Page 28 of 40 FirstFirst ...
18
26
27
28
29
30
38
... LastLast
  1. #541
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    6,959
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The real reason is because of the needs of the plot, but if you want an in-story reason it comes down to how their powers work. Elune's power is overcharging the body to breaking point and the body is the one who has to bear the burden of that. Sylvanas on the other hand has her powers on loan from another and her body isn't under as much strain. Plus, said powers are from a type of magic specifically based on control, to the point where it's literally the name (domination magic). On top of this Sylvanas being undead has a more resilient body and one that doesn't have many of the needs of a living one.
    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    Shooting from the hip it could have been the improvements from her deal with the Val'kyrs. We don't know the exact details for it outside of the general quality of life of no longer being a spirit posessing a rotted carcass.

    Or that she was more reserved about using it than Tyrande "assbalst grunts with a conjured moon" Whisperwind instead usually relying on her regular powers most of the time.
    You both raise some fair points, but I still dislike it haha
    Moderator of the General Off-Topic, Politics, Lore, and RP Forums
    "If you have any concerns, let me know via PM. I'll do my best to assist you."

  2. #542
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    Omnipotent god-like being
    Citation needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    wasn't aware of what was going on in the afterlife.
    This is like complaining that Thrall doesn't know what Varian is thinking about. Elune isn't a member of the death pantheon and has no idea what they're doing. Apples and oranges.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    More and more i am awaiting the day for a radical "atheist" (for the lack of a better word) movement, whose sole goal is to eradicate the influence of any "divine forces" from Azeroth.
    Well that would be both impossible and stupid. Azeroth is a titan egg (order) and in the realm of the living (life). You could turn the titan into a fel titan (demon) or void titan... or maybe a light titan or death titan (unclear if those even exists) but in each situation you'd still have another set of divine forces to deal with.

    Non-existence is the only way to eradicate divine forces.

    Ironically, Sylvanas's goal (remake a new reality where we are in charge and have free will) is very close to what you asked for.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    I'm starting to buy more into the fact of a "Pantheon of Life" with Elune being apart of it.
    How much more on the nose and dumbed down do you need it to be? That's literally what you were told in game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    It’s stupid as it means she knew there was a drought so souls weren’t going to ardebweld yet she didn’t stop to think what was causing the drought and instead just figured the souls would end up there when others weren’t instead just sending them to the Maw. Instead of you know figuring out why there was a drought and keeping her “favoured people” alive.
    Because the concept of "alive" is moronic if there is an eternal afterlife to go to. Death is literally meaningless in WoW.
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  3. #543
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The real reason is because of the needs of the plot, but if you want an in-story reason it comes down to how their powers work. Elune's power is overcharging the body to breaking point and the body is the one who has to bear the burden of that. Sylvanas on the other hand has her powers on loan from another and her body isn't under as much strain. Plus, said powers are from a type of magic specifically based on control, to the point where it's literally the name (domination magic). On top of this Sylvanas being undead has a more resilient body and one that doesn't have many of the needs of a living one.
    Does Sylvanas even have that many abilities from the Jailer? Tyrande has noticeable changes in spades, whereas Sylvanas just has those chains as something definite she didnt have before. Could be something as simple as Tyrande getting ALL the powerups, which is what is killing her, whereas Sylvanas just got some abilities. She was afterall said to have joined the "Maw" covenant, and when the players joined a covenant we also got some tiny improvements to our base toolkit.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  4. #544
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagawithlegs View Post
    Why are people complaining that lore characters don't know the game's plot as much as the players do?
    Mostly due to reading comprehension stagnating at a grade school level.

    Even if someone had directly told Elune that the Shadowlands were messed up and all the souls were going to the Maw, she would have just said "that's impossible" and kept doing her thing. Because it had literally never happened before and was impossible, until it happened. And she has no way of knowing it happened.
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  5. #545
    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    Well that would be both impossible and stupid. Azeroth is a titan egg (order) and in the realm of the living (life). You could turn the titan into a fel titan (demon) or void titan... or maybe a light titan or death titan (unclear if those even exists) but in each situation you'd still have another set of divine forces to deal with.
    Imagine to simply reject the worship of comic forces and actively fight any influence of them on the world.
    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    Ironically, Sylvanas's goal (remake a new reality where we are in charge and have free will) is very close to what you asked for.
    Sylvanas allied herself with a cosmic force, so no.

