomb and wouldn't have a grave to speak of, it's highly likely that Maiev wouldn't even know where her body was.

    It's strongly implied, to the point of being more or less direct, that Elune's choice of "condemn" means about their ultimate fate in the Maw, and not their deaths as mortals. Elune is highly likely not responsible for their deaths, but meant to be responsible for their arrival in Ardenweald in order to both aid the Winter Queen and possibly be reborn once more into the mortal world. Tyrande was herself unaware of what was happening, as were the rest of the kaldorei people; and both were speaking from a place of understandable confusion and anger.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    I'm not saying she is straight out nefarious. I'm saying her concept of right and wrong is different than what we would consider. To her, having the NE killed and the Tree destroyed which linked them to Azeroth is a fine way of helping her sister because they'll have a second life anyway. We also find out that the Night Warrior isn't wrathful vengeance, its just a boon she grants if she likes you. If it were a tool of righteousness, Elune would have said Tyrande has a mission to complete. But instead she just shrugs and says "its her choice".
    She may indeed have a blue/orange type morality that is different from ours, but on the same token she's always been a beneficent force for the kaldorei, so I don't think she'd sacrifice them out of hand even to aid her sister (in some Machiavellian detached god type manner). The Night Warrior seems to be a form of invocation that prompts an avatar of Elune (specifically her vengeance in the case of the Night Warrior), so as Tyrande was the acting conduit for Elune at the moment it was right that it should be her choice, especially since it was her people that was being decided for. I don't think it was an apathetic decision on Elune's part, but rather giving Tyrande rightful agency to choose her own fate, especially in light of Elune's own mistake that ultimately consigned the kaldorei dead to the Maw.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  18. #478
    Dreadlord Smallfruitbat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    I'm not saying she is straight out nefarious. I'm saying her concept of right and wrong is different than what we would consider. To her, having the NE killed and the Tree destroyed which linked them to Azeroth is a fine way of helping her sister because they'll have a second life anyway. We also find out that the Night Warrior isn't wrathful vengeance, its just a boon she grants if she likes you. If it were a tool of righteousness, Elune would have said Tyrande has a mission to complete. But instead she just shrugs and says "its her choice".
    Except, she's not really offering Tyrande a choice, it's coercion at best. Sure, you can have your vengeance but if you do, then you'll condemn Ardenweald and all the poor souls who could have a happy afterlife there.

  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I don't really think Elune is a nefarious being, nor one who routinely and/or directly intercedes in the lives of her worshippers, so I would heavily doubt she would interface with Zovaal on any level (and likely can't in the first place). The cinematic strongly implies that Elune's feeling of having condemned the souls of the Night Elven dead was upon learning they had been sent to the Maw, and not the original desired outcome of them going to Ardenweald and the Winter Queen. Assuming Elune has no agency in what happened at Teldrassil (e.g. no real way of stopping Sylvanas and no way of limiting casualties), then earmarking the souls would really be all she could do to give their deaths a purpose beyond senseless genocide at Sylvanas' hands. This would be more in keeping with the characterization of Elune we've previously known, insofar as that goes.

    While I concede it is possible Elune is not as benevolent as her previous characterization would show, I think it is unlikely she actively designed or prompted the tragedy of Teldrassil. She probably wouldn't view it as "lucking" onto it, either. She betrays a fair amount of resignation in her words to the Winter Queen, as if what happened at Teldrassil were more or less fated to occur, and she simply used the tragedy to (hopefully) greater effect than it would've otherwise resulted in.
    What I got out of it is that Elune could have theorietically intervened somehow. Probably not in a grand blinding flash of light, but maybe in a more subtle way by maybe stopping Sylvanas somehow, or giving Tyrande or Malfurion a boost to prevent Saurfang from managing to attack Malfurion from behind.

    What I guess we are supposed to conclude then is that Elune didnt intervene either because she distincly needed the Nelves to die for the greater good of saving Ardenweald (which form her point of view would prevent Zovaal from gaining power) or she couldnt/didnt want to directly intervene in what she might have assumed were mortal affairs. Elune didnt know Zovaal was plotting anything, and therefore probably didnt know that Sylvanas was his agent either, so from her point of view I guess she probably just saw it as a run of the mill war.

    Regardless its a case where a big question was asked on why Elune didnt directly intervene to stop Sylvanas. And while I guess the reasoning works if you make some assumptions and stretch to reach conclusions there obvious outcome here is that Elune didnt stop Teldrassil burning because of a misunderstanding, which is horribly weak as a resolution goes.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    I don't see how it's a false choice? Tyrande can still murder Sylvanas to fulfill her vengeance. It's not concluded until Tyrande makes said choice. We all know what the choice gonna be I'm sure... But that has no bearing on Tyrande making the choice for her character arc.

    Now she has to make the choice to either do so or save ardenweald...she couldn't make that choice earlier because of lack of knowledge.

    Yes writing is bad..not aruuing that.
    But then it would not be a choice either because now I could kill Sylvanas without any power and effort and then go for renewal.
    It is more to kill Syvlanas would be the path of renewal. Because it would be the way to quench the thirst for revenge.
    Tyrande -The Horde gave us Sylvanas's head as a token of apology and willingness to change-

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Maiev was a Watcher and peerless tracker, she would likely have committed the terrain to memory from just her visit in WC3: TFT, especially given the strong impact that it had on her life afterward. The Tomb of Sargeras was a deeply forbidden place, and for good reason - it's also worth pointing out that Naisha was originally killed by a massive cave-in during their flight from the Tomb and wouldn't have a grave to speak of, it's highly likely that Maiev wouldn't even know where her body was.
    I can accept it. Although it would be 100% out of character that he has not searched for Naisha's body. more when he immediately recognizes her as Banshe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    It's strongly implied, to the point of being more or less direct, that Elune's choice of "condemn" means about their ultimate fate in the Maw, and not their deaths as mortals. Elune is highly likely not responsible for their deaths, but meant to be responsible for their arrival in Ardenweald in order to both aid the Winter Queen and possibly be reborn once more into the mortal world. Tyrande was herself unaware of what was happening, as were the rest of the kaldorei people; and both were speaking from a place of understandable confusion and anger.
    but for this we have no sources. Tyrande did not make that claim in other Catholic events so the whole story seems to point to Elune being able to prevent the tree from burning.
    There is nothing that really marks us that speaks of not returning Wisp.
    Because the "in the wake of the disaster" can suggest both Teldrazzil and the drought of souls. It is more at no time there speaks of Teldrazzil so it is more logical that it is the soul drought.

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