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  1. #501
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    I can accept it. Although it would be 100% out of character that he has not searched for Naisha's body. more when he immediately recognizes her as Banshe.
    Maiev was pretty unhinged by her experience in Outland and at Illidan's hands, so I could understand that she might not be so keen on re-experiencing the events that propelled her in that direction and so forth. When she discovered some part of Naisha was still around as a Banshee she was quick to put her friend in life to rest, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    but for this we have no sources. Tyrande did not make that claim in other Catholic events so the whole story seems to point to Elune being able to prevent the tree from burning.
    There is nothing that really marks us that speaks of not returning Wisp.
    Because the "in the wake of the disaster" can suggest both Teldrazzil and the drought of souls. It is more at no time there speaks of Teldrazzil so it is more logical that it is the soul drought.
    The sequence of the dialogue makes other readings of it a bit more outlandish, IMO. Elune's "in the wake of disaster" is followed by the Winter Queen confirming she's talking about Teldrassil as "the Great Tree." So the disaster is heavily implied to be Teldrassil itself, and not the Drought. This is doubly confirmed when Elune refers to the "cascade of souls," which could only be the kaldorei dead of Teldrassil. Beyond that, though, all bets are off as to the degree to which Elune had direct or indirect agency in what happened - it is left up to the viewer to decide if Elune is or isn't complicit in what happened.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  2. #502
    Quote Originally Posted by eurojust View Post
    What is the full picture? If you get your revenge, Ardenweald and plenty of souls will suffer from that?
    The video is pretty clear on it, Revenge or renewal...What that implies is up to us to speculate until they reveal more.

    However, rewatching it once more and I realise Elune couldn't have know about "the choice" at that point of time to rob Tyrande of her power to prevent her from making a mistake.
    So yeah, guess it doesn't make much sense regardless...

    Rip.

  3. #503
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    - it is left up to the viewer to decide if Elune is or isn't complicit in what happened.
    I agree and the latter is what ends up defining this as a "kinematics garbage".

    Because when I tried to retify it in the next patch, we are going to have "hating" Elune for months.

  4. #504
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    The video is pretty clear on it, Revenge or renewal... Its pretty clear. What that implies is up to us to speculate until they reveal more.

    However, rewatching it once more and I realise Elune couldn't have know about "the choice" at that point of time to rob Tyrande of her power to prevent her from making a mistake.
    So yeah, guess it doesn't make much sense regardless...

    Rip.
    Yea, let's wait for more "reveal" after that Elune stopped Tyrande from killing Sylvanas, after that Elune gave the false choice between revenge or renewal and that Tyrande picked renewal. The Night Elves will get their justice any time now, let's wait for more reveal!

  5. #505
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    However, rewatching it once more and I realise Elune couldn't have know about "the choice" at that point of time to rob Tyrande of her power to prevent her from making a mistake.
    i mean, she knew ardenweald is realm of renewal and rebirth, its not much of a stretch to say she at least hoped for it...

