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  1. #581
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    What I find most impressive is how it's at once needlessly convoluted and also very simple. Consider the entire Elune malarky and how you have to have a Phd. from the University of Smartass and also keep track of all the quest text in order to parse why the souls went to turbo hell anyway and what information any given character had at the time to make the decisions they did. If you do bother to go through this effort though you'll realize this entire tangled bullshit exists entirely to turn Tyrande into a peacenik and hand the Winter Queen one of four interchangable plot coupons.
    It seems that they spend all their time and effort on writing convoluted justifications for their story to make it "bulletproof" instead of, you know, actually telling a worthwhile story. Their storytelling gives answers to all the wrong questions while letting the big, important ones go unanswered. It's like they hired a team of reddit theorycrafters to write their lore.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  2. #582
    Quote Originally Posted by 8bithamster View Post
    jesus.. are people still saying Elune killed them? She states "AFTER THE TRAGEDY" as in post burning, post world tree bbq..
    They didnt wanna know that, bacause they wanna whine.

  3. #583
    Quote Originally Posted by Loreth88 View Post
    They didnt wanna know that, bacause they wanna whine.
    seems so. Like the trolls they are, facts are scary for them

  4. #584
    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    Elune, from her pov, was merely guiding them safely to the next page. Thats not so bad, is it?
    Because of how Elune says it is something bad.
    Because Elune says she condemned them, not that it was the Blue Smurf's fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    But what really baffles me is that the Elves seem to be FINE with it. Literally 5 minutes later Tyrande is happily evoking Elune's name again. The goddess who literally threw them to the fire for her aloof reasons after millenia of worship by the Nightelves. Elune has her divine view point, but the Elves do not have that luxury. For them this all appears as nothing less then a betrayal by the one they trusted in most.
    Sure, maybe they could understand Elune's reasons, but not that fast and Tyrande isn't the most reasonable person at the best of times...
    Exactly this had to be the beginning of the Expansion. Elune just did the same thing the enemy is doing only a little "cuter". The expansion (the Zone) should be to show us the difference between what Elune did and what The Blue Smurf does.
    And leaving us with the Blue Smurf he does it by proxy. Elune did it because she had no other choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Literally lobotomized into being a peacenik.
    I feel the same. Now I wonder. Did Elune also send her to kill the Wardens in W3?

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Blizz is utterly horrible at writing the faction war or just basic faction conflict for that matter, this outcome might be for the best, considering the alternatives.
    Let's face it, they have hundreds of more satisfactory solutions if they used a minimum of logic.
    For example, the Horde simply signing a treaty that makes payment to the Kaldorei.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    ...
    But your logic is missing a detail. What is it that Elune Condemn them.
    That gives us two options
    1 could save the tree
    2 the Kaldorei don't normally go to SL.

    Thinking of the 2.
    So Tyrande has to put his Justice aside to save someone he doesn't know or care about. Bone Ardenweald is not something the Kaldorei should care about. They are once again Sacrificing themselves to save someone else who may not return the favor.

  5. #585
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post

    But your logic is missing a detail. What is it that Elune Condemn them.
    That gives us two options
    1 could save the tree
    2 the Kaldorei don't normally go to SL.

    Thinking of the 2.
    So Tyrande has to put his Justice aside to save someone he doesn't know or care about. Bone Ardenweald is not something the Kaldorei should care about. They are once again Sacrificing themselves to save someone else who may not return the favor.
    She condemned them because they went to the Maw instead of Ardenweald. She says that as a reaction to the WQ telling her that they went into the Maw.

  6. #586
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    She condemned them because they went to the Maw instead of Ardenweald. She says that as a reaction to the WQ telling her that they went into the Maw.
    But if they normally go to SL. That would not be her fault. Because she shouldn't have interfered with the Flow of Souls in a Normal way.

    So they normally don't go to SL (or worse she let the tree burn)

  7. #587
    People who keep insisting "Elune should have saved them / stopped the tree burning etc" I think make a terrible argument.