  6. #546
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    So it is canon that Elune let the Kaldorei die to save her sister.
    Looks of souls who worked hard to serve him discarded as cannon fodder to achieve a goal.

    Now it all makes sense Blizzard and Elune are the same entity.


    My question would be.
    Also why did I kill the wardens in W3?
    Did you and i watch the same cinematic? She said "I heard your cries, felt your pain, and in the wake of tragedy, sent forth cascade of souls to sustain you." Meaning she normally turns the night elves into wisps when they die but now she turned them over to the winter queen to sustain her... Like where does she say that she let the Kaldorei die? LISTEN to the characters before you cry about something.

  7. #547
    Dreadlord froschhure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Lighthalzen, the City-State of Prosperity
    Posts
    982
    funny that people realize: worshipping idols and being sacrifised for personal agenda is not that nice.
    love WoWarcraft

  8. #548
    Quote Originally Posted by runepower View Post
    Did you and i watch the same cinematic? She said "I heard your cries, felt your pain, and in the wake of tragedy, sent forth cascade of souls to sustain you." Meaning she normally turns the night elves into wisps when they die but now she turned them over to the winter queen to sustain her... Like where does she say that she let the Kaldorei die? LISTEN to the characters before you cry about something.
    1 Elune does not make them fancy fires.
    2 Then according to your logic Elune did not let them be faut fire and made them die. Therefore I literally kill them like faut fire so that they go directly to SL?
    3 Eluna herself says that I condemn them so she did something that she made that ended in SL and therefore in the jaws. LISTEN to the characters before you cry about something? It is up to the interpretation of each one where they had to go instead of to SL.

  9. #549
    Bwonsamdi>>>>>>>>>elune

  10. #550
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Does Sylvanas even have that many abilities from the Jailer? Tyrande has noticeable changes in spades, whereas Sylvanas just has those chains as something definite she didnt have before. Could be something as simple as Tyrande getting ALL the powerups, which is what is killing her, whereas Sylvanas just got some abilities. She was afterall said to have joined the "Maw" covenant, and when the players joined a covenant we also got some tiny improvements to our base toolkit.
    It's kind of hard to visualise and powerscale characters, who are reserved and make a conscious effort to avoid fighting most of the time, at least on even footing and never show all their cards. So i can see it blindsiding a lot of people, when she actually does flex. She's never been a pushover, even when Scourge and has only become more powerful since then, in all likelyhood. I agree that the Saurfang explosion and Chains are the two distinct new abilities we know beyond reasonable doubt were leant by the Jailer.

  11. #551
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    1 Elune does not make them fancy fires.
    2 Then according to your logic Elune did not let them be faut fire and made them die. Therefore I literally kill them like faut fire so that they go directly to SL?
    3 Eluna herself says that I condemn them so she did something that she made that ended in SL and therefore in the jaws. LISTEN to the characters before you cry about something? It is up to the interpretation of each one where they had to go instead of to SL.
    First of all Elune does turn them into wisps when they die, like how would night elves turn into wisps but troll don't since night elves are just evolved trolls.
    Secondly when the night elves burned in the tree she decided to turn the souls over to the shadowlands instead of making them wisps however she didn't know that the arbitor was out of commision and the souls were going directly into the maw. And how would Elune even know that the arbitor is out of commision since not even the winter queen and the archon didn't know why there were no souls coming into their realms. That was all explained when we the players went into their realms.
    And lastly Elune did say that she condemned the souls of the night elves after hearing from the winter queen that the souls went to the maw instead.

    So again you haven't actually listened to the characters and the words that are coming out of their mouths. Neither did you actually read the things i said to you.

  12. #552
    Quote Originally Posted by runepower View Post
    First of all Elune does turn them into wisps when they die, like how would night elves turn into wisps but troll don't since night elves are just evolved trolls.
    Secondly when the night elves burned in the tree she decided to turn the souls over to the shadowlands instead of making them wisps however she didn't know that the arbitor was out of commision and the souls were going directly into the maw. And how would Elune even know that the arbitor is out of commision since not even the winter queen and the archon didn't know why there were no souls coming into their realms. That was all explained when we the players went into their realms.
    And lastly Elune did say that she condemned the souls of the night elves after hearing from the winter queen that the souls went to the maw instead.

    So again you haven't actually listened to the characters and the words that are coming out of their mouths. Neither did you actually read the things i said to you.
    Then Elune took away the possibility of being wisps. It's like God doesn't let you go to heaven or like he murdered them in their second life (and now they have 3 lives).

