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  1. #481
    Quote Originally Posted by Smallfruitbat View Post
    Except, she's not really offering Tyrande a choice, it's coercion at best. Sure, you can have your vengeance but if you do, then you'll condemn Ardenweald and all the poor souls who could have a happy afterlife there.
    It's not really coercion. It's a choice between killing someone meaningless and then dying meaninglessly, or live and help your people in a way that actually matters.

    Even if Sylvanas was definitely still on the Jailers side then she doesnt pose a threat, and the Nelf souls are still in danger. If Tyrande died then she would be unable to help any other Nelf soul. Instead she could live, not go and kill Sylvanas herself, and instead use her power to defeat Zovaal.


    Besides, on a meta-level its only an impactful choice because we as the players are seemingly expected to understand that Sylvanas will be redeemed. From Tyrande's point of view she is really just giving up the guarantee that Sylvanas dies by her hand, not really that Sylvanas won't die at all. For all she and everyone else knows they could be torturing Sylvanas until they find out what the Jailer wants then punting her into a fire.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  2. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    More and more i am awaiting the day for a radical "atheist" (for the lack of a better word) movement, whose sole goal is to eradicate the influence of any "divine forces" from Azeroth.
    At this point, I kinda WANT to see that sort of group. Someone that's pissed off at all these high-and-mighty powerful beings making judgement over countless souls and not facing any repercussions. Tear it all down, baby!

    The lore in this cinematic was awful. It makes Elune out to be both a moron AND malevolent, and also helps shift blame away from Sylvanas, something I'm sure they're going to push hard to try and redeem her (which is disgusting). Terrible, just stupid.

  3. #483
    Quote Originally Posted by eurojust View Post
    No, that's not. Elune said that she condemned them, therefore she's responsible for the situation in letting her people burn (which is why so many night elves thought- rightly at the time, that Elune abandoned them).
    It's explicit.
    no, she condemned them bcs she let them pass to SL where she thought they will be directed by arbiter to ardenweald (at least most of them) but instead they ended up in maw...
    they were dead already, have fuck all to do with "condemning" them...

  4. #484
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    no, she condemned them bcs she let them pass to SL where she thought they will be directed by arbiter to ardenweald (at least most of them) but instead they ended up in maw...
    they were dead already, have fuck all to do with "condemning" them...
    Elune condemned them by letting the genocide happen. She wasn't responsible for the afterlife being broken. Any soul would go the maw anyway.

  5. #485
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    More and more i am awaiting the day for a radical "atheist" (for the lack of a better word) movement, whose sole goal is to eradicate the influence of any "divine forces" from Azeroth.
    That's pretty much the Mag'har's thing more or less. I really hoped they would explore it further, but here we are and they're probably gonna end up as forgotten as Ji Firepaw...

  6. #486
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    It's not really coercion. It's a choice between killing someone meaningless and then dying meaninglessly, or live and help your people in a way that actually matters.
    .
    Of course that's coercion : "if you choose vengeance, it's over for ardenweald etc". That's not a choice here. Except if you're a maniac.

  7. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    But then it would not be a choice either because now I could kill Sylvanas without any power and effort and then go for renewal.
    It is more to kill Syvlanas would be the path of renewal. Because it would be the way to quench the thirst for revenge.
    Tyrande -The Horde gave us Sylvanas's head as a token of apology and willingness to change-
    I'm not sure I get what you are saying.. You can't do anything. We didn't even kill Sylvanas...she is now in a weakened state though. And here is the choice for Tyrande. Will she kill Sylvanas or will she let her be and let Sylvanas aid us defeat the jailor.

    Does she want revenge for teldrassil which she has striven for for so long... Or will she let it go and save everything else.

    The entire point of my argument were a response to people saying "lol so Elune now gives her a choice but not when she could kill Sylvanas earlier?". Which is missing the point that Tyrande doesn't have the full picture to make that choice at the earlier situation... thus Elune robbed her of her power. Which is an act of good...

  8. #488
    Quote Originally Posted by eurojust View Post
    Elune condemned them by letting the genocide happen. She wasn't responsible for the afterlife being broken. Any soul would go the maw anyway.
    watch the video once more and LISTEN TO IT ffs...
    "IN THE WAKE OF TRAGEDY" she send the souls, literaly said after they already died she didnt intervene to take them but let them pass...
    she didnt stop sylvanas from burning the tree from the same reason she didnt help nelfs in ANY WAR... in over 10thousands years of their history, she never did help them in a war, she helped very FEW individuals, but thats it...

    and she DID NOT KNOW wtf is going on in shadowlands, she knew what winter queen told her - that ardenweald needs more souls - but thats it, winter queen didnt know more before we told her after finishing campaign...
    seriosuly, it seems to me like people ignore the story completely while playing and then complain it doesnt make sense, well ofc it doesnt if you dont pay attention...

  9. #489
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    I'm not sure I get what you are saying.. You can't do anything. We didn't even kill Sylvanas...she is now in a weakened state though. And here is the choice for Tyrande. Will she kill Sylvanas or will she let her be and let Sylvanas aid us defeat the jailor.

    Does she want revenge for teldrassil which she has striven for for so long... Or will she let it go and save everything else.

    The entire point of my argument were a response to people saying "lol so Elune now gives her a choice but not when she could kill Sylvanas earlier?". Which is missing the point that Tyrande doesn't have the full picture to make that choice at the time thus Elune robbed her of her power.
    That's 100% what this cinematic implies. What would be the point of letting her choose between renewal of vengeance otherwise?

  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by eurojust View Post
    Of course that's coercion : "if you choose vengeance, it's over for ardenweald etc". That's not a choice here. Except if you're a maniac.
    but the choice is not kill sylva or help your people, its "use THIS POWER to do one or another" she can still go and kill sylvanas...

  11. #491
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    I'm not sure I get what you are saying.. You can't do anything. We didn't even kill Sylvanas...she is now in a weakened state though. And here is the choice for Tyrande. Will she kill Sylvanas or will she let her be and let Sylvanas aid us defeat the jailor.

    Does she want revenge for teldrassil which she has striven for for so long... Or will she let it go and save everything else.

    The entire point of my argument were a response to people saying "lol so Elune now gives her a choice but not when she could kill Sylvanas earlier?". Which is missing the point that Tyrande doesn't have the full picture to make that choice at the earlier situation... thus Elune robbed her of her power. Which is an act of good...
    Back is not a choice.
    She can get Sylvanas's information and then kill her.

    And it is clear that she is not referring to that. She but to use the powers of the Night war to heal or to avenge herself. Otherwise it would not be any kind of choice of A or B.

  12. #492
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    watch the video once more and LISTEN TO IT ffs...
    "IN THE WAKE OF TRAGEDY" she send the souls, literaly said after they already died she didnt intervene to take them but let them pass...
    she didnt stop sylvanas from burning the tree from the same reason she didnt help nelfs in ANY WAR... in over 10thousands years of their history, she never did help them in a war, she helped very FEW individuals, but thats it...

    and she DID NOT KNOW wtf is going on in shadowlands, she knew what winter queen told her - that ardenweald needs more souls - but thats it, winter queen didnt know more before we told her after finishing campaign...
    seriosuly, it seems to me like people ignore the story completely while playing and then complain it doesnt make sense, well ofc it doesnt if you dont pay attention...
    First : calm down.
    Second : I don't care about what Elune did previously since she's admitting that she let the genocide happens in this cinematic (btw Elune empowered the night elves, used miracles, etc. many time, go check the lore. Oh and the Nelves never got genocided before that).
    Third : She admits that she condemned her people. You do the maths on why she condemned her people.

  13. #493
    Quote Originally Posted by eurojust View Post
    That's 100% what this cinematic implies. What would be the point of letting her choose between renewal of vengeance otherwise?
    So we agree?... Seems like people may have missed the thread and my original post.
    My point is literally that Tyrande can make that choice now when she knows the full picture.

    She didn't know the full picture at the point of the defense of ardenweald... Thus she wasn't given the choice to kill Sylvanas there.

  14. #494
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    but the choice is not kill sylva or help your people, its "use THIS POWER to do one or another" she can still go and kill sylvanas...
    Then why did she offer that choice in the first place, if Tyrande is free to go get her revenge 1 sec later anyway?

  15. #495
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    ...no
    just no, theres nothing else to say about this

    she says AFTER THEY DIED she let them pass into SL instead of claiming them for her own (making them wisps or whatnot)...
    She doesn't do that, chronicle says only a couple of NE become wisps and it could be equal parts attachment to the tree magic and possibly elune.

    Destroying the tree that links NE to Azeroth is a guaranteed way to send them all through to Ardenweald.

    All we know is Elune meant to send the NE to Ardenweald to aid her sister.

    You are assuming Elune wouldn't do that, but we see that Elune probably doesn't really care as much as you think.
    Last edited by StillMcfuu; 2021-07-28 at 02:14 PM.

  16. #496
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    So we agree?... Seems like people may have missed the thread and my original post.
    My point is literally that Tyrande can make that choice no when she knows the full picture.

    She didn't know the full picture at the point of the defense of ardenweald... Thus she wasn't given the choice to kill Sylvanas there. Nor could she know because Elune didn't either.
    What is the full picture? If you get your revenge, Ardenweald and plenty of souls will suffer from that?

  17. #497
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    Back is not a choice.
    She can get Sylvanas's information and then kill her.

    And it is clear that she is not referring to that. She but to use the powers of the Night war to heal or to avenge herself. Otherwise it would not be any kind of choice of A or B.
    If you assume we only need information... We clearly need Sylvanas power and her help fighting... At least that's what I think.

  18. #498
    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    She doesn't do that, chronicle says only a couple of NE become wisps and it could be equal parts attachment to the tree magic and possibly elune.

    Destroying the tree that links NE to Azeroth is a guaranteed way to send them all through to Ardenweald.
    thats why i said whatnot, as we dont really know what she would do with them in "normal" circumstances...
    she LITERALY said it, that she did send them AFTER the tragedy, like, how can anyone understand it in any other way that she intervened (or actualy didnt intervene) in normal afterlife proces after the tree was burned is beyond my understanding...
    to me its crystal clear...

  19. #499
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    If you assume we only need information... We clearly need Sylvanas power and her help fighting... At least that's what I think.
    We can still kill in the end.
    And at the same time we do not need Sylvanas to have "Renewal" but to have Revenge against Zoveel.

  20. #500
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    thats why i said whatnot, as we dont really know what she would do with them in "normal" circumstances...
    she LITERALY said it, that she did send them AFTER the tragedy, like, how can anyone understand it in any other way that she intervened (or actualy didnt intervene) in normal afterlife proces is beyond my understanding...
    Every one got that she intervened in the "afterlife process", which was useless. But this isn't how she "condemned her children". She condemned her children by letting the genocide happen so she could use them as batteries (lol at how she rewards her "favorites").

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