    Its like how people say to Christians, "Why does God let suffering and pain exist in the world?". Like - Why didnt God stop 911 to prevent thousands of innocent people dying a horrible death? And their answer would include that its not Gods intent or purpose to micromanage the world - end all suffering/pain/death etc - and save people from themselves.

    Elune never had to save them. Thats not her role. Her role, from the scraps we're starting to get.. is probably a leader in the Pantheon of Life, who nurtures mortal souls then guides them to the Shadowlands/Realms of Death once its their time. Sylvanas (in a horrible, genocidal act) chose the time a fuck ton of Night Elf souls were going to die. Its NOT Elunes role to ''be judge and jury" as to whether that time is appropriate. If Sylvanas comes in and committs genocide - Elune does NOT have to be the God (with a capital G) who starts controlling the fate of everyone in the universe and saying 'no'.

    This is probably why Elune has been so elusive/apprehensive about interfering in general, for like 20 years now. Only stuff like the Ysera intervention. Theres probably a good reason she didnt just intervene willy-nilly whenever she wanted.
    Last edited by TyrianFC; 2021-07-29 at 01:11 PM.

  8. #588
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    But if they normally go to SL. That would not be her fault. Because she shouldn't have interfered with the Flow of Souls in a Normal way.

    So they normally don't go to SL (or worse she let the tree burn)
    We can only assume that Elune turns them into wisps or maybe she has her own realm where she takes them. From what we saw in BfA not all of the Night Elfs turn into wisps. We need more information on this to know what usually happens.

  9. #589
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    We can only assume that Elune turns them into wisps or maybe she has her own realm where she takes them. From what we saw in BfA not all of the Night Elfs turn into wisps. We need more information on this to know what usually happens.
    Elune turning Elves into wisps is probably one of the reasons the Shadowlands (brokers) dislike her and find her untrustworthy. Elune is likely contravening (or bending the rules of) The Great Cycle - by not allowing the wisps to pass into the shadowlands, by keeping them in reality (aka realms of life) in what the brokers/shadowlands would see as a 'disgusting/unnatural' act.

  10. #590
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    We can only assume that Elune turns them into wisps or maybe she has her own realm where she takes them. From what we saw in BfA not all of the Night Elfs turn into wisps. We need more information on this to know what usually happens.
    So we are left with:
    A She kill them like Wisp
    B are in a sky that is not theirs

    The A is cruel. The B implies that Elune is forcing Tyrande to stop fighting for his people to fight this war that his people want. This whole Ardenweald thing is really "horrible."

    Elune didn't let them finish healing his wounds. Even his lives are in danger and she's already getting them into another war. It even seems that she forces them to not be able to continue their struggles.


    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    People who keep insisting "Elune should have saved them / stopped the tree burning etc" I think make a terrible argument.
    Unfortunately Elune is among those people.
    Last edited by geco; 2021-07-29 at 01:45 PM.

  11. #591
    Quote Originally Posted by Fewane View Post
    I feel the same. Whether it was Elune sacrificing the Night Elves into the cycle or just not keeping them as wisps and letting them go to her sister, this makes Elune feel much more god-like. Though I don't think of it as being less loyal: Elune is more like a farmer that decides to sacrifice her cattle to feed a starving relative. It doesn't mean she doesn't care for her cattle, just that the needs of the "gods" outweight the needs of the cattle/worshippers.
    True, either way I think it's an interesting and surprisingly clever twist. It also paints some questions over whether Elune knew Teldrassil would burn, or even if she played some part in making it happen.

    Regardless, I hope they really keep this thread going. No doubt, Night Elves are going to be FURIOUS if they discover Elune willingly sacrificed them, and it might cause an interesting rift in their society. And I'll admit, it also has me trying to remember whether or not Elune has any connection to the Emerald Dream or not, whether this revelation would affect Druids in their culture or not?

    Like I said, I hope Tyrande finds out and is understandably pissed about the situation. Given how cool she was as "Night Warrior", I'd almost hope she could serve as the basis for a third, new Demon Hunter spec (maybe something forcibly channeling Elune's wrath into ranged dot's, etc), but that's getting ahead of myself!

  12. #592
    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    Elune turning Elves into wisps is probably one of the reasons the Shadowlands (brokers) dislike her and find her untrustworthy. Elune is likely contravening (or bending the rules of) The Great Cycle - by not allowing the wisps to pass into the shadowlands, by keeping them in reality (aka realms of life) in what the brokers/shadowlands would see as a 'disgusting/unnatural' act.
    I don't think so, otherwise, all other death entities should hate her too. Also, they don't hate her... but her don't trust her KIND.
    The Brokers literally don't care. Fewer souls also mean more profit margin for them... selling souls.

    If some creatures don't die it does not really matter to the Shadowlands as long as most die. Keeping Night Elfs from the Shadowlands is just makes no real difference in cosmic scale.

    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    So we are left with:
    A I kill them like Wisp
    B are in a sky that is not theirs

    The A is cruel. The B implies that Elune is forcing Tyrande to stop fighting for his people to fight this war that his people want. This whole Ardenweald thing is really "horrible."

    Elune didn't let them finish healing his wounds. Even his lives are in danger and she's already getting them into another war. It even seems that she forces them to not be able to continue their struggles.

    Unfortunately Elune is among those people.
    I have a hard time understanding your post.
    What are we left with?
    Who is the "he" you are talking about?

  13. #593
    How do people not understand this?

    She's didn't kill the Night Elves she just let thier souls pass into the Shadowlands....

    Not sure why people think Elune is omnipotent, omnipresent or omniscient....

    Apperetnly he can't instantly know what's happening in the Shadowlands.

  14. #594
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    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    People who keep insisting "Elune should have saved them / stopped the tree burning etc" I think make a terrible argument.
    It's actually a decent argument -and what the elves expected. What is the point of worshipping a deity if you can't call in the odd favour when you're in a scrape.

    Personally, I wish they hadn't introduced Elune, I would have preferred she remain mysterious. This very much feels like the Wizard of Oz, pull back the screen and suddenly the Great Goddess disappears leaving behind a fuddled, clueless entity with little actual power. Look what Tyrande accomplished with the power of the Goddess... She killed Nathanos, OK she went toe to toe with Sylvie but at the crucial moment Elune "pulled the plug" or maybe she ran out of steam -we don't know.

    I think the story would have been stronger if there was a single line, Elune saying she regretted the deaths but CHOOSES not to interfere in the affairs of mortals. That doesn't neuter Elune, we think she had the power to intervene in someway but she's playing hard to get.

    The other thing that misses the mark is how the Goddess responded to the dying elves, her chosen people. If your only source for lore is the game, you don't know that she allowed the last few of them to fall asleep peacefully.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    How do people not understand this?

    She's didn't kill the Night Elves she just let thier souls pass into the Shadowlands....

    Not sure why people think Elune is omnipotent, omnipresent or omniscient....

    Apperetnly he can't instantly know what's happening in the Shadowlands.
    Because, throughout the lore, Elune has been portrayed as a powerful deity who defends her people.

  15. #595
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    .....
    Yes, sorry, English is not my language.

    What I'm going to. For me there are two options:
    1 Or Elune killed them as Wisp.
    2 O Elune didn't let life go beyond where they had to go and instead sent them to SL.

    If it becomes the second. So the Kaldorei don't really care about Ardenweald. They would be fighting again for a cause that is not theirs and when they needed help they were left alone.
    (I mean it would be like a second Suramar)

    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    She's didn't kill the Night Elves she just let thier souls pass into the Shadowlands....
    The point is that they are "functionally" the same. Since she tells you that she "condemns" them.
    I mean she did something she didn't have to do and this happened.