    And secondly, Elune never really says something like let them become Wisp. What's more, There is Wisp in BFA and Maiev can summon a few souls. So all those mechanisms seemed to keep working.

    I think maybe the problem is that you hear things they don't say. Elune says only that he did something that condemned the Kaldorei. How that is is not clear. Do I condemn them to send them to SL? So the Kaldorei don't Normally go to SL?

    PS: There are sources that say that the wisps come from the forest or Aessina herself. Is there one that says "they come from Elune"?

  13. #553
    Elune did to the nelves the same thing she did to ysera. Intervened at the moment of their deaths, only she wasnt aware of the maw situation.

    Idk why some of you think she is some super omnipotent being that knows everything that's happening in the cosmos and it's 6 realms.

    She also didn't "allow" the nelves to die. She not going to interfere with everything bad that happens to the nelves, otherwise she'd intervened for a lot of other nelf related events. War of the ancients, ashenvale, fucking death of her lover and son by the hands of the horde. Come on guys...

  14. #554
    The Patient vondevon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    California
    Posts
    316
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    She can also cheat the system and fast-track people to Ardenweald like she did with Ysera successsfully and tried to do with the Teldrassil night elves.
    She didn't fast track Ysera or Ursoc. It's implied that both spirits went to Ardenweald naturally, and that the mechanism of Death only broke sometime late into Legion and before the start of the War of Thorns.

    The story is supremely poorly told.
    Yes and I think Blizzard has always struggled with this. You've got a 20+ year-old story being delivered via multiple mediums, many players who have tuned in 'mid-season' or miss in-game content altogether by not playing every patch cycle, and who frequently skip quest text or otherwise ignore any lore that isn't presented in a cinematic.

    The characters in the story didn't actually know the Maw was responsible or that the Jailer was involved until far into the story and we're meant to come away with the impression that the Winter Queen didn't specify as she didn't know herself so Elune helped her out upon being called. We as the audience though know that the Jailer did it as the premise and other gods like Bwonsamdi, who is implied to be on a lot lower level, know and act accordingly. Elune is thus a patch late and off-topic.
    When we first arrive in the Shadowlands, nobody knows what is going on. The realms are all isolated from one another so all they know is that souls have stopped arriving in their realm for some reason. Apart from the parties involved in making it so, the attendants in Oribos are the only ones who know that the Arbiter is offline and that all souls are pouring into the Maw, but contacting the other realms is not part of their Purpose so they just don't.

    It's a supremely demystifying, pointless cutscene, redeemable only if the intention really was to depict the gods as fickle, manipulative morons.
    The running theme for some time seems to be that all the cosmic forces suck because they're all dedicated to a Purpose that compels them to screw with the lives of those who dwell in the material plane. We've seen in past expansions that Nature unchecked can really ruin things. Order and the machinations of the Titans are frequently shortsighted and useless. The Light is fanatical and seeks supremacy just like every other force in existence.

    Azeroth is the third-world-country rich in resources that the global powers squabble over, never mind how many lives they destroy in the process. Sylvanas thought she was a freedom fighter until she realized that the guerrilla general she fought for just wants to establish himself as dictator.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    And the Jailer is still a cosmic Force, hence it doesn't fill the criteria.
    A deposed cosmic force, stripped of his position/purpose and replaced by the Arbiter.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    I think maybe the problem is that you hear things they don't say. Elune says only that he did something that condemned the Kaldorei. How that is is not clear. Do I condemn them to send them to SL? So the Kaldorei don't Normally go to SL?
    Elune: I did not spare them so their souls would pass to you
    Winter Queen: Death machine broke, they went to the Maw instead
    Elune: Shit, then I guess I condemned them

    It literally could not be more clear what she meant.

  15. #555
    Herald of the Titans RaoBurning's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Arizona, US
    Posts
    2,629
    Maybe beating the dead horse a bit, but putting the spoiler tag and then spoiler itself immediately after in the title is a bit counterproductive. But thanks I guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    This is America. We always have warm dead bodies.
    if we had confidence that the President clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said that.

