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  1. #601
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    If he didn't let them become Wisp. It's like not letting you be born and I would kill them directly. I mean I denied them their second life as Wisp

    It is still something very serious.
    Yes, I'm not saying it's not serious. I'm saying it's not burning them/murder...

    Her motives are sound. She allowed her chosen people to die (over becoming wisps) to continue the Forces of Life rebirth in death.

    The only bit that's questionable is Elune not knowing about the maw situation. Which isn't an established power or anything.
    Last edited by Newname1234567890; 2021-07-29 at 02:03 PM.

  2. #602
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    The point is that they are "functionally" the same. Since she tells you that she "condemns" them.
    I mean she did something she didn't have to do and this happened.
    How is it the same thing? If they would have been sent to Ardenweald how she intended they don't destroy mortal souls in Ardenweald.

  3. #603
    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    How do people not understand this?

    She's didn't kill the Night Elves she just let thier souls pass into the Shadowlands....
    She didn't kill them, but she effectively 'unchose' them. She effectively sacrificed their afterlife to give her sister some juice.

    Since she accidentally sent their eternal souls to be destroyed or converted by Zovaal, she effectively 'super killed' them or sent them into eternal slavery.

    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    Not sure why people think Elune is omnipotent, omnipresent or omniscient....

    Apperetnly he can't instantly know what's happening in the Shadowlands.
    Her sister said she was low on juice, in a universe where billions of souls are being funneled into the SL daily. She doesn't even reply to her sister, or inquire why something that's worked fine for eons is suddenly an issue. She just decides to send off thousands of her 'chosen people' as some energy and consider the matter solved.

  4. #604
    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    Yes, I'm not saying it's not serious. I'm saying it's not burning them...

    Her motives are sound. She allowed her chosen people to die to continue the Forces of Life to continue to be reborn in depth.
    I understand.
    It's not really clear what Elune did.
    There are many hints that Elune could have saved them. Even Sylvanas says it at BFA.

    But really the two (three) options in my case generate the same reaction.

    I mean I should say that Elune sacrificed the Kaldorei. As she did it, it does not matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    How is it the same thing? If they would have been sent to Ardenweald how she intended they don't destroy mortal souls in Ardenweald.
    My point is. Where would they normally go?
    They are going to be drums to Ardenweald instead of going to the afterlife where they should have gone.
    And he even forces Tyrande to put aside Justice's quest to save Ardenweald.

    In other words, the Kaldorei do not earn anything, they are still on the verge of a collapse and even so they are forced to go to save other people. And he is already obliged.
    Last edited by geco; 2021-07-29 at 02:10 PM.

  5. #605
    Dreadlord Smallfruitbat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    Why dont you ask to every freaking christian, muslim etc on the planet? Theres only.... billions of them. If there is a god, he doesnt give them 'odd favours' no matter how much they worship him.

    Why exactly is Elune required to be anything different to the real life religion situation that literally affects most people on the planet?
    First up, this is a fantasy setting, lets not have a poke at those who believe in a god. I'm pretty sure some them will come back with instances they believe God has aided them but that's another kettle of fish.

    Historically, Elune has intervened on behalf of Tyrande I think someone listed a few pages back things she's done. There were comments from NPCs that 'Elune had abandoned them'. Clearly, the Night Elves expected some sort of protection from their Goddess. Whether or not she should have intervened is more or less a moot point. I'm arguing that they expected her to intervene

  6. #606
    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    She didn't kill them, but she effectively 'unchose' them. She effectively sacrificed their afterlife to give her sister some juice.

    Since she accidentally sent their eternal souls to be destroyed or converted by Zovaal, she effectively 'super killed' them or sent them into eternal slavery.



    Her sister said she was low on juice, in a universe where billions of souls are being funneled into the SL daily. She doesn't even reply to her sister, or inquire why something that's worked fine for eons is suddenly an issue. She just decides to send off thousands of her 'chosen people' as some energy and consider the matter solved.
    Right. So the issue is where Elunes powers start and end. She can "hear" the Shadowlands but can't seem to fully comprehend or see them, atleast if she doesn't have a vessel present.

    Which as far as I'm concerned we've never had any reason to assume she can directly interfere with the Shadowlands.

    So Blizzard are establishing a boundary.

  7. #607
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    we havent seen many examples but id say shes been given a fair bit. for example. the blast she killed saurfang with. ppl said "they have never seen that kind of magic before". we just havent seen her use much of it, outside in cinematic or story form. However. In her fight she literally does tear shit apart. Id wager a guess that is not her banshee powers given thanks to frostmourne raising her, but the Jailer.

