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  1. #561
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Does Sylvanas even have that many abilities from the Jailer? Tyrande has noticeable changes in spades, whereas Sylvanas just has those chains as something definite she didnt have before. Could be something as simple as Tyrande getting ALL the powerups, which is what is killing her, whereas Sylvanas just got some abilities. She was afterall said to have joined the "Maw" covenant, and when the players joined a covenant we also got some tiny improvements to our base toolkit.
    Trying to parse this without the newest batch of explanatory retcons from the upcoming book that tells us when exactly she gets into the deal with the Blue Man and what it entails is a fool's errand. If I was forced to take a stab at it I'd say Sylvanas was about at what she can usually do up until the tree went up in flames and her power escalated in line with the Azeroth deaths until she was strong enough to take on the Lich King. Beyond just being able to do all the chains and smoke stuff she does for bits of BFA and in her boss encounter, she's also got stat boosts coming up. It's more an enhancement of what she can already do than what Tyrande can. In that sense I'd put everything before Teldrassil as being on her, with what follows after being more representative of her growing power boost.

    However, Sylvanas's abilities have always been vague and them punting her deal with the Jailer way back to Cataclysm puts other things in question. She's always been the power house Horde-side except for maybe Thrall. Will they retcon that bit where she was able to inexplicably open a portal and chain Koltira into her bondage dungeon as being the first on-screen use of those powers? It wouldn't be the worst thing if so and it would put her being able to fight off Malfurion into a bit more plausible field.

    Quote Originally Posted by vondevon View Post
    She didn't fast track Ysera or Ursoc. It's implied that both spirits went to Ardenweald naturally, and that the mechanism of Death only broke sometime late into Legion and before the start of the War of Thorns.
    I'll give you Ursoc but it's very heavily implied that she intervened specifically for Ysera to put her in the stars and that involved earmarking her for Ardenweald. The Winter Queen certainly thinks that Ysera is somehow special. In any case both were before the system broke and Ursoc, as a wild god, would have ended up in Ardenweald anyway. Ysera'd have a pretty good shot at it too.

    The main thing is that I can't read Elune's comment about sending souls as anything except her earmarking them for delivery to Ardenweald on her sister's behalf.

    Yes and I think Blizzard has always struggled with this. You've got a 20+ year-old story being delivered via multiple mediums, many players who have tuned in 'mid-season' or miss in-game content altogether by not playing every patch cycle, and who frequently skip quest text or otherwise ignore any lore that isn't presented in a cinematic.

    When we first arrive in the Shadowlands, nobody knows what is going on. The realms are all isolated from one another so all they know is that souls have stopped arriving in their realm for some reason. Apart from the parties involved in making it so, the attendants in Oribos are the only ones who know that the Arbiter is offline and that all souls are pouring into the Maw, but contacting the other realms is not part of their Purpose so they just don't.
    I entirely forgot that the other realms didn't actually know the drought was anything but exclusive to their land. Here's the thing. With Shadowlands as compared to some previous expansions, most of this crap does have an obtuse explanation delivered out of sequence at some stage. See my torturous reconstruction of how Elune and the Winter Queen's actions gel with how the delivery of souls works and how Elune earmarking souls but neither being able to check where they go or requiring them to still pass through Oribos and ergo go to the Maw makes sense. One of the points of failure as a narrative though, beyond just the happenstance that this is explained in elaborate disconnected ways across multiple quests, which admittedly is likely the intent given Danuser preferring presenting everything from the characters' perspective if possible, is that it doesn't turn into any less of an idiot plot.

    The Eternal Ones are aware that the Arbiter is a robot because they presumably made her. Nevertheless they install no contingency or means of contacting each other except one in the hands of the maintenance staff. Their construct on the other hand is keyed into all the realms so if she suffers a fatal error all contact is cut and the realms will just slowly fall apart. And they know she can be destroyed or defeated because they themselves did it with her predecessor and because the Legion, the Light and the Void have all made attempts on the Shadowlands before. Nevermind this though, the fact that they're conceited and out of touch is about plausible, let's go back about knowing of the Maw. As the narrative actually emphasizes all the Kyrian know that the cause of the drought is everyone going to super hell. The Kyrian can also travel across the Shadowlands realms in the ways the others can and when you tell Adrestes about the Maw he just shrugs. Ergo, everyone in Bastion knows about the Maw but no one from the Archon down does anything about it or takes any steps to solve it until you pop along. Disregard the lack of infrastructure and contingencies or what have you, the only reason this calamity goes the way it does is because everyone in Bastion is an utter fucking imbecile and refuses to communicate or stop throwing souls into turbo hell.