  16. #596
    Quote Originally Posted by Smallfruitbat View Post
    It's actually a decent argument -and what the elves expected. What is the point of worshipping a deity if you can't call in the odd favour when you're in a scrape..
    Idk ask every religious person on Earth?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Smallfruitbat View Post
    It's actually a decent argument -and what the elves expected. What is the point of worshipping a deity if you can't call in the odd favour when you're in a scrape.

    Personally, I wish they hadn't introduced Elune, I would have preferred she remain mysterious. This very much feels like the Wizard of Oz, pull back the screen and suddenly the Great Goddess disappears leaving behind a fuddled, clueless entity with little actual power. Look what Tyrande accomplished with the power of the Goddess... She killed Nathanos, OK she went toe to toe with Sylvie but at the crucial moment Elune "pulled the plug" or maybe she ran out of steam -we don't know.

    I think the story would have been stronger if there was a single line, Elune saying she regretted the deaths but CHOOSES not to interfere in the affairs of mortals. That doesn't neuter Elune, we think she had the power to intervene in someway but she's playing hard to get.

    The other thing that misses the mark is how the Goddess responded to the dying elves, her chosen people. If your only source for lore is the game, you don't know that she allowed the last few of them to fall asleep peacefully.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Because, throughout the lore, Elune has been portrayed as a powerful deity who defends her people.
    Powerful isn't Omni-everything....

    We know now a limit her, she can't easily peer into the Shadowlands

  17. #597
    Quote Originally Posted by Smallfruitbat View Post
    It's actually a decent argument -and what the elves expected. What is the point of worshipping a deity if you can't call in the odd favour when you're in a scrape.
    Why dont you ask to every freaking christian, muslim etc on the planet? Theres only.... billions of them. If there is a god, he doesnt give them 'odd favours' no matter how much they worship him.

    Why exactly is Elune required to be anything different to the real life religion situation that literally affects most people on the planet?

  18. #598
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    Quote Originally Posted by aceperson View Post
    without checking up on what was causing the drought, mind you. she let her "favorite children" burn to death because she was too lazy to make an interdimensional phone call with her absurd powers...
    This, all this. I find it difficult to believe that, if Elune was able to check in on the Shadowlands enough to figure out there was a drought going on, that she couldn't also peek at Oribos and see every single soul from the entire multiverse being funneled down directly to the Maw before enacting her amazing plan of "let the majority of my followers be incinerated in a war crime perpetrated by an agent of the person directly benefitting from the problems going on in the Shadowlands."

    Once again, someone we're repeatedly told is smart and unknowably wise turns into the village idiot in a cinematic for the purposes of moving the storyline forward, and existing characters/concepts are run through the mud in a desperate attempt to legitimize the Janitor as the new Lich King-tier face-of-the-franchise baddie.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  19. #599
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    Yes, sorry, English is not my language.

    What I'm going to. For me there are two options:
    1 Or Elune killed them as Wisp.
    2 O Elune didn't let life go beyond where they had to go and instead sent them to SL.

    If it becomes the second. So the Kaldorei don't really care about Ardenweald. They would be fighting again for a cause that is not theirs and when they needed help they were left alone.
    (I mean it would be like a second Suramar)


    The point is that they are "functionally" the same. Since she tells you that she "condemns" them.
    I mean she did something she didn't have to do and this happened.
    No it's not? She didn't make Slyvanas do anything. She stopped them becoming wisps.

    Those are massively different.

    The difference between a doctor failing to save a person whose been stabbed and stabbing them.

  20. #600
    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    No it's not? She didn't make Slyvanas do anything. She stopped them becoming wisps.
    If Elune didn't let them become Wisp. It is like Elune did not leave to be born and killed them directly. I mean Elune denied them his second life as Wisp.

    It is still something very serious.

    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    Why exactly is Elune required to be anything different to the real life religion situation that literally affects most people on the planet?
    Are you seriously asking?
    You are also going to ask why priests have power in WoW if not in real life?
    Last edited by geco; 2021-07-29 at 02:01 PM.

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