    - - - Updated - - -



    right? he saved his people!
    tazdingo!!!

  8. #608
    The Insane Arafal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    Why dont you ask to every freaking christian, muslim etc on the planet?
    you are comparing apples to oranges.
    Elune isn't an omnipotent god that created everything for whatever purpose they see fit.

    Elune is just one goddess out of many.

    What makes more sense is if she just isn't able to influence reality to such an extent as to save them.
    Which would go in line with how she has been portrayed till now.

    Except for taking in Ysera, we have never seen her take any direct action on her own, she was always invoked either through ritual or prayer.
    And even in Yseras case, that happened on Elunes own temple grounds with Ysera crying out to her at the end.

    Trans Rights are Human Rights // Elune Says Queer Rights!


  9. #609
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    I understand.
    It's not really clear what Elune did.
    There are many hints that Elune could have saved them. Even Sylvanas says it at BFA.

    But really the two (three) options in my case generate the same reaction.

    I mean I should say that Elune sacrificed the Kaldorei. As she did it, it does not matter.


    My point is. Where would they normally go?
    They are going to be drums to Ardenweald instead of going to the afterlife where they should have gone.
    And he even forces Tyrande to put aside Justice's quest to save Ardenweald.

    In other words, the Kaldorei do not earn anything, they are still on the verge of a collapse and even so they are forced to go to save other people. And he is already obliged.
    I mean it's pretty clear what she did. She allowed them to die in an attempt to continue the Forces of Life resurrection cycle. What she didn't do is tell Slyvanas to burn the tree. Which I can stress this enough is in no way the same as killing them.

    The issue with her plan was purely a lack on Intel on the happenings of the Shadowlands. Which we have no reason to assume she would know/be able to know. Beyond that she can "hear" them.

  10. #610
    Quote Originally Posted by Smallfruitbat View Post
    Because, throughout the lore, Elune has been portrayed as a powerful deity who defends her people.
    ... no she wasnt, she literaly never helped them in any war, she helped few individuals - like she saved Tyrande in war of ancients, and didnt help AT ALL to thousands of nelfs being slaughtered...

  11. #611
    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    Right. So the issue is where Elunes powers start and end. She can "hear" the Shadowlands but can't seem to fully comprehend or see them, atleast if she doesn't have a vessel present.

    Which as far as I'm concerned we've never had any reason to assume she can directly interfere with the Shadowlands.

    So Blizzard are establishing a boundary.
    I'm fine with her having no ability to directly influence the shadowlands. Though in a way she does actually have interference powers since she can apparenty make souls into wisps or into another afterlife normally. If 'sending them to the shadowlands' does not mean she killed them directly, it means that after they died she diverted them there from wherever they normally go.

    Even if she can't properly see the shadowlands, it seems odd that the reply to a call for help is not to answer the call, but just throw them some more meat. Like what, did she assume that ardenweald just wasn't getting enough juice because not enough animals and druids were dieing across the entire multiverse? Is this a normal thing for elune to do?

    It just seems odd that her solution to a shipping issue is to apparently just ship more things.

  12. #612
    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    I mean it's pretty clear what she did. She allowed them to die in an attempt to continue the Forces of Life resurrection cycle. What she didn't do is tell Slyvanas to burn the tree. Which I can stress this enough is in no way the same as killing them.

    The issue with her plan was purely a lack on Intel on the happenings of the Shadowlands. Which we have no reason to assume she would know/be able to know. Beyond that she can "hear" them.
    That would be what there are doubts. It's how Elune "did that".
    Personally, I believe that Elune could have prevented or delayed the burning and did not.

    But I don't think anyone believes that Elune controlled Sylvanas and made her burn the tree or similar.

  13. #613
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Let's avoid discussing real-world religions and religious practices and focus on Elune and the fictional institutions of Warcraft.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  14. #614
    Seeing the replies in this thread, shows the big issue with WoW. Blizzard is writing a story for people who dont or refuse to understand the story. First of all, Elune is not omnipotent. She doesnt know everything. Her and the Winter Queen are 2 sides of a coin, does the Winter Queen know everything? No. Also, Elune, like a lot of god-like beings, doesnt directly interfere with the actions of mortals.

    She is bound to the cycle of life and death like every other being in existence. To prevent the death of the Night Elves would be a violation of nature itself. She took the opportunity of all those Night Elves dying to send them right to Ardenweald so they could be at peace and fuel the place with anima. She did not know that the Maw was consuming everything. Not even the denizens of the Shadowlands knew that. When the Eternal ones meet at the start of the expansion, Kyrestia asked how the Maw suddenly grew in power. These are powerful immortal beings, not omniscient gods.

    Elune knew there was an anima drought in Ardenweald because of the cries for aid she got, but that doesnt mean "zomg everythings going to the Maw". There could be a drought for hundreds of reasons. If the Arbitor doesnt send enough souls there because not enough nature bound beings die, then there would be a drought. If too many Devourers show up and dont get contained, there's going to be a drought.

    The drought did not happen because all souls are going to the Maw, it happened because Denathrius stole all the anima that was available to send it to the Maw. Without that, the realms would have had a lot of anima for a decent amount of time.

    Wow's writing is not much different than any other fantasy story. Everything in the game makes sense if you take more than a second to understand it, rather than bitch about it.
    If what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Then I should be a god by now.

  15. #615
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    I understand.
    It's not really clear what Elune did.
    There are many hints that Elune could have saved them. Even Sylvanas says it at BFA.
    She never says that, she only comments that Elune takes some action before she burned the Tree. (She saved Malfurion)

    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    I understand.
    It's not really clear what Elune did.
    There are many hints that Elune could have saved them. Even Sylvanas says it at BFA.

    But really the two (three) options in my case generate the same reaction.

    I mean I should say that Elune sacrificed the Kaldorei. As she did it, it does not matter.
    I can refer back to my long post here but in short: she did not sacrifice her people. Sending the souls directly to Ardenweald did not doom these souls at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    My point is. Where would they normally go?
    They are going to be drums to Ardenweald instead of going to the afterlife where they should have gone.
    And he even forces Tyrande to put aside Justice's quest to save Ardenweald.
    We don't know, maybe they usually go into Ardenweald or some of the other covenants when they don't turn into wisps.

    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    In other words, the Kaldorei do not earn anything, they are still on the verge of a collapse and even so they are forced to go to save other people. And he is already obliged.
    No, Tyrande is not forced she has the choice for either renewal & vengeance. The renewal is actually more about the Kaldorei which is pretty clear from late BfA conversations and ones you see after the cinematic. They even want to give the Night Elfs souls their new spring (which might be getting reborn or rezzed)


    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    I mean it's pretty clear what she did. She allowed them to die in an attempt to continue the Forces of Life resurrection cycle. What she didn't do is tell Slyvanas to burn the tree. Which I can stress this enough is in no way the same as killing them.

    The issue with her plan was purely a lack on Intel on the happenings of the Shadowlands. Which we have no reason to assume she would know/be able to know. Beyond that she can "hear" them.
    Even that is not true, she never said that she allowed them to die. Why or if Elune could have stopped the burning is unexplained.
    Last edited by Hellspawn; 2021-07-29 at 02:24 PM.

  16. #616
    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    I'm fine with her having no ability to directly influence the shadowlands. Though in a way she does actually have interference powers since she can apparenty make souls into wisps or into another afterlife normally. If 'sending them to the shadowlands' does not mean she killed them directly, it means that after they died she diverted them there from wherever they normally go.

    Even if she can't properly see the shadowlands, it seems odd that the reply to a call for help is not to answer the call, but just throw them some more meat. Like what, did she assume that ardenweald just wasn't getting enough juice because not enough animals and druids were dieing across the entire multiverse? Is this a normal thing for elune to do?

    It just seems odd that her solution to a shipping issue is to apparently just ship more things.
    Presumably she can prevent souls leaving the material plane. Which makes sense with the available information.

    Counter point. You're in a foreign country. You hear someone cry out, you don't know the language or where it's coming from. There's a huge gap between hearing and total comprehension of a situation.

    Your a god who's domain might stretch across a billion worlds. You know your sister is crying for help and you don't know why, plus it's beyond your ability to check (since you've never shown that ability). But you know that all things in the Shadowlands runs off mortal souls . You see a chance to try and potnenally save your sister, one of your people's are facing a crisis. You have limited power to directly interfere since after all the Night Elves have been beaten numerous times and you haven't swooped in to save them. Seeing the innvertable coming you monopolies the crisis and allow the souls you'd normally turn into wisps into the Shadowlands to try and help your sister.

    To me that make perfect sense

  17. #617
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post

    I can refer back to my long post here but in short: she did not sacrifice her people. Sending the souls directly to Ardenweald did not doom these souls at all.