    Forget that too though, let's suppose no Kyrian sticks around for very long after dropping the soul off or that the bearers simply don't return or some other contrivance. You know who's both with the Winter Queen and knows about the Maw and knows about Sylvanas? Bwonsamdi. He knows the entire plot and yet he never bothers to tell the Winter Queen or really anyone until its too late. Now, the real reason for this is because originally Bwonsamdi was scheduled to be an antagonist and they turned him positive due to fan response, but this reason has no weight in story so he just comes across as uncommunicative for no reason. Maybe he was too threatened by Mueh'zala to act? Whatever the case we have several axes where the mechanics of the plot are contingent on every participant being short bus riders.

    Azeroth is the third-world-country rich in resources that the global powers squabble over, never mind how many lives they destroy in the process. Sylvanas thought she was a freedom fighter until she realized that the guerrilla general she fought for just wants to establish himself as dictator.
    As said above I think Shadowlands is marginally better executed than it gets credit for and most everything has an explanation squirreled away somewhere unlike say BFA or TBC. I've enjoyed it more than I expected. But that taken into account and foregoing the whole business about how everyone involved must be at least somewhat stupid for the plot to work, you still have the elephant in the room, which is whether this was a good concept to go into. Demystifying death and the setting's previously only god is a humongous deal, plunging us headfirst into the cosmic fare after having killed every other plot point and reduced every cast member into a bland husk is an even bigger deal, the requisite retcons it requires has a lot of buy-in. Simply being competent internally doesn't suffice for what the story requires. It needs to knock it out of the park in every field and be immediately digestible because of the scope of what it's trying to address. It doesn't do so. Can you finagle an explanation on Elune's actions now that she's a character, same as Joe Blow telling you to kill 8 boars? Yes. But you should never be in the position to have to in the first place and what you get for it is fuck all except a continuation of the most dreadful thematic and story beats regarding night elves from Vanilla on down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    But what really baffles me is that the Elves seem to be FINE with it. Literally 5 minutes later Tyrande is happily evoking Elune's name again. The goddess who literally threw them to the fire for her aloof reasons after millenia of worship by the Nightelves. Elune has her divine view point, but the Elves do not have that luxury. For them this all appears as nothing less then a betrayal by the one they trusted in most.
    Sure, maybe they could understand Elune's reasons, but not that fast and Tyrande isn't the most reasonable person at the best of times..
    It's hilarious and likely unintentional given how the narrative is desperately trying to get you to believe that this is a satisfying ending and that Tyrande did a good deed of her own volition, but you actually can piece this together. Like all parts of this cinematic, it suddenly becomes entirely coherent if you assume that Elune is a manipulative bitch engineering her champion into a position where she can reconcile with her sister and restore her realm. In this case Tyrande mentions that she only remembers what went on while she was the Night Warrior, at the very least in the last cinematic as outside herself, not fully aware. She has no actual personal connection to those times. She only remembers Elune telling her there's a divine plan, not that Elune admitted to her sister that actually she kind of screwed it up when she dropped all those night elves into hell.

    Tyrande Whisperwind says: I was present for every moment, and yet... outside myself. As much a witness as you were.
    Shandris Feathermoon says: So much beauty in her voice. And sorrow as well. The tear...
    Tyrande Whisperwind says: Was mine as much as hers.
    Shandris Feathermoon says: The Winter Queen spoke of a purpose for the souls of our people. What did she mean?
    Tyrande Whisperwind says: That, Elune did not tell me, daughter. Not yet.
    Literally lobotomized into being a peacenik.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  2. #562
    Quote Originally Posted by KhazzahK View Post
    No, because the Winter Queen responds to that exact line with, "Oh.. The Great Tree"
    Because, apparently, she didn't know they were all funneled into the Maw.
    I'm tempted to apply for a moderator position, just so i can go moderator on your asses.

