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  1. #641
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Literally lobotomized into being a peacenik.
    That's a really poor take on it. She said she was as much a witness as Shandris, and Shandris was right there. It means Tyrande felt separate to her physical body that was having the conversation.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    We can only assume that Elune turns them into wisps or maybe she has her own realm where she takes them. From what we saw in BfA not all of the Night Elfs turn into wisps. We need more information on this to know what usually happens.
    Some could become wisps and I'd say the evidence seen right across Azeroth implies a lot would stick around to be vengeful or at least disgruntled spirits.

    A lot would probably have been cast off to other afterlives. While all NElves have some sort of connection to nature they aren't all dedicated wood-warriors full time. Many probably go to whatever plane of existence best suits them.

  2. #642
    Btw, Tyrande in the new quest just confirmed that she picked renewal over retribution :
    "I see now that while many of our people desire retribution, what we need most is renewal".


    This is for people who still defend this writing and used tons of mental gymnastic and hypocrisy to make it sounds like that Tyrande could have still both renewal and justice.

  3. #643
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    That's a really poor take on it. She said she was as much a witness as Shandris, and Shandris was right there. It means Tyrande felt separate to her physical body that was having the conversation.
    Tyrande's decision is a farce. She chose constantly to pursue her completely rational and justifiable grievances against Sylvanas. She speaks it out loud in the fight cinematic, accepting that she might lose her life but she'll bring Sylvanas down with her. At that point Elune pulls out the power cord and she loses. After that point Sylvanas is out of reach and she's on the verge of exploding. It's only at this point and with Tyrande having an out of body experience and verging death that she presents her with either choosing renewal, i.e a realm that's basically fine already, or 'vengeance', i.e the defeat of someone who nearly eliminated her race to feed Satan. Tyrande later speaks of all of it as an out of body experience that she doesn't remember Elune's plan for despite Elune saying there was no plan and she just fucked up the delivery.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  4. #644
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Tyrande's decision is a farce. She chose constantly to pursue her completely rational and justifiable grievances against Sylvanas. She speaks it out loud in the fight cinematic, accepting that she might lose her life but she'll bring Sylvanas down with her. At that point Elune pulls out the power cord and she loses. After that point Sylvanas is out of reach and she's on the verge of exploding. It's only at this point and with Tyrande having an out of body experience and verging death that she presents her with either choosing renewal, i.e a realm that's basically fine already, or 'vengeance', i.e the defeat of someone who nearly eliminated her race to feed Satan. Tyrande later speaks of all of it as an out of body experience that she doesn't remember Elune's plan for despite Elune saying there was no plan and she just fucked up the delivery.
    I say this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Part of Elune's normal portfolio of attributes is serenity, contemplation, peace, and harmony - it's quite likely that Tyrande touched this aspect of Elune during their communion in Ardenweald and it helped to smooth away some of anger and rage. Whether you call that "mind control" is a bit subjective, but I would definitely say that the presence of Elune had a profound effect on her (as well as the notion that there was some recourse for the kaldorei in light of what happened at Teldrassil).

  5. #645
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Tyrande's decision is a farce. She chose constantly to pursue her completely rational and justifiable grievances against Sylvanas. She speaks it out loud in the fight cinematic, accepting that she might lose her life but she'll bring Sylvanas down with her. At that point Elune pulls out the power cord and she loses. After that point Sylvanas is out of reach and she's on the verge of exploding. It's only at this point and with Tyrande having an out of body experience and verging death that she presents her with either choosing renewal, i.e a realm that's basically fine already, or 'vengeance', i.e the defeat of someone who nearly eliminated her race to feed Satan. Tyrande later speaks of all of it as an out of body experience that she doesn't remember Elune's plan for despite Elune saying there was no plan and she just fucked up the delivery.
    The Renewal thing, in context of the cinematic was a hopeful note that together they can yet save the lost Kaldorei souls starting with Tyrande herself.