  6. #506
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    What I got out of it is that Elune could have theorietically intervened somehow. Probably not in a grand blinding flash of light, but maybe in a more subtle way by maybe stopping Sylvanas somehow, or giving Tyrande or Malfurion a boost to prevent Saurfang from managing to attack Malfurion from behind.
    Maybe, and maybe not. The degree to which Elune could have intervened, *if* she could've intervened, is unknown and likely inscrutable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    What I guess we are supposed to conclude then is that Elune didnt intervene either because she distincly needed the Nelves to die for the greater good of saving Ardenweald (which form her point of view would prevent Zovaal from gaining power) or she couldnt/didnt want to directly intervene in what she might have assumed were mortal affairs. Elune didnt know Zovaal was plotting anything, and therefore probably didnt know that Sylvanas was his agent either, so from her point of view I guess she probably just saw it as a run of the mill war.
    My take is that Elune couldn't stop what was happening at Teldrassil as part and parcel of mortal determination and free will, more or less. If Elune could intervene anywhere and everywhere then she'd never be able to stop - from the War of the Ancients to the War of the Satyr, to the Shifting Sands, and beyond. Her intercessions tend to be small and indirect, such as preserving Tyrande while thousands of Night Elves died at Suramar. All she could really do for Teldrassil is an attempt to ensure the dead served a purpose in the greater scheme of things (e.g. by going to Ardenweald), and potentially setting up a means for them to perhaps be reborn. But she couldn't account for Zovaal's machinations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Regardless its a case where a big question was asked on why Elune didnt directly intervene to stop Sylvanas. And while I guess the reasoning works if you make some assumptions and stretch to reach conclusions there obvious outcome here is that Elune didnt stop Teldrassil burning because of a misunderstanding, which is horribly weak as a resolution goes.
    Elune is a goddess in service to a system that is likely beyond easy understanding from a mortal perspective, and she could very well be subject to rules and mandates that are prescribed by the metacosm. That doesn't make her evil or even ambivalent, it just means she's constrained or inscrutable from the perspective of her worshippers. She may not even have free will, as she could be an extension of a mechanical force woven into the Warcraft universe's framework. It's probably not meant for us to know, in other words.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  7. #507
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    My take is that Elune couldn't stop what was happening at Teldrassil as part and parcel of mortal determination and free will, more or less. If Elune could intervene anywhere and everywhere then she'd never be able to stop - from the War of the Ancients to the War of the Satyr, to the Shifting Sands, and beyond. Her intercessions tend to be small and indirect, such as preserving Tyrande while thousands of Night Elves died at Suramar. All she could really do for Teldrassil is an attempt to ensure the dead served a purpose in the greater scheme of things (e.g. by going to Ardenweald), and potentially setting up a means for them to perhaps be reborn. But she couldn't account for Zovaal's machinations.
    But Elune intervened in that war. He saved Tyrande's Ass and made her a Leader.
    They essentially won for her. Without her there was no leader.

  8. #508
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    But Elune intervened in that war. He saved Tyrande's Ass and made her a Leader.
    They essentially won for her. Without her there was no leader.
    Elune did intervene, but she didn't make Tyrande a leader - the Night Elven people did that themselves. Tyrande also wasn't very instrumental in the victory during the War of the Ancients (by no fault of her own having been imprisoned for most of it). One could say that without Tyrande Night Elven history would be very different than it is now, sure; and you would have Elune to thank or blame for that depending on your perspective.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  9. #509
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Elune did intervene, but she didn't make Tyrande a leader - the Night Elven people did that themselves. Tyrande also wasn't very instrumental in the victory during the War of the Ancients (by no fault of her own having been imprisoned for most of it). One could say that without Tyrande Night Elven history would be very different than it is now, sure; and you would have Elune to thank or blame for that depending on your perspective.
    Blame XD.
    But on the subject he could give Malfurion a hand and save the tree. So it was in her power to save the tree ... and we add that the Kaldorei accuse her of abandoning them.

    What I am going to do is not mean that Elune snaps the Fingers and the Horde dies suddenly.

  10. #510
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aceperson View Post
    i just wanted a god with some freaking common sense. there is a cycle of life and death that has the fuel of anima and has gone undisrupted for MILLENIA (don't know if there is a word for millions of years so thousands will have to suffice) and suddenly there is a drought. instead of checking up on what was causing it, she just kills off her "favorite children" without a second thought.

    the greek gods were better than this crap and their believers openly knew the greek gods were fallible.
    To play devil's advocate for a bit... if not even those that LIVE in the Shadowlands know what is causing the drought (as apparently there was no more communication between Oribos and the other Shadowland zones), how could Elune, who lives outside of the Shadowlands, know exactly what was going on?
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  11. #511
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    Blame XD.
    But on the subject he could give Malfurion a hand and save the tree. So it was in her power to save the tree ... and we add that the Kaldorei accuse her of abandoning them.

    What I am going to do is not mean that Elune snaps the Fingers and the Horde dies suddenly.
    Again, we don't really know what is or isn't "in her power" as concerns degrees of intervention. This all depends on how you want to view her, where you want to place blame, etc. Personally speaking, I continue to blame Sylvanas and consider her the active and primary agent in the destruction of Teldrassil and the loss of kaldorei lives. You can't and shouldn't depend on outside powers to save you, so by extension you also can't and shouldn't blame them for failure to intercede. Sylvanas and the Horde are responsible for what happened at Teldrassil, IMO.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  12. #512
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Again, we don't really know what is or isn't "in her power" as concerns degrees of intervention. This all depends on how you want to view her, where you want to place blame, etc. Personally speaking, I continue to blame Sylvanas and consider her the active and primary agent in the destruction of Teldrassil and the loss of kaldorei lives. You can't and shouldn't depend on outside powers to save you, so by extension you also can't and shouldn't blame them for failure to intercede. Sylvanas and the Horde are responsible for what happened at Teldrassil, IMO.
    Not that is something that I believe that many misunderstand.
    Not that Elune is guilty and Sylvana and the Horde are not.

    It is that all three are guilty.

    In Elune's is guilty for not helping her people and it is perfectly logical that now they no longer adore her.
    Last edited by geco; 2021-07-28 at 03:06 PM.

  13. #513
    I haven't played in years, but I've always been a nelf main so I guess I should chime in.

    This story seems a little bit bad but not awful. We seem to have established that Elune views life and death a bit differently (as you'd expect), and also that she operates on a larger scale (and we also expected that). We also see that she was just as surprised by the events of this expansion as everyone (you could actually expect this as well, but it's not as amazing).

    The part that is kinda bad is, it ends most speculation about her prior actions being super competent. For instance, we've known since the start of this expansion that letting Sylvanas live was a bad idea, but until Elune was surprised about the fate of the souls, you could have assumed it was actually all part of a big plan- not because Elune is omniscient, but because she might be smarter than the average dryad, and that seems to be not exactly what we got.

    Regardless, however, we haven't seen Elune turn into a raid boss or be revealed to be a large grouping of crystals or a giant pile of salt. Additionally, since we actually saw what amounts to character development, there may be a moment where Elune actually reacts to this influx of knowledge by acting.

    I will say that I'm not at all confident that any of the trap-tropes- the tropes that are extremely obvious and result in Elune being diminished or destroyed- won't be triggered still. We may see Elune show up and get roundhouse kicked by the big bad end guy (only the hero NPCs may advance the plot, and only the players can defeat whatever raid boss the BBEG turns into) as a plot device. Or we may see her tricked a second and a third time, as this introduction has shown exactly one thing about her character (she can be fooled), and so the writers may double down on that.

    Anyway I don't think they ruined her, I think it's a respectful treatment and probably done within whatever constraints the "we don't know what expansion is next until we select it via a dartboard" method WoW uses to tell its story. We'll see I guess. I had a very low bar here, and thankfully we are still well above it.

  14. #514
    sylvanas dindunuffink, it was all...
    elune, it was all elune

    its garrosh all over again. Its thralls fault im literally hitler.

  15. #515
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    We can still kill in the end.
    And at the same time we do not need Sylvanas to have "Renewal" but to have Revenge against Zoveel.
    I think it comes down to the two graves conundrum, as it generally does. I'd have preferred, if she had to find her own will to live, in order to be able to relinquish the power, which was killing her, but in essence that is what the vengeance or renewal question kind of comes down to fundamentally, for Tyrande herself. Or have her make a hardline wrong choice based on her own thirst for vengeance, which would hardcore backfire so she may question her commitment to vengeance. (The Ardenweald sigil was a golden opportunity)


    But generally the common thread of vengeance in fiction is that the character allows themself to be dominated by their own emotions, for the sake of immideate gratification, at the cost of long term self sabotage and remaining miserable once the brief hit of dopamine fades. This especially applies to future threats down the line they can't see coming. It's not about forgiveness, but about strength to show mercy even when the foe doesn't deserve it.

    It's a consistent thing with Blizz lately that they want these emotional beats and occasionally overtelegraph them, but don't do the legwork to make it a proper arc so it leaves the audience feeling like it was unearned.
    Last edited by sighy; 2021-07-28 at 03:41 PM.

  16. #516
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    To play devil's advocate for a bit... if not even those that LIVE in the Shadowlands know what is causing the drought (as apparently there was no more communication between Oribos and the other Shadowland zones), how could Elune, who lives outside of the Shadowlands, know exactly what was going on?
    that's a good point. my rebuttal would be then why didn't the bastion or ardenweald leaders try to check up on oribos after it went silent? also, why didn't the primus bother to tell anyone about the jailer trying to escape when he predicted it in advance? it doesn't seem to matter how smart the character is, no one has common sense.

  17. #517
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    Not that is something that I believe that many misunderstand.
    Not that Elune is guilty and Sylvana and the Horde are not.

    It is that all three are guilty.

    In Elune's is guilty for not helping her people and it is perfectly logical that now they no longer adore her.
    Are you also mad that Elune didn't intervene to prevent all the death during the War of the Ancients and the Sundering? Or the War of the Shifting Sands? Or any of the subsequent Legion invasions including the one where they had to nuke Nordrassil? When Deathwing ripped the planet apart? When the Horde took advantage of the Cataclysm to invade and burn Ashenvale? When Sargeras stabbed the planet?

  18. #518
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    thats why i said whatnot, as we dont really know what she would do with them in "normal" circumstances...
    she LITERALY said it, that she did send them AFTER the tragedy, like, how can anyone understand it in any other way that she intervened (or actualy didnt intervene) in normal afterlife proces after the tree was burned is beyond my understanding...
    to me its crystal clear...
    Just because she is saying tragedy, doesn't mean she didn't cause it.

    Here is the contention, she says she heard the cries of Ardenweald.
    Ardenweald has been crying since Legion maybe before when the cycle was broken.
    It's been a long time for her to be sitting on her hands to just so happen to have the Attack on Teldrassil to occur and for her to be like "ohh this is good, off to Ardenweald with you, how convenient."
    EXCEPT
    Dead NE are almost certainly going to Ardenweald anyway. So why would she say "I sent them to you", she doesn't send shit there, the Arbiter does. If she had any control over the souls, they would have made it to Ardenweald regardless of the Arbiter not functioning, because she would have personally skipped that step of the Arbiter judging them.
    Her next line, "I've condemned them." Seeing as she doesn't have any control over where they are actual going to go, this can only mean one thing. She set about the circumstances that lead to them dying and being released into the cycle of death which she incorrectly assumed would lead them directly to Ardenweald.

    If you are forced to sacrifice 50k people to save countless more, that sacrifice is still a tragedy, but it was done for a greater purpose.

  19. #519
    Quote Originally Posted by aceperson View Post
    that's a good point. my rebuttal would be then why didn't the bastion or ardenweald leaders try to check up on oribos after it went silent? also, why didn't the primus bother to tell anyone about the jailer trying to escape when he predicted it in advance? it doesn't seem to matter how smart the character is, no one has common sense.
    A character can only ever be as smart as the writer...

  20. #520
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aceperson View Post
    that's a good point. my rebuttal would be then why didn't the bastion or ardenweald leaders try to check up on oribos after it went silent? also, why didn't the primus bother to tell anyone about the jailer trying to escape when he predicted it in advance? it doesn't seem to matter how smart the character is, no one has common sense.
    Because Oribos cut off the pathways between the zones, meaning no one could in or out of the Shadowland zones. Remember, in the leveling questline, we're slowly opening the pathways back to the zones.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

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