  3. #563
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Literally lobotomized into being a peacenik.
    Blizz is utterly horrible at writing the faction war or just basic faction conflict for that matter, this outcome might be for the best, considering the alternatives.

  4. #564
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Blizz is utterly horrible at writing the faction war or just basic faction conflict for that matter, this outcome might be for the best, considering the alternatives.
    Their own fault. They created a setup in which we have a war neither side can win OR lose, because they need both to be equal to uphold the game's balance (ostensibly, anyway). That only goes so far, and so it's no surprise that every time they even hint at some sort of faction conflict it VERY quickly turns into "okay, but let's put this on hold to combat this REAL evil together". That's a pretty shitty constraint to write for.

  5. #565
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Blizz is utterly horrible at writing the faction war or just basic faction conflict for that matter, this outcome might be for the best, considering the alternatives.
    They've occasionally written good zone-wide faction conflict. They've yet to write a big bad villain who didn't act like an amateur lobotomy victim.

    Plus, I prefer bitching about Anduin to writing about Shadowlands. Now that he's a pod person controlled by a cosmic bore all other characters who exist to rotate in his orbit lose direction and so does the plot. So we're left discussing whether the sunflower lady is a moron or not based on spacial dynamics that are simultaneously obscure and stupid.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  6. #566
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    They've occasionally written good zone-wide faction conflict. They've yet to write a big bad villain who didn't act like an amateur lobotomy victim.
    .
    It is the absolute exception, but the problem remains they somehow manage to write the faction conflict even worse than their lobotomized big bads.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Their own fault. They created a setup in which we have a war neither side can win OR lose, because they need both to be equal to uphold the game's balance (ostensibly, anyway). That only goes so far, and so it's no surprise that every time they even hint at some sort of faction conflict it VERY quickly turns into "okay, but let's put this on hold to combat this REAL evil together". That's a pretty shitty constraint to write for.
    Well of course it is their own fault, since blizz lacks the skills for nuanced writing and as a consequence such storylines are utter garbage 90% of the time , which also falls apart the moment you take a closer look at it. I just don't expect them to become better at it with their track record of decades of very superficial writing.

  7. #567
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Imagine to simply reject the worship of comic forces and actively fight any influence of them on the world.
    I dread the day they make this expansion and every living being on Azeroth gets transformed into a reddit atheist.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  8. #568
    jesus.. are people still saying Elune killed them? She states "AFTER THE TRAGEDY" as in post burning, post world tree bbq..

  9. #569
    Bloodsail Admiral Cloudmaker's Avatar
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    Are wisps actually able to survive if the Great Tree was burned? I always thought they are somehow connected to woodlands, which means Elune just wanted to help.
    #SaveAlgalon

  10. #570
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    Are wisps actually able to survive if the Great Tree was burned? I always thought they are somehow connected to woodlands, which means Elune just wanted to help.
    Teldrassil existed barely over a decade, why should wisps be bound to it?

  11. #571
    Bloodsail Admiral Cloudmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Teldrassil existed barely over a decade, why should wisps be bound to it?
    I’m not saying they are bound to this particular tree but to the trees in general. I’m not sure. Can they survive on their own ?
    #SaveAlgalon

  12. #572
    Dreadlord Smallfruitbat's Avatar
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    Blizzards writing is at its best when they are not trying to do all this 5D chess and intrigue. Unfortunately, here we are.

    A far better reasoning to the whole thing would have been -Sylvanas burned the tree because she's a spiteful cow. Elune didn't intervene because she likes mortals to fend for themselves and afterall, there should be consequences to actions.

  13. #573
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    They've occasionally written good zone-wide faction conflict. They've yet to write a big bad villain who didn't act like an amateur lobotomy victim.

    Plus, I prefer bitching about Anduin to writing about Shadowlands. Now that he's a pod person controlled by a cosmic bore all other characters who exist to rotate in his orbit lose direction and so does the plot. So we're left discussing whether the sunflower lady is a moron or not based on spacial dynamics that are simultaneously obscure and stupid.
    I though Azshara was written fairly well. Her story was let down ironically because of N'zoth being written as pretty dumb the patch right after, but I digress.

    Before that you have bit villains that work quite well. The Thunder King came across like sufficiently threatening. He suffered a tad simply because of the short time spent on buildup, but I was willing to believe he was both a global threat that conquered Pandaria and almost the world, and also how we defeated him in his stronghold.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Smallfruitbat View Post
    Blizzards writing is at its best when they are not trying to do all this 5D chess and intrigue. Unfortunately, here we are.

    A far better reasoning to the whole thing would have been -Sylvanas burned the tree because she's a spiteful cow. Elune didn't intervene because she likes mortals to fend for themselves and afterall, there should be consequences to actions.
    A tiny rewrite that might have worked is the Elune couldn't stop Sylvanas, but she did empower Tyrande with the intention of having her find the Winter Queen to in some way help defeat the Jailer.

    Just say that Elune couldn't intervene against Sylvanas because the Jailers plans would have gone through regardless, except Tyrande wouldn't go into the Shadowlands, much less as Elunes avatar, therefore not being able to contact the Winter Queen.

    It would have been a mostly needlessly complex ploy, but it would have gotten across the mysterious ways and grand design angle much better.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  14. #574
    So after a while of thinking about it and also taking into consideration what the writers were thinking this is my conclusion:

    First, I think sending spirits to the covenants who then use some of their Anima to sustain the place is not evil in-universe.
    Second, even if you have been sent to the wrong covenant you can later go to one of the others we have seen that already.

    So let's start with Elune sending the Night Elf souls to Ardenweald.
    It's kind of bad on the first impression also on the second and third... but I think it's not really evil, assuming Ardenweald just would have needed some Anima to get fixed. Spirits could have been free to leave for other covenants to leave later (or maybe could get reborn/rezzed as thanks from the Winter queen (since she would know that Elune would send them for help), this is speculative and depends on what they will actually do with the souls)

    I think that's what they were going for... but failed miserably to deliver it properly.

    The burning of Teldrassil
    This is a cop-out by the writers, they don't explain if Tyrande could have prevented the burning altogether.
    Elune only reacts to the tree already burned and now she got all these souls. At the same time, she hears her sister who is in need of anima otherwise the entire life-death connection breaks.

    Non of the eternal ones knew at this point whats up, except for Denathrius, he knew that the souls were sent to the Maw (Also Bwon knew since I guess since his master worked with Zovaal). So if even the death entities did not know about that, how would a life entity like Elune know? The only blame there is that she did not investigate into this after she sends the souls over and nothing changed.

    Choice between renewal & revenge
    This seems really nothing more than a convenience to end the revenge plot without actually delivering on it. I don't have to say much about this.
    Personally, I always felt like the focus is here too much on Sylvanas and not the Horde. So far it seems like Nelfs will be hostile to the Horde in the future as it is evidence in the new Kalimdor book but we will see.


    So in conclusion (to me) ... it was a pretty bad reveal for a mystery that was there since WC3 but it is not that destructive as some think. For me the main point is really that Night Elfs don't get justice nor revenge. The best they could do is just rezz up all that died and undo as much as possible from the things that happened with BfA.

  15. #575
    Quote Originally Posted by runepower View Post
    LISTEN to the characters before you cry about something.
    i think you expect too much... some people here are not able to comprehend the story unles they are LITERALY told point (and shown on picture), subtlety means nothing (but a rogue spec) to them...
    this is how it looks like when people dont read anything after age of 10

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    This seems really nothing more than a convenience to end the revenge plot without actually delivering on it.
    how is it ending revenge plot when Tyrande cant kill Sylva with ELUNES POWER? she could literaly at the end of video walk away and go kill Sylvanas, just not with elunes power up...
    its not like Sylva cant be harmed with exception of Elunes power, sure would help as she is (was) powered by jailer, but thats it...

  16. #576
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    how is it ending revenge plot when Tyrande cant kill Sylva with ELUNES POWER? she could literaly at the end of video walk away and go kill Sylvanas, just not with elunes power up...
    its not like Sylva cant be harmed with exception of Elunes power, sure would help as she is (was) powered by jailer, but thats it...
    But it could, Elune depower Tyrande because she wants to talk with her sister, can't do that if your avatar is dead.
    And now Tyrande was given the choice between revenge & renewal.

    Sylvanas even said it herself.

  17. #577
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    So we're left discussing whether the sunflower lady is a moron or not based on spacial dynamics that are simultaneously obscure and stupid.
    I think it's actually fascinating that they managed to construct a story that seems to be entirely reliant on coincidence and every major character being the most stupid version of themselves (which in some cases is the only version there is). Every single character that isn't a major villain seems to be stumbling into the major narrative beats because this team's writing requires them to be kept in the dark (just like the players) about all the actually relevant information.

    There's really nothing to discuss except the content of the next mystery box.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  18. #578
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I though Azshara was written fairly well. Her story was let down ironically because of N'zoth being written as pretty dumb the patch right after, but I digress.

    Before that you have bit villains that work quite well. The Thunder King came across like sufficiently threatening. He suffered a tad simply because of the short time spent on buildup, but I was willing to believe he was both a global threat that conquered Pandaria and almost the world, and also how we defeated him in his stronghold.
    Yeah, point. I'm more referring to the biggest ones, your Deathwings, Illidans, LKs and Jailers. I really enjoyed Azshara, still really enjoy Denathrius and the Thunder King and Gul'dan are both top tier. Whenever it comes to the actual final antagonist though, with the possible exception of Garrosh since he didn't start out that way, they just shit the bed and we're left with a load of nothing. Even if the villain has good build-up like I'd argue N'zoth did they end up getting a shit ending.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    I think it's actually fascinating that they managed to construct a story that seems to be entirely reliant on coincidence and every major character being the most stupid version of themselves (which in some cases is the only version there is). Every single character that isn't a major villain seems to be stumbling into the major narrative beats because this team's writing requires them to be kept in the dark (just like the players) about all the actually relevant information.

    There's really nothing to discuss except the content of the next mystery box.
    What I find most impressive is how it's at once needlessly convoluted and also very simple. Consider the entire Elune malarky and how you have to have a Phd. from the University of Smartass and also keep track of all the quest text in order to parse why the souls went to turbo hell anyway and what information any given character had at the time to make the decisions they did. If you do bother to go through this effort though you'll realize this entire tangled bullshit exists entirely to turn Tyrande into a peacenik and hand the Winter Queen one of four interchangable plot coupons.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  19. #579
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Their own fault. They created a setup in which we have a war neither side can win OR lose, because they need both to be equal to uphold the game's balance (ostensibly, anyway). That only goes so far, and so it's no surprise that every time they even hint at some sort of faction conflict it VERY quickly turns into "okay, but let's put this on hold to combat this REAL evil together". That's a pretty shitty constraint to write for.
    That's the main problem with faction war right there, the only thing worse than that is the annoying regularity with which they keep coming back to it, it's a storyline that can never be resolved and thus will always be unsatisfying, but the "WAR in WARcraft! herp derp!"-routine always seems to come through in the end...

    They even spent most of MoP telling us how bad faction war is, but nope, the Jailer's 6D chess game requires a war, so off we go again!

  20. #580
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    What I find most impressive is how it's at once needlessly convoluted and also very simple. Consider the entire Elune malarky and how you have to have a Phd. from the University of Smartass and also keep track of all the quest text in order to parse why the souls went to turbo hell anyway and what information any given character had at the time to make the decisions they did. If you do bother to go through this effort though you'll realize this entire tangled bullshit exists entirely to turn Tyrande into a peacenik and hand the Winter Queen one of four interchangable plot coupons.
    It seems that they spend all their time and effort on writing convoluted justifications for their story to make it "bulletproof" instead of, you know, actually telling a worthwhile story. Their storytelling gives answers to all the wrong questions while letting the big, important ones go unanswered. It's like they hired a team of reddit theorycrafters to write their lore.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

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