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  1. #641
    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    After stewing on it for a bit I'd say that there is a direct implication of Elune having an active influence in terms of making a conscious action or inaction, which directly influenced the souls going into Shadowlands.

    -Night Elves normally having an alt afterlife makes no sense, because even Wild Gods go to Ardenweald and it'd make the whole retcon plot about Sylvanas planning to burn it all along so she can send loads of souls to the maw sound even mroe stupid than it already is.
    But Night Elf can turn into whisps so even if there is no special Elune-life afterlife she could have turned them all into wisps and that way not entering SL.
    Also (some) Trolls have an alternative afterlife aswell.
    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    -Taliesin did notice that the music, whens Elune talks about the cascade of souls is the same it was on the Crossroads, when the Horde departed for the War of thorns, which could have wild implications.
    Which one? Maybe it's just there for speculation content.

    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    -Last and wierdest option is that she put stamps on all the souls like "Oi this is for Ardenweald", which also doesn't make sense, because then she wouldn't have condemned shit and Arbiter is not supposed to work like that anyway.
    We have enough cases where spirits get passed by the Arbiter so I don't think this is a problem.

  2. #642
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smallfruitbat View Post
    Why then would the Winter Queen be asking Elune for aid? -I realise we have no firm answer to that but what was she expected to do.

    It reads to me that she overstepped her bounds bypassing the Arbiter and attempting to send the NE souls to Ardenweald.
    Elune is the power set over Life, and the realms of Death were themselves dying due to Drought, which would in turn likely collapse the entire metacosm as they are all inextricably bound. The Winter Queen needed an influx of anima to sustain Death, and so Elune appears to have earmarked a collection of souls to Ardenweald to fix the problem (not knowing that Zovaal had broken the system and would claim those souls). We don't really know if she was going to bypass the Arbiter, so to speak, as it may well be in Elune's purview to decide where those souls would go, given the Night Elves seem to be her people, so to speak.

    There's a lot of known unknowns, though; so right now it's all down to speculation and hypotheticals.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  3. #643
    Quote Originally Posted by TriHard View Post
    You can't do better.
    my cat here would write better than them lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by HateTrain View Post
    I normally believed that in general about people that criticize professional writers, but at this point I'd give that ole "DemonHunter18" a pretty good chance of at least matching the quality of this.
    calling them like that is an insult to real professional writers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    They had no prior build-up and instead tried to leech off of already established things people are familiar with. The Scourge? Maldraxxus did that. The Lich King? The Jailer did that. Frostmourne? The Runecarver made that. Sargeras corruption by demons and everything resulting from that? Also the Jailer's plan.

  4. #644
    Quote Originally Posted by TriHard View Post
    You can't do better.
    a 10y old child could write this. every second rate author could write better.

    and even if he couldnt, its no excuse. a shit story is a shit story, no matter if you can write a better one or not. doesnt change the fact that its a shit story.
    The crooked shitposter with no eyes is watching from the endless thread.

    From the space that is everywhere and nowhere, the crooked shitposter feasts on memes.

    He has no eyes to see, but he dreams of infinite memeing and trolling.

  5. #645
    Quote Originally Posted by Smallfruitbat View Post
    My initial reaction to the cinematic was that they were trying to let Sylvanas off the hook because there was a purpose for the Night Elves to die.
    How does this let Sylvanas off the hook? She still ordered the burning of the tree, regardless of what Elune may or may not have wanted. We still know she was attempting to maximize casualties during the war. She's still culpable for her actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Elune is the power set over Life, and the realms of Death were themselves dying due to Drought, which would in turn likely collapse the entire metacosm as they are all inextricably bound. The Winter Queen needed an influx of anima to sustain Death, and so Elune appears to have earmarked a collection of souls to Ardenweald to fix the problem (not knowing that Zovaal had broken the system and would claim those souls). We don't really know if she was going to bypass the Arbiter, so to speak, as it may well be in Elune's purview to decide where those souls would go, given the Night Elves seem to be her people, so to speak.

    There's a lot of known unknowns, though; so right now it's all down to speculation and hypotheticals.
    Bwonsamdi specifically moves troll souls to De Other Side, even when the Arbiter is broken (he has Rastakhan's soul, for instance, and Rastakhan died well after the machine of death allegedly broke). We also know that Elune had some hand in ferrying Ysera's soul to Ardenweald. Given that, I think there's good supporting evidence toward the theory that the majority of Elune's people would go to Ardenweald under normal circumstances. However, we also know that not all of them do, since the Stonewright and Khalliq were also Elune worshippers, and obviously the Night Elves from Teldrassil went to the Maw, so the Arbiter still plays some role.

  6. #646
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    Bwonsamdi specifically moves troll souls to De Other Side, even when the Arbiter is broken (he has Rastakhan's soul, for instance, and Rastakhan died well after the machine of death allegedly broke). We also know that Elune had some hand in ferrying Ysera's soul to Ardenweald. Given that, I think there's good supporting evidence toward the theory that the majority of Elune's people would go to Ardenweald under normal circumstances. However, we also know that not all of them do, since the Stonewright and Khalliq were also Elune worshippers, and obviously the Night Elves from Teldrassil went to the Maw, so the Arbiter still plays some role.
    De Other Side appears to be a temporary waystation for souls, given that we see the souls of trolls in Bastion, Ardenweald, and (at least based on nomenclature) Revendreth as well. It seems the basic set-up is that Bwonsamdi vouchsafes souls in his realm for a time, possibly to extract a toll of anima, and then releases said souls to the Arbiter so they can reach an ultimate destination in one of the many realms of the Shadowlands. Bwonsamdi can still hold onto souls at current in De Other Side, but there's a powerful "pull" being exerted by the Maw - Bwonsamdi relates in Shadows Rising that his grip is both tenuous and can't last long if the current state of affairs in Oribos persists.

    As for the kaldorei souls, there seems to be a variety of possible outcomes that might not necessarily imply Ardenweald is their default destination or even the majority one. Elune could use their racial link to the Emerald Dream to tie them to her realm, presumably that of Life, and so use their anima or the corresponding essence in the realms of Life to fuel Life itself, perhaps in the form of Wisps or any number of possible outcomes. It's just that in this case, due to the suffering of Ardenweald and the pleas of her sister in Death, she earmarked the dead of Teldrassil for Death instead of ushering them into her own realm, as a way of trying to restore balance to the cosmic cycle that exists between them.

    Again, this is entirely hypothetical at the moment as we don't know how Elune or her realm functions.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  7. #647
    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    After stewing on it for a bit I'd say that there is a direct implication of Elune having an active influence in terms of making a conscious action or inaction, which directly influenced the souls going into Shadowlands.
    Hypothetically speaking. With all this cinematic suddenly Tyrande does not seek Justice.

    I see it as either "if he seeks Justice now he has to kill Elune as well." Being that Elune works as a shield.
    Or that now Elune is the one who competes the Kaldorei for her failure. And then the debs hope that is also compensation for the Horde and Sylvanas.

  8. #648
    Mechagnome Archmage Xaxxas's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Elune indirectly caused Teldrassil, not just allowed it.

    Sylvanas' plan in short was: Kill Malfurion, break the spirit of the Kaldorei, hold them hostage until the Alliance came to liberate them, and then pounce on Stormwind for the anima.

    Elune stops Saurfang from killing Malfurion, making Sylvanas' plan awash and she had to improvise. This is exactly what causes the split decision to burn Teldrassil.

    "Ogmot sees lady wrapped in dark swirlies. She leads herd of blind sheep.

    Da sheepies follow her everplace she go. Do everthin she say. Never doubt lady.

    She guide dem over tall cliff! SPLAT SPLAT SPLAT! Stupid sheepies!

    Da crows get fat eatin da sheepflesh. Da lady laugh as crows eat!"


    The War of Thorns could well have been Elune guiding her sheep off the cliff, right into The Maw.

    Night Elves follow Elune -far more blindly- than the Horde did Sylvanas. The Horde doubted Sylvanas every step of the way. Are we sure this is about her?

    Crackpot theory: Titans imprisoned Elune in the Pale Lady, (this creates the first Tear), and Elune bargained with Zovaal to reforge reality. She fed the Maw knowingly, believing the cost was worth the outcome. Now that Zovaal has gone off the wall evil, she will take him out once she's freed.

    She may not have known what Sylvanas would do, but are we to just take it for granted that Elune couldn't think ahead to what saving Malfurion would do?
    Is Elune just as short-mannered as Sylvanas? lol Likely not, I sure hope not at least.
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  9. #649
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    You’re suggesting that Elune knew about the souls going to the Maw when the cinematic directly says the opposite?

    Also Elune didn’t stop Saurfang from killing Malfurion. He stopped on his own

  10. #650
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    So elune didn’t safe the night elfs because her sister needed souls? That’s so incredibly stupid.
    Nu uh, u see, Sylvanas was right and was merely a tool for elune godly hands to anihiliate the world tree and genocide a race.

    Sylvanas is reedemed.

    Teldrasil is freeeeee!

    Danuser jizzed his pants.

  11. #651
    Quote Originally Posted by Archmage Xaxxas View Post
    ...
    If you see a little the cinematics we have.

    Tyrande: REVENGE. DIE IF NECESSARY. THIS HATE IS MINE, NOT ELUNE'S
    * Elune the pose *
    Tyrande: Well let's renew no more hate.

    I say sounds more than "follow" is mind control.

  12. #652
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    But Night Elf can turn into whisps so even if there is no special Elune-life afterlife she could have turned them all into wisps and that way not entering SL.
    Also (some) Trolls have an alternative afterlife aswell.
    The Troll afterlife has been revealed to be a subsection of Ardenweald, unless you count Hakkar's belly. And the Whisp thing has suffered almost as inconsistent characterisation as Elune herself, on which i already had several tangents, in other threads and maybe even this one.

    Which one? Maybe it's just there for speculation content.
    It's froma twitter discussion with Belular and Nobbel. T&E aren't all too keen on covering WoW any sooner than they absolutely have to outside contract obligations, with sponsors.

    I see some similarities, but it strikes me more as an assocciation than actual repeat track, after listening to videos i could find.


    We have enough cases where spirits get passed by the Arbiter so I don't think this is a problem.
    Then there is still the logic flaw of her feeling responsible, for what would effectively be sending something via post office and finding out it was violently robbed, with all the packages and letters stolen, in which case there would be no reason for her to take ownership of it as her own mistake since she would not have directly contributed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    Hypothetically speaking. With all this cinematic suddenly Tyrande does not seek Justice.

    I see it as either "if he seeks Justice now he has to kill Elune as well." Being that Elune works as a shield.
    Or that now Elune is the one who competes the Kaldorei for her failure. And then the debs hope that is also compensation for the Horde and Sylvanas.
    I would personally view it as Tyrande being shown her life means more than Sylvanas's death to those who care about her including Elune. Since Elune clearly plays favorites even among her favorites.

    I know it's tripe and clishe in all the possible ways, but if we take Elune as a primarily constructive force within the setting the Night Warrior could be potentially interpreted as an almost dark shaman like brute force invocation, where her power is not really meant to be used like that then it makes sense she would push toward nurturing and even rehabilitation, while saving Tyrande would require Tyrande to willfully relinquish it.

  13. #653
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    If you see a little the cinematics we have.

    Tyrande: REVENGE. DIE IF NECESSARY. THIS HATE IS MINE, NOT ELUNE'S
    * Elune the pose *
    Tyrande: Well let's renew no more hate.

    I say sounds more than "follow" is mind control.
    Part of Elune's normal portfolio of attributes is serenity, contemplation, peace, and harmony - it's quite likely that Tyrande touched this aspect of Elune during their communion in Ardenweald and it helped to smooth away some of anger and rage. Whether you call that "mind control" is a bit subjective, but I would definitely say that the presence of Elune had a profound effect on her (as well as the notion that there was some recourse for the kaldorei in light of what happened at Teldrassil).
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  14. #654
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    Eh... Gorribal is a sword.
    Yes the huge sword plunged into azeroth, which we drained with our artifact weapons, at the end of Legion, when it radiated dark red. According to RPG it was sentient and large portions surrounding that were canonised so it could make for a twist, when Blizz decides to reveal what wrecked the Arbiter.

  15. #655
    Quote Originally Posted by Clone View Post
    How do living breathing night elves become wisps?
    Lol.......

    Let me make it real simple: Teldrassil ( burning happens). In normal times all the night elves that died would have become wisps. But instead they where sent to the shadowlands by elune.

    So they where no longer alive. The way you become a wisp is to die :P. My god, that is basic wow.

  16. #656
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandragon View Post
    Seeing the replies in this thread, shows the big issue with WoW. Blizzard is writing a story for people who dont or refuse to understand the story. First of all, Elune is not omnipotent. She doesnt know everything. Her and the Winter Queen are 2 sides of a coin, does the Winter Queen know everything? No. Also, Elune, like a lot of god-like beings, doesnt directly interfere with the actions of mortals.

    She is bound to the cycle of life and death like every other being in existence. To prevent the death of the Night Elves would be a violation of nature itself. She took the opportunity of all those Night Elves dying to send them right to Ardenweald so they could be at peace and fuel the place with anima. She did not know that the Maw was consuming everything. Not even the denizens of the Shadowlands knew that. When the Eternal ones meet at the start of the expansion, Kyrestia asked how the Maw suddenly grew in power. These are powerful immortal beings, not omniscient gods.

    Elune knew there was an anima drought in Ardenweald because of the cries for aid she got, but that doesnt mean "zomg everythings going to the Maw". There could be a drought for hundreds of reasons. If the Arbitor doesnt send enough souls there because not enough nature bound beings die, then there would be a drought. If too many Devourers show up and dont get contained, there's going to be a drought.

    The drought did not happen because all souls are going to the Maw, it happened because Denathrius stole all the anima that was available to send it to the Maw. Without that, the realms would have had a lot of anima for a decent amount of time.

    Wow's writing is not much different than any other fantasy story. Everything in the game makes sense if you take more than a second to understand it, rather than bitch about it.
    Yes! Great post. As you pointed out, and ive mentioned before, its NOT Elunes role to be God (with a capital G) and be the sole arbiter of what deaths should be 'allowed' in reality. Directly stopping all deaths on a whim, even 'her favoured children', and even at the hand of tragedy like the elves and Teldrassil, is not Elunes place - and could even be called a violation of The Great Cycle itself. This is likely why shes intervened so rarely over the years.

    Look I understand lots of people, over ~20 years of buildup, expect Elune to be the ultimate Goddess (with a capital G) of Warcraft. And... shes not - and people are understandably a little confused/shocked/dissappointed. To suddenly find out Elune is not all powerful, not all-knowing.. and not infallible.

    Personally I think this makes Elune a more interesting character. It would be boring if she was all-everything.

    I also think us players naturally think of Life+Death in completely different ways to cosmic powers like Elune/Winter Queen. Life and death is merely the turning of a page, in an endless book of pages (ie the great cycle). Its not some kind of ultimate defining moment or end. People think "Elune didnt stop the DEATH of the elves", like thats an enormous defining end-event. That makes sense with a human context, but not from cosmic context - for them its just another page turn in the great cycle.
    Last edited by TyrianFC; 2021-07-29 at 08:03 PM.

  17. #657
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Literally lobotomized into being a peacenik.
    That's a really poor take on it. She said she was as much a witness as Shandris, and Shandris was right there. It means Tyrande felt separate to her physical body that was having the conversation.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    We can only assume that Elune turns them into wisps or maybe she has her own realm where she takes them. From what we saw in BfA not all of the Night Elfs turn into wisps. We need more information on this to know what usually happens.
    Some could become wisps and I'd say the evidence seen right across Azeroth implies a lot would stick around to be vengeful or at least disgruntled spirits.

    A lot would probably have been cast off to other afterlives. While all NElves have some sort of connection to nature they aren't all dedicated wood-warriors full time. Many probably go to whatever plane of existence best suits them.

  18. #658
    Btw, Tyrande in the new quest just confirmed that she picked renewal over retribution :
    "I see now that while many of our people desire retribution, what we need most is renewal".


    This is for people who still defend this writing and used tons of mental gymnastic and hypocrisy to make it sounds like that Tyrande could have still both renewal and justice.

  19. #659
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    That's a really poor take on it. She said she was as much a witness as Shandris, and Shandris was right there. It means Tyrande felt separate to her physical body that was having the conversation.
    Tyrande's decision is a farce. She chose constantly to pursue her completely rational and justifiable grievances against Sylvanas. She speaks it out loud in the fight cinematic, accepting that she might lose her life but she'll bring Sylvanas down with her. At that point Elune pulls out the power cord and she loses. After that point Sylvanas is out of reach and she's on the verge of exploding. It's only at this point and with Tyrande having an out of body experience and verging death that she presents her with either choosing renewal, i.e a realm that's basically fine already, or 'vengeance', i.e the defeat of someone who nearly eliminated her race to feed Satan. Tyrande later speaks of all of it as an out of body experience that she doesn't remember Elune's plan for despite Elune saying there was no plan and she just fucked up the delivery.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  20. #660
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Tyrande's decision is a farce. She chose constantly to pursue her completely rational and justifiable grievances against Sylvanas. She speaks it out loud in the fight cinematic, accepting that she might lose her life but she'll bring Sylvanas down with her. At that point Elune pulls out the power cord and she loses. After that point Sylvanas is out of reach and she's on the verge of exploding. It's only at this point and with Tyrande having an out of body experience and verging death that she presents her with either choosing renewal, i.e a realm that's basically fine already, or 'vengeance', i.e the defeat of someone who nearly eliminated her race to feed Satan. Tyrande later speaks of all of it as an out of body experience that she doesn't remember Elune's plan for despite Elune saying there was no plan and she just fucked up the delivery.
    I say this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Part of Elune's normal portfolio of attributes is serenity, contemplation, peace, and harmony - it's quite likely that Tyrande touched this aspect of Elune during their communion in Ardenweald and it helped to smooth away some of anger and rage. Whether you call that "mind control" is a bit subjective, but I would definitely say that the presence of Elune had a profound effect on her (as well as the notion that there was some recourse for the kaldorei in light of what happened at Teldrassil).

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