  16. #556
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    3,712
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Does Sylvanas even have that many abilities from the Jailer? Tyrande has noticeable changes in spades, whereas Sylvanas just has those chains as something definite she didnt have before. Could be something as simple as Tyrande getting ALL the powerups, which is what is killing her, whereas Sylvanas just got some abilities. She was afterall said to have joined the "Maw" covenant, and when the players joined a covenant we also got some tiny improvements to our base toolkit.
    we havent seen many examples but id say shes been given a fair bit. for example. the blast she killed saurfang with. ppl said "they have never seen that kind of magic before". we just havent seen her use much of it, outside in cinematic or story form. However. In her fight she literally does tear shit apart. Id wager a guess that is not her banshee powers given thanks to frostmourne raising her, but the Jailer.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    Bwonsamdi>>>>>>>>>elune
    right? he saved his people!
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  17. #557
    Quote Originally Posted by vondevon View Post
    Elune: I did not spare them so their souls would pass to you
    Winter Queen: Death machine broke, they went to the Maw instead
    Elune: Shit, then I guess I condemned them

    It literally could not be more clear what she meant.
    Sorry. spare?

  18. #558
    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    I'm gonna be honest; I actually LIKE the idea that Elune willingly sacrificed her worshippers, to save her sister. Elune is essentially a "god" in the Warcraft mythos, and I kind of like the idea that she is less loyal to her followers than her own personal whims.
    I feel the same. Whether it was Elune sacrificing the Night Elves into the cycle or just not keeping them as wisps and letting them go to her sister, this makes Elune feel much more god-like. Though I don't think of it as being less loyal: Elune is more like a farmer that decides to sacrifice her cattle to feed a starving relative. It doesn't mean she doesn't care for her cattle, just that the needs of the "gods" outweight the needs of the cattle/worshippers.

  19. #559
    Quote Originally Posted by Caerule View Post
    To copy what I said in a similar thread:
    I don't really get how people are misunderstanding things so much. Elune says "In the wake of tragedy", meaning "after tragedy happened". This doesn't imply she wanted this to happen, or that she was able to prevent it but chose not to.

    All that's confirmed here, is that Elune sent the fallen from Teldrassil towards Ardenweald in its time of need. Much like she sent Ysera there before.
    They didn't become wisps (as the new book confirms happens with Night Elves connected to their woodlands).
    They didn't linger as vengeful spirits (as we often see with Night Elves in ruins).
    They didn't linger in dreamforms in the Emerald Dream (As druids may do, as stated in book, and we see some dragons and such do after the Emerald Nightmare raid)
    Put to rest and sent off to Ardenweald.

    Yes, some may argue Elune is stupid for not knowing about the Maw thing. But, why would we expect a deity of the Life Realm to know about what's currently happening in the Death Realm? I see no reason why other pantheons would have special insight into the state of other realms. We've often seen the Titans get completely off guard of other Pantheons even existing.


    As an added bonus, for me it's now clearer why Elune withdrew her power from Tyrande when she tried to trade her life for Sylvanas'. In the questline, Ysera says she's had visions of Tyrande being vital to Ardenweald's survival. If Elune's, whose power is linked to the same place Ysera draws her visions from, has seen the same, of course she had to withdraw her power from Tyrande to prevent her self-destructing with Sylvanas.
    I'd agree with all this. Furthermore I think players in general look at 'death' as some kind of big event and all-round-bad-thing. Its not, in the context of a a cosmic scale for beings like Elune and the Winter Queen.

    Death is just just another step in a presumably infinite Great Cycle of life<->death. Only US MORTALS look at death as an enormous moment/end/defining point - these guys would see it merely as a page-change in a book thats filled with page changes.

    So when people say things like "elune didnt stop them DYING" - like dying is some kind of monumentally big thing.. its not really. Its just a page change to Elune level beings on a cosmic scale in the great cycle.

    Elune, from her pov, was merely guiding them safely to the next page. Thats not so bad, is it?

    I dont think its Elunes role nor place to interfere with EVERYTHING that results in death (even if the result of horrible actions like Sylvanas' genocide) in the realm of life. Elune is not meant to be God - with a capital g - that is the ultimate authority deciding who should live and should die - and intervene in every single situation she doesnt like.

    I hate to break it to people - but if Elune was God, with a capital g who was all-seeing+all-knowing+all-powerful, shed be pretty boring. The fact that she appears to be NOT all-knowing, NOT all-powerful, and NOT all infallible - makes her much more interesting...

    Elune..... made a mistake. Thats pretty interesting - imo. And we can talk about why. But the fact she made a mistake is a good thing, I think, for her character.
    Last edited by TyrianFC; 2021-07-29 at 06:36 AM.

  20. #560
    Rule of thumb in any kind of universe, don't trust deities they all have their own agenda.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •