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  1. #521
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aceperson View Post
    that's a good point. my rebuttal would be then why didn't the bastion or ardenweald leaders try to check up on oribos after it went silent? also, why didn't the primus bother to tell anyone about the jailer trying to escape when he predicted it in advance? it doesn't seem to matter how smart the character is, no one has common sense.
    Because Oribos cut off the pathways between the zones, meaning no one could in or out of the Shadowland zones. Remember, in the leveling questline, we're slowly opening the pathways back to the zones.
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  2. #522
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Are you also mad that Elune didn't intervene to prevent all the death during the War of the Ancients and the Sundering? Or the War of the Shifting Sands? Or any of the subsequent Legion invasions including the one where they had to nuke Nordrassil? When Deathwing ripped the planet apart? When the Horde took advantage of the Cataclysm to invade and burn Ashenvale? When Sargeras stabbed the planet?
    I repeat according to Tyrande all those times he intervened.
    Even in half of the ones you said, there are cannon moments where she intervenes.

    In other words, if Tyrande and the kaldorei had not told us at BFA that Elune abandoned them I would not assume that Elune abandoned them only that she failed to carry their souls.

  3. #523
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    In other words, if Tyrande and the kaldorei had not told us at BFA that Elune abandoned them I would not assume that Elune abandoned them only that she failed to carry their souls.
    Kind of a problem with tell don't show storytelling, when you decide to tell wildly different self contradicting accounts of the same fucking event.

  4. #524
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Maybe, and maybe not. The degree to which Elune could have intervened, *if* she could've intervened, is unknown and likely inscrutable.



    My take is that Elune couldn't stop what was happening at Teldrassil as part and parcel of mortal determination and free will, more or less. If Elune could intervene anywhere and everywhere then she'd never be able to stop - from the War of the Ancients to the War of the Satyr, to the Shifting Sands, and beyond. Her intercessions tend to be small and indirect, such as preserving Tyrande while thousands of Night Elves died at Suramar. All she could really do for Teldrassil is an attempt to ensure the dead served a purpose in the greater scheme of things (e.g. by going to Ardenweald), and potentially setting up a means for them to perhaps be reborn. But she couldn't account for Zovaal's machinations.



    Elune is a goddess in service to a system that is likely beyond easy understanding from a mortal perspective, and she could very well be subject to rules and mandates that are prescribed by the metacosm. That doesn't make her evil or even ambivalent, it just means she's constrained or inscrutable from the perspective of her worshippers. She may not even have free will, as she could be an extension of a mechanical force woven into the Warcraft universe's framework. It's probably not meant for us to know, in other words.
    It's not that the explanation doesnt make sense. Certianly from Elunes perspective it seemed quite simple: Do not directly intervene in the affairs of Sylvanas burning the world tree. It will kill thousands of Night Elves, but they would all likely be sent to Ardenweald, living forever tending to the wild gods they revere, and ending the drought that threatens all life.

    However, that doesnt stop the big reveal as to why Elune didnt intervene being that she simply didnt realize that the machine of death was broken, and that Sylvanas was working for the Jailer.
    We were teased a sizeable reveal on why Elune would let this happen, why she would let Sylvanas go on to burn Teldrassil even when A Good War seemed to confirm she could have stopped her. And in the end the big reveal is simply that Elune and the Winter Queen have a bad phone connection and didnt manage to communicate the gravity of the situation properly.


    What really makes this reveal sting though is that it seems to all but confirm that there was no grand plan for why Teldrassil burned other than cement Sylvanas as a villain, which in turn only made her eventual redemption all the more galling to attempt.
    Teldrassil burned down, killing thousands, and the end result was Sylvanas being too evil for a redemption and Elune coming across like a bit absent-minded.
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  5. #525
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    So does that mean a lengthy 100 paragraph thread from you called "What Night Elves and Elune's Relationship *Really* Should Be About" is on the way?
    No, it's a waste of my time.. hehe

    I mean, htis isn't bad or incorrect, it's new stuff, but it still hasn't explained or solidified the earlier stuff and connections. It's either because they haven't got ot it, don't know about it, ignored it, or re-written it, and you just can't tell.. Is older original lore now null and void?

    The lore can accommodate both, this could be a new side to Elune we haven't seen. She was never associated with life or the forest, and maybe she still isn't, maybe that's the realm of her death counterpart, and there is a lot more than being a "life panntheon".. but who knows.


    Are they making Elune into a nature goddess? They can, but why? we have the wild gods, the emerald dream and a lot of established lore there, Elune showed and signified the dark elf side of the night elves and was strongly connected to their arcane.

    sure we can re-write this to say it's the night elves natural arcane connection that makes them manifest Elune's power as arcane instead of nature because that's what is natural to them, whereas nature was taught by Cenarius.. but who knows.

    It could be none of this invalidates previous lore, but a lot of things that haven't been explained but need to be explained are still mysteriously absent, whereas somethings that really should be the last to ever be revealed or not revealed at all we are seeing more off now.

    anyway, you have to take it face value, and enjoy the moments.
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  6. #526
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    "Remember, Alliance (and especially Night Elves), if you're a victim and seek justice for the wrongs against you, you're just as bad as the perpetrators of genocide."
    - Blizzard for more than twenty years

    Why is anyone surprised? Told you the current writers would only wreck Elune if they touched her.
    It's true and it hurts after being invested in the lore/story.

  7. #527
    Bloodsail Admiral Leodric's Avatar
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    I refuse to believe that Blizzard isn't writing the lore so bad on purpose. This has to be some kind of 5D-chess social experiment. Just sad!

  8. #528
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    It's not that the explanation doesnt make sense. Certianly from Elunes perspective it seemed quite simple: Do not directly intervene in the affairs of Sylvanas burning the world tree. It will kill thousands of Night Elves, but they would all likely be sent to Ardenweald, living forever tending to the wild gods they revere, and ending the drought that threatens all life.
    While there's a lot to be said against this cinematic, this is one thing I can't follow. Elune has never interfered on a mass scale including when all of reality was on the line in the War of the Ancients. At the time night elves were far more numerous and ruled the entire known world and in the event of their loss it wouldn't be a city burning down, as plenty did, but Sargeras destroying the world and then all others. She also didn't intervene on her own initiative in a meaningful way against C'thun in the War of the Shifting Sands or in either of the Legion returns in WC3 and Legion. She only helped out her favorites or, now in Shadowlands and BFA lore, being invoked through the Night Warrior ritual, whereupon she leaves the Night Warrior to do whatever.

    Her not doing so for Teldrassil doesn't require an explanation as it simply isn't all that important to anyone but the audience. Especially as, as you point out, unlike with the Legion or Old Gods there isn't even any threat to their eternal souls unless the flow of the afterlife is fucked. They'd just move on.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  9. #529
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    I'm surprised anyone is reading that much into what she said about Teldrassil. They died and Ardenweald was in need, so she tried to send them to a better realm that's crucial to their wilds.

    I don't think Elune has the power to directly intervene regularly in the first place. When she can, it's limited or channeled through an avatar.

    What's weird is that the WQ and Elune are possibly twins or not the original eternal ones of the weald/dream. Maybe they're one being split into two? And why can Sylvanas handle Jailer Juice, but Elune's magic is too potent? Elune's power/position fluctuates too much for proper speculation.
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  10. #530
    To copy what I said in a similar thread:
    I don't really get how people are misunderstanding things so much. Elune says "In the wake of tragedy", meaning "after tragedy happened". This doesn't imply she wanted this to happen, or that she was able to prevent it but chose not to.

    All that's confirmed here, is that Elune sent the fallen from Teldrassil towards Ardenweald in its time of need. Much like she sent Ysera there before.
    They didn't become wisps (as the new book confirms happens with Night Elves connected to their woodlands).
    They didn't linger as vengeful spirits (as we often see with Night Elves in ruins).
    They didn't linger in dreamforms in the Emerald Dream (As druids may do, as stated in book, and we see some dragons and such do after the Emerald Nightmare raid)
    Put to rest and sent off to Ardenweald.

    Yes, some may argue Elune is stupid for not knowing about the Maw thing. But, why would we expect a deity of the Life Realm to know about what's currently happening in the Death Realm? I see no reason why other pantheons would have special insight into the state of other realms. We've often seen the Titans get completely off guard of other Pantheons even existing.


    As an added bonus, for me it's now clearer why Elune withdrew her power from Tyrande when she tried to trade her life for Sylvanas'. In the questline, Ysera says she's had visions of Tyrande being vital to Ardenweald's survival. If Elune's, whose power is linked to the same place Ysera draws her visions from, has seen the same, of course she had to withdraw her power from Tyrande to prevent her self-destructing with Sylvanas.

  11. #531
    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    I'm surprised anyone is reading that much into what she said about Teldrassil. They died and Ardenweald was in need, so she tried to send them to a better realm that's crucial to their wilds.

    I don't think Elune has the power to directly intervene regularly in the first place. When she can, it's limited or channeled through an avatar.

    What's weird is that the WQ and Elune are possibly twins or not the original eternal ones of the weald/dream. Maybe they're one being split into two? And why can Sylvanas handle Jailer Juice, but Elune's magic is too potent? Elune's power/position fluctuates too much for proper speculation.
    It's not really that the explanation doesnt make sense, it's that its handwaving away what was once posited as a major mystery. Why would Elune seemingly abandon her followers to the Maw?
    And then it turned out that she just didnt fully understand what was really going on, and that there wasnt really any big plan.

    Imagine if the big twist for the Jailer was that he just didnt like the Maw, and would rather rule Ardenweald.
    It would be an understandable motivation with loads of small nuggets of lore we would get into, but it would also seem a bit anticlimactic to have such a major mystery like what the Jailer wants be explained away with such an arbitrary reason.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  12. #532
    Quote Originally Posted by Caerule View Post
    Elune says "In the wake of tragedy", meaning "after tragedy happened".
    This "tragedy" could be the drought and not necessarily the burning of the tree.

  13. #533
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    It's not really that the explanation doesnt make sense, it's that its handwaving away what was once posited as a major mystery. Why would Elune seemingly abandon her followers to the Maw?
    And then it turned out that she just didnt fully understand what was really going on, and that there wasnt really any big plan.

    Imagine if the big twist for the Jailer was that he just didnt like the Maw, and would rather rule Ardenweald.
    It would be an understandable motivation with loads of small nuggets of lore we would get into, but it would also seem a bit anticlimactic to have such a major mystery like what the Jailer wants be explained away with such an arbitrary reason.
    I guess it's because I didn't consider it that way at all. I assumed she didn't abandon them and expected an answer similar to what we got. She comes off as a fallible but non-callous god. I admittedly forgot she could even withhold spirits from the SLs in the first place, so that question didn't cross my mind.

    I'm more curious about Elune herself.
    Last edited by Rozz; 2021-07-28 at 06:42 PM.
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  14. #534
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    This "tragedy" could be the drought and not necessarily the burning of the tree.
    No, because the Winter Queen responds to that exact line with, "Oh.. The Great Tree"

  15. #535
    Writers at blizzard need to be fired and go to writing school.

  16. #536
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    It's not that the explanation doesnt make sense. Certianly from Elunes perspective it seemed quite simple: Do not directly intervene in the affairs of Sylvanas burning the world tree. It will kill thousands of Night Elves, but they would all likely be sent to Ardenweald, living forever tending to the wild gods they revere, and ending the drought that threatens all life.

    However, that doesnt stop the big reveal as to why Elune didnt intervene being that she simply didnt realize that the machine of death was broken, and that Sylvanas was working for the Jailer. We were teased a sizeable reveal on why Elune would let this happen, why she would let Sylvanas go on to burn Teldrassil even when A Good War seemed to confirm she could have stopped her. And in the end the big reveal is simply that Elune and the Winter Queen have a bad phone connection and didnt manage to communicate the gravity of the situation properly.
    That presumes she could intervene on such a level, or would - an open question, and one that all the prior evidence and characterization for Elune would point to the notion that she can't intervene on that level (and never has). I don't think either Elegy or a A Good War implied or promised that Elune would or could stop what happened at Teldrassil - there was a question of why she wasn't involved, but also an implication that Sylvanas at least believed Elune already had involved herself (possibly in saving Malfurion). I also don't think the Winter Queen and Elune can really communicate directly, they dwell in separate realms and represent fundamentally different forces. Even the Winter Queen's cries for aid came to Elune in the form of what seemed like a prayer, emotionality and force, but little context. Elune also wasn't privy to what was going on in the Shadowlands vis-a-vis the Maw and the Jailer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    What really makes this reveal sting though is that it seems to all but confirm that there was no grand plan for why Teldrassil burned other than cement Sylvanas as a villain, which in turn only made her eventual redemption all the more galling to attempt. Teldrassil burned down, killing thousands, and the end result was Sylvanas being too evil for a redemption and Elune coming across like a bit absent-minded.
    If Sylvanas is actually redeemed then yes, it would sting a great deal - but I'm not personally sold on that happening, even with Sylvanas' soul restored to her. It's a possibility, one I fervently hope doesn't come to pass, but it's not guaranteed by any means. Elune seemed to do what she could in light of the situation, and I don't really blame her for the ultimate result. I would imagine it is a bit disheartening from the kaldorei's perspective to learn their goddess is so limited, but that's not really her fault either. She is what she is, ultimately; not what people have built up in their imaginations (from the in-universe perspective).
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  17. #537
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    In the eyes of a deity maybe she thought the temporary pain was an appropriate price for eternal afterlife in the tree of death.
    Then why didn't she put Teldrassil to the torch herself?

  18. #538
    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    I'm surprised anyone is reading that much into what she said about Teldrassil. They died and Ardenweald was in need, so she tried to send them to a better realm that's crucial to their wilds.

    I don't think Elune has the power to directly intervene regularly in the first place. When she can, it's limited or channeled through an avatar.

    What's weird is that the WQ and Elune are possibly twins or not the original eternal ones of the weald/dream. Maybe they're one being split into two? And why can Sylvanas handle Jailer Juice, but Elune's magic is too potent? Elune's power/position fluctuates too much for proper speculation.
    Shooting from the hip it could have been the improvements from her deal with the Val'kyrs. We don't know the exact details for it outside of the general quality of life of no longer being a spirit posessing a rotted carcass.

    Or that she was more reserved about using it than Tyrande "assbalst grunts with a conjured moon" Whisperwind instead usually relying on her regular powers most of the time.

  19. #539
    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    What's weird is that the WQ and Elune are possibly twins or not the original eternal ones of the weald/dream. Maybe they're one being split into two? And why can Sylvanas handle Jailer Juice, but Elune's magic is too potent? Elune's power/position fluctuates too much for proper speculation.
    The real reason is because of the needs of the plot, but if you want an in-story reason it comes down to how their powers work. Elune's power is overcharging the body to breaking point and the body is the one who has to bear the burden of that. Sylvanas on the other hand has her powers on loan from another and her body isn't under as much strain. Plus, said powers are from a type of magic specifically based on control, to the point where it's literally the name (domination magic). On top of this Sylvanas being undead has a more resilient body and one that doesn't have many of the needs of a living one.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  20. #540
    I'm gonna be honest; I actually LIKE the idea that Elune willingly sacrificed her worshippers, to save her sister. Elune is essentially a "god" in the Warcraft mythos, and I kind of like the idea that she is less loyal to her followers than her own personal whims.

    What I *WILL* say is this; I don't like seeing Tyrande "purged" of the Night Warrior stuff, and I hope this doesn't go the route of "everyone getting along". At the same time, however, I would like to see Tyrande choosing "vengeance", without just making her an antagonist. I'd love to see Tyrande reclaim control of the Night Warrior and Elune's power, but when Elune is like "I was just trying to save my sister", Tyrande essentially respond "I don't give a FUCK, you let all of your worshipers die when they needed you the most, I'm TAKING this power you loaned me, and if I ever see you again, I'll find a way to kill a god for what you did".

    That would honestly be a pretty dope evolution for her character. Not that she be driven SOLELY by vengeance, but essentially saying "I'm putting my people first, by any means necessary". That feels congruent with Tyrande as a character, and would be a tragic but believable transition to her rejecting and even hating Elune.

    Also.... HOLY SHIT does Tyrande look awesome with the whole "starry skin". Not even gonna lie, I would legit be excited about Night Elves all over again, if they could unlock some kind of "upgrade" like that. And also, the more blackish-blue Night Warrior eyes she had when fighting Nathanos (the in-game eyes players got just don't look great, imo).

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