  6. #646
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Tyrande's decision is a farce. She chose constantly to pursue her completely rational and justifiable grievances against Sylvanas. She speaks it out loud in the fight cinematic, accepting that she might lose her life but she'll bring Sylvanas down with her. At that point Elune pulls out the power cord and she loses. After that point Sylvanas is out of reach and she's on the verge of exploding. It's only at this point and with Tyrande having an out of body experience and verging death that she presents her with either choosing renewal, i.e a realm that's basically fine already, or 'vengeance', i.e the defeat of someone who nearly eliminated her race to feed Satan. Tyrande later speaks of all of it as an out of body experience that she doesn't remember Elune's plan for despite Elune saying there was no plan and she just fucked up the delivery.
    The whole plot involving the Night Elves since the beggining of Battle of Azeroth is a gigantic farce, and not a good one at all, from the moment they were made the target of the Horde to this very petty and stupid "revenge is bad, you must seek renewal and peace instead".

  7. #647
    Enlighten me please:

    Elune: "She must choose between Vengeance and Renewal."

    Tyrande: "ELUNE, GIVE ME YOUR POWER TO FINISH OFF SYLVANAS, I CHOOSE VENGEANCE!!!"

    Elune: "Nah jk."

    Like ??????????????? Who writes this garbage?

    I guess the only way to rationalize this is that Elune is an asshole. But she was never presented as an asshole really, at least before BfA (where she did nothing to stop the Horde).

  8. #648
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    I say this:
    Hence calling it a magic lobotomy. She is maneuvered into a position where she can only really make one choice in the loosest possible sense and it's as an out of body moment where her experiences are physically altered to better suit that outcome.

    @sighy

    Tyrande has always been also up for saving night elf souls. The situation as presented is a false dichotomy and one that's additionally skewed because 'choosing vengeance' at the moment Elune presents Tyrande with it would end up with her dead and with zero chance of Sylvanas and when Tyrande attempted to make that choice earlier Elune sabotaged her.

    @Varodoc

    Elune not stopping the Horde is in line with her ability and conduct up to that point. Teldrassil is an irrelevance compared to the entire Night Elf empire and Nordrassil in the War of the Ancients and WC3 respectively where she also did fuck all except empower priestesses and occasionally help save her favorite from the consequences of her single digit IQ.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  9. #649
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Hence calling it a magic lobotomy. She is maneuvered into a position where she can only really make one choice in the loosest possible sense and it's as an out of body moment where her experiences are physically altered to better suit that outcome.

    @sighy

    Tyrande has always been also up for saving night elf souls. The situation as presented is a false dichotomy and one that's additionally skewed because 'choosing vengeance' at the moment Elune presents Tyrande with it would end up with her dead and with zero chance of Sylvanas and when Tyrande attempted to make that choice earlier Elune sabotaged her.

    @Varodoc

    Elune not stopping the Horde is in line with her ability and conduct up to that point. Teldrassil is an irrelevance compared to the entire Night Elf empire and Nordrassil in the War of the Ancients and WC3 respectively where she also did fuck all except empower priestesses and occasionally help save her favorite from the consequences of her single digit IQ.
    Recall that Tyrande avatar of revenge:
    * She made peace with Maiev.
    * She forgive Sira.
    * She save souls from the jaws.
    * She gave an offer of peace, I would say too poisonous.

    Now we have to see if Tyrande "renovation" can really renovate something. Tyrande Revenge is way ahead in Renovacion.

  10. #650
    I've said it before and I'll say it again Maiev getting a barely on-screen verbal pardon for being an attempted regicide is the dumbest shit and smack of blizzard forgetting she was still technically exiled and a criminal in legion.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  11. #651
    What was the point of having Maiev go crazy or even gave her the excuse of her having been "brainwashed" if nothing came out of it and that she was allowed to go back scott free ?
    And during that time she and the other wardens, alongside Malfurion and most of the druids, her brother Jarod and the Shen'dralar and their Kaldorei disciples were away from Ashenvale and their people defenses and didn't do anything to fight against the Horde until that awfully stupid War of Thorns and Darkshore warfront.

  12. #652
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Tyrande's decision is a farce. She chose constantly to pursue her completely rational and justifiable grievances against Sylvanas. She speaks it out loud in the fight cinematic, accepting that she might lose her life but she'll bring Sylvanas down with her. At that point Elune pulls out the power cord and she loses. After that point Sylvanas is out of reach and she's on the verge of exploding. It's only at this point and with Tyrande having an out of body experience and verging death that she presents her with either choosing renewal, i.e a realm that's basically fine already, or 'vengeance', i.e the defeat of someone who nearly eliminated her race to feed Satan. Tyrande later speaks of all of it as an out of body experience that she doesn't remember Elune's plan for despite Elune saying there was no plan and she just fucked up the delivery.
    Shandris says "The Winter Queen spoke of a purpose for the souls of our people. What did she mean?"

    All the Winter Queen said was "By our hand, we may yet guide their souls unto their spring." Beyond that Elune and WQ did not vocalise any plans for the witnesses to hear, and she did not share anything with Tyrande through their connection. It doesn't mean that Tyrande's brain was muddled as to what was going on.

  13. #653
    Well this reveal makes the "Elune created the Naaru" theory even more logical. Just like Elune, the Naaru are also useless fools who would rather preach and talk rather than act. Just look at Xe'ra, she was completely useless. All she did was scream like a silly fangirl over Illidan and then get double-crossed and blasted to smithereens by her own husbando.

  14. #654
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Shandris says "The Winter Queen spoke of a purpose for the souls of our people. What did she mean?"

    All the Winter Queen said was "By our hand, we may yet guide their souls unto their spring." Beyond that Elune and WQ did not vocalise any plans for the witnesses to hear, and she did not share anything with Tyrande through their connection. It doesn't mean that Tyrande's brain was muddled as to what was going on.
    This is something that many did not understand. But it's true Elune basically said that he was going to take them to his heaven.
    And it is something to think that they do not finish precenting. Because when that was the case the Kaldorei were, say, on "Holidays" in SL.

    That way Elune would not be a useless goddess, she just had a plan wrong. But back they do very badly. More than taking revenge from Tyrande.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    What was the point of having Maiev go crazy or even gave her the excuse of her having been "brainwashed" if nothing came out of it and that she was allowed to go back scott free ?
    And during that time she and the other wardens, alongside Malfurion and most of the druids, her brother Jarod and the Shen'dralar and their Kaldorei disciples were away from Ashenvale and their people defenses and didn't do anything to fight against the Horde until that awfully stupid War of Thorns and Darkshore warfront.
    First of all. That novel was ignored and even in that novel Tyrande already forgives her. So in the Conflict Maiev vs Tyrande they are all on Maiev's side. Even Tyrande.

    About the Wardens not being bad that they are not. Because they were in the Broken Isles. (because only a call via a vision from Elune could change everything)

  15. #655
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Shandris says "The Winter Queen spoke of a purpose for the souls of our people. What did she mean?"

    All the Winter Queen said was "By our hand, we may yet guide their souls unto their spring." Beyond that Elune and WQ did not vocalise any plans for the witnesses to hear, and she did not share anything with Tyrande through their connection. It doesn't mean that Tyrande's brain was muddled as to what was going on.
    Tyrande herself refers to herself as a spectator in the goings on in and out of body experience and had nearly exploded in the questline preceding it. Her view at the time was skewed. The Winter Queen has no greater insight than Elune does and Elune admitted that it was just a screw up. The second she picks the only choice she has available Tyrande becomes a peacenik.

    @geco

    It will never stop being sad or funny that WC3 Tyrande was more hardline than Night Warrior Tyrande in all regards and didn't necessitate some tortured plot tool to get her to that point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    What was the point of having Maiev go crazy or even gave her the excuse of her having been "brainwashed" if nothing came out of it and that she was allowed to go back scott free ?
    And during that time she and the other wardens, alongside Malfurion and most of the druids, her brother Jarod and the Shen'dralar and their Kaldorei disciples were away from Ashenvale and their people defenses and didn't do anything to fight against the Horde until that awfully stupid War of Thorns and Darkshore warfront.
    The novel was hot garbage and Maiev was the only carrier of what was the only night elf perspective that is unique, conducive to conflict and reflective of their background up to that point. Maiev being forgiven was a good start, but tossing out the book entirely would have been a good follow-up. It's not her rejecting the Shendralar and aiming to kill them that was off it's everyone else ignoring that they were walking proof of every night elf grievance with arcane use coming to life and had snacked on a demon for 10k years after culling their population in successive purges.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  16. #656
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Tyrande herself refers to herself as a spectator in the goings on in and out of body experience and had nearly exploded in the questline preceding it. Her view at the time was skewed. The Winter Queen has no greater insight than Elune does and Elune admitted that it was just a screw up. The second she picks the only choice she has available Tyrande becomes a peacenik.
    @geco

    It will never stop being sad or funny that WC3 Tyrande was more hardline than Night Warrior Tyrande in all regards and didn't necessitate some tortured plot tool to get her to that point.
    You know spectators can see things perfectly well? Being a spectator to two people talking does not mean that you don't understand what they are saying, that your mind is being warped or view being skewed. It means that Shandris and Tyrande both spectated the event but did not actively take part, for Tyrandee this was like an out-of-body experience because she was spectating while her body was participating.

    The Winter Queen says that going forward the Night Elf souls, starting with Tyrande, can be guided "unto their spring."

    Shandris references this - "The Winter Queen spoke of a purpose for the souls of our people. What did she mean?"

    These plans were not verbalised, no-one said what they were. Tyrande is not ignorant of them because her mind was warped and she can not remember, it's because what the plans involve was not discussed.

  17. #657
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    You know spectators can see things perfectly well? Being a spectator to two people talking does not mean that you don't understand what they are saying, that your mind is being warped or view being skewed. It means that Shandris and Tyrande both spectated the event but did not actively take part, for Tyrandee this was like an out-of-body experience because she was spectating while her body was participating.

    The Winter Queen says that going forward the Night Elf souls, starting with Tyrande, can be guided "unto their spring."

    Shandris references this - "The Winter Queen spoke of a purpose for the souls of our people. What did she mean?"

    These plans were not verbalised, no-one said what they were. Tyrande is not ignorant of them because her mind was warped and she can not remember, it's because what the plans involve was not discussed.
    A spectator is by definition not a participant. If we accept it at its most literal then she's even less an actor in making her decision than she already was regarding 'renewal' or 'vengeance' as she's just watching this bs with the rest while Elune puppets her body.

    That having been said it is true that Tyrande may not be mentally warped she may also have come out of this happening an Anduinist despite full awareness of her circumstances. It'd not be any more implausible than the Kul Tirans deciding Daelin was wrong about the Horde after the Horde invade their land and go on an indiscriminate killing spree.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  18. #658
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Well this reveal makes the "Elune created the Naaru" theory even more logical. Just like Elune, the Naaru are also useless fools who would rather preach and talk rather than act. Just look at Xe'ra, she was completely useless. All she did was scream like a silly fangirl over Illidan and then get double-crossed and blasted to smithereens by her own husbando.
    The Army of Light is one of the biggest disappointments in WOW, they were supposed to be a super coalition of many races guided by the Naaru yet it was turned into a small army composed almost exclusively of Lightforged Draenei with only one human, nathrezim and HE as other members and them being only supervised by one Naaruu.

  19. #659
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    she dont send them "wherever she wishes", she can claim there for her own (make them wisps or whatnot) or NOT, in which case they go to shadowlands like every other soul, she just counted on elf going into ardenweald due to their ties with nature...

    hmm which religion... all the polyteistic?
    closest similar is nordic - Odyn chose which wariors are worthy to go with him to valhalla, those he did not chose went elsewhere, and he had no power over them, or where they end up...
    Odyn only had that power due to the Valkyr which he copied from Bastion.

  20. #660
    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    Odyn only had that power due to the Valkyr which he copied from Bastion.
    But it was given to him by Muehzala or something affiliated to the Jailer, in exchange for the eye.

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