    We don't know, maybe they usually go into Ardenweald or some of the other covenants when they don't turn into wisps.
    Under that Logic Elune did not condemn them.
    Besides all the Covenants were "corrupt". So if Elune made everyone go to Ardenweald. Elune would not have condemned them because the other pacts would be the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    No, Tyrande is not forced she has the choice for either renewal & vengeance. The renewal is actually more about the Kaldorei which is pretty clear from late BfA conversations and ones you see after the cinematic. They even want to give the Night Elfs souls their new spring (which might be getting reborn or rezzed)
    I do not think so. It is another "wait and see" from Blizzard that for now ends in nothing.
    But you're right that we haven't seen what it is yet. But they shouldn't have gone to Ardenweald. In truth "Renewal" is Tyrande correcting Elune's mistake.

    PD: But being that again they tell us "I'll tell you later" it sounds like "Let's have no idea"

  18. #618
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pandragon View Post
    Seeing the replies in this thread, shows the big issue with WoW. Blizzard is writing a story for people who dont or refuse to understand the story. First of all, Elune is not omnipotent. She doesnt know everything. Her and the Winter Queen are 2 sides of a coin, does the Winter Queen know everything? No. Also, Elune, like a lot of god-like beings, doesnt directly interfere with the actions of mortals.

    She is bound to the cycle of life and death like every other being in existence. To prevent the death of the Night Elves would be a violation of nature itself. She took the opportunity of all those Night Elves dying to send them right to Ardenweald so they could be at peace and fuel the place with anima. She did not know that the Maw was consuming everything. Not even the denizens of the Shadowlands knew that. When the Eternal ones meet at the start of the expansion, Kyrestia asked how the Maw suddenly grew in power. These are powerful immortal beings, not omniscient gods.
    To be fair, we've only recently learned more of Elune's nature i.e. the Winter Queen and her place within the essential dynamo of WoW's metacosm, so to speak. For a long time, Elune was more mysterious and had a cachet of prestige few other powers in WoW had (e.g. being accorded as the sole true deity-level power of the mythology). Now we know Elune's relative place in the broader pantheon of higher powers, that she is kin to the Eternal Ones who, while powerful, are definitely limited in their scope and not beyond mortal interference (such as our having dealt with the corrupt Sire Denathrius). While I agree about non-interference and her being bound to unknowable rules as befits her place in the cosmic cycle, I can understand that some people might be disheartened to learn she isn't essentially more than she's been shown to be, that her power and scope are necessarily limited, and she isn't quite the divine authority that some people might've thought.

    I don't blame Elune for what happened in Teldrassil, and knowing what we know now I think she tried to make the best out of a horrid situation and failed due to complexities she couldn't be aware of (aka Zovaal's machinations). But I can see how that would be a let-down to people who had put their hopes in her, both in-universe and as a character in the story being told. People expected a lot from Elune as a character, and I suppose the reveal has shown that Elune isn't quite the authority or the power that people had built her up to be.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  19. #619
    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    Presumably she can prevent souls leaving the material plane. Which makes sense with the available information.

    Counter point. You're in a foreign country. You hear someone cry out, you don't know the language or where it's coming from. There's a huge gap between hearing and total comprehension of a situation.

    Your a god who's domain might stretch across a billion worlds. You know your sister is crying for help and you don't know why, plus it's beyond your ability to check (since you've never shown that ability). But you know that all things in the Shadowlands runs off mortal souls . You see a chance to try and potnenally save your sister, one of your people's are facing a crisis. You have limited power to directly interfere since after all the Night Elves have been beaten numerous times and you haven't swooped in to save them. Seeing the innvertable coming you monopolies the crisis and allow the souls you'd normally turn into wisps into the Shadowlands to try and help your sister.

    To me that make perfect sense
    Why do the Winter Queen and Elune, sisters, not share a language? Can she not hear there's a problem with shipping?

    Why does Elune have no knowledge on how the shadowlands works, when she's now been described as being tied into the cycle of life and death. Its not complicated. Souls go in, they go places. But apparently souls aren't going places, cause her sister is crying out. Let's send more souls in.

    She's still effectively treating her 'chosen people' like batteries. Even if they did go to the right place.
    Last edited by Myradin; 2021-07-29 at 02:35 PM.

  20. #620
    Dreadlord Smallfruitbat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    ... no she wasnt, she literaly never helped them in any war, she helped few individuals - like she saved Tyrande in war of ancients, and didnt help AT ALL to thousands of nelfs being slaughtered...
    Bad phrasing on my part. Elune allowed her power to be used to save her people in the past. I realise that she didn't step in during the wars etc.

    As I previously said, I actually prefer the idea that she chooses not to dabble in the affairs of mortals. In my opinion, by revealing more about Elune and limits to her powers (whether real or inferred) they have spoiled most compelling part about Elune and that was the mystery.

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