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  1. #661
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Tyrande's decision is a farce. She chose constantly to pursue her completely rational and justifiable grievances against Sylvanas. She speaks it out loud in the fight cinematic, accepting that she might lose her life but she'll bring Sylvanas down with her. At that point Elune pulls out the power cord and she loses. After that point Sylvanas is out of reach and she's on the verge of exploding. It's only at this point and with Tyrande having an out of body experience and verging death that she presents her with either choosing renewal, i.e a realm that's basically fine already, or 'vengeance', i.e the defeat of someone who nearly eliminated her race to feed Satan. Tyrande later speaks of all of it as an out of body experience that she doesn't remember Elune's plan for despite Elune saying there was no plan and she just fucked up the delivery.
    The Renewal thing, in context of the cinematic was a hopeful note that together they can yet save the lost Kaldorei souls starting with Tyrande herself.

  2. #662
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Tyrande's decision is a farce. She chose constantly to pursue her completely rational and justifiable grievances against Sylvanas. She speaks it out loud in the fight cinematic, accepting that she might lose her life but she'll bring Sylvanas down with her. At that point Elune pulls out the power cord and she loses. After that point Sylvanas is out of reach and she's on the verge of exploding. It's only at this point and with Tyrande having an out of body experience and verging death that she presents her with either choosing renewal, i.e a realm that's basically fine already, or 'vengeance', i.e the defeat of someone who nearly eliminated her race to feed Satan. Tyrande later speaks of all of it as an out of body experience that she doesn't remember Elune's plan for despite Elune saying there was no plan and she just fucked up the delivery.
    The whole plot involving the Night Elves since the beggining of Battle of Azeroth is a gigantic farce, and not a good one at all, from the moment they were made the target of the Horde to this very petty and stupid "revenge is bad, you must seek renewal and peace instead".

  3. #663
    Enlighten me please:

    Elune: "She must choose between Vengeance and Renewal."

    Tyrande: "ELUNE, GIVE ME YOUR POWER TO FINISH OFF SYLVANAS, I CHOOSE VENGEANCE!!!"

    Elune: "Nah jk."

    Like ??????????????? Who writes this garbage?

    I guess the only way to rationalize this is that Elune is an asshole. But she was never presented as an asshole really, at least before BfA (where she did nothing to stop the Horde).

  4. #664
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    I say this:
    Hence calling it a magic lobotomy. She is maneuvered into a position where she can only really make one choice in the loosest possible sense and it's as an out of body moment where her experiences are physically altered to better suit that outcome.

    @sighy

    Tyrande has always been also up for saving night elf souls. The situation as presented is a false dichotomy and one that's additionally skewed because 'choosing vengeance' at the moment Elune presents Tyrande with it would end up with her dead and with zero chance of Sylvanas and when Tyrande attempted to make that choice earlier Elune sabotaged her.

    @Varodoc

    Elune not stopping the Horde is in line with her ability and conduct up to that point. Teldrassil is an irrelevance compared to the entire Night Elf empire and Nordrassil in the War of the Ancients and WC3 respectively where she also did fuck all except empower priestesses and occasionally help save her favorite from the consequences of her single digit IQ.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  5. #665
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Hence calling it a magic lobotomy. She is maneuvered into a position where she can only really make one choice in the loosest possible sense and it's as an out of body moment where her experiences are physically altered to better suit that outcome.

    @sighy

    Tyrande has always been also up for saving night elf souls. The situation as presented is a false dichotomy and one that's additionally skewed because 'choosing vengeance' at the moment Elune presents Tyrande with it would end up with her dead and with zero chance of Sylvanas and when Tyrande attempted to make that choice earlier Elune sabotaged her.

    @Varodoc

    Elune not stopping the Horde is in line with her ability and conduct up to that point. Teldrassil is an irrelevance compared to the entire Night Elf empire and Nordrassil in the War of the Ancients and WC3 respectively where she also did fuck all except empower priestesses and occasionally help save her favorite from the consequences of her single digit IQ.
    Recall that Tyrande avatar of revenge:
    * She made peace with Maiev.
    * She forgive Sira.
    * She save souls from the jaws.
    * She gave an offer of peace, I would say too poisonous.

    Now we have to see if Tyrande "renovation" can really renovate something. Tyrande Revenge is way ahead in Renovacion.

  6. #666
    I've said it before and I'll say it again Maiev getting a barely on-screen verbal pardon for being an attempted regicide is the dumbest shit and smack of blizzard forgetting she was still technically exiled and a criminal in legion.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  7. #667
    What was the point of having Maiev go crazy or even gave her the excuse of her having been "brainwashed" if nothing came out of it and that she was allowed to go back scott free ?
    And during that time she and the other wardens, alongside Malfurion and most of the druids, her brother Jarod and the Shen'dralar and their Kaldorei disciples were away from Ashenvale and their people defenses and didn't do anything to fight against the Horde until that awfully stupid War of Thorns and Darkshore warfront.

  8. #668
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Tyrande's decision is a farce. She chose constantly to pursue her completely rational and justifiable grievances against Sylvanas. She speaks it out loud in the fight cinematic, accepting that she might lose her life but she'll bring Sylvanas down with her. At that point Elune pulls out the power cord and she loses. After that point Sylvanas is out of reach and she's on the verge of exploding. It's only at this point and with Tyrande having an out of body experience and verging death that she presents her with either choosing renewal, i.e a realm that's basically fine already, or 'vengeance', i.e the defeat of someone who nearly eliminated her race to feed Satan. Tyrande later speaks of all of it as an out of body experience that she doesn't remember Elune's plan for despite Elune saying there was no plan and she just fucked up the delivery.
    Shandris says "The Winter Queen spoke of a purpose for the souls of our people. What did she mean?"

    All the Winter Queen said was "By our hand, we may yet guide their souls unto their spring." Beyond that Elune and WQ did not vocalise any plans for the witnesses to hear, and she did not share anything with Tyrande through their connection. It doesn't mean that Tyrande's brain was muddled as to what was going on.

  9. #669
    Well this reveal makes the "Elune created the Naaru" theory even more logical. Just like Elune, the Naaru are also useless fools who would rather preach and talk rather than act. Just look at Xe'ra, she was completely useless. All she did was scream like a silly fangirl over Illidan and then get double-crossed and blasted to smithereens by her own husbando.

  10. #670
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Shandris says "The Winter Queen spoke of a purpose for the souls of our people. What did she mean?"

    All the Winter Queen said was "By our hand, we may yet guide their souls unto their spring." Beyond that Elune and WQ did not vocalise any plans for the witnesses to hear, and she did not share anything with Tyrande through their connection. It doesn't mean that Tyrande's brain was muddled as to what was going on.
    This is something that many did not understand. But it's true Elune basically said that he was going to take them to his heaven.
    And it is something to think that they do not finish precenting. Because when that was the case the Kaldorei were, say, on "Holidays" in SL.

    That way Elune would not be a useless goddess, she just had a plan wrong. But back they do very badly. More than taking revenge from Tyrande.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    What was the point of having Maiev go crazy or even gave her the excuse of her having been "brainwashed" if nothing came out of it and that she was allowed to go back scott free ?
    And during that time she and the other wardens, alongside Malfurion and most of the druids, her brother Jarod and the Shen'dralar and their Kaldorei disciples were away from Ashenvale and their people defenses and didn't do anything to fight against the Horde until that awfully stupid War of Thorns and Darkshore warfront.
    First of all. That novel was ignored and even in that novel Tyrande already forgives her. So in the Conflict Maiev vs Tyrande they are all on Maiev's side. Even Tyrande.

    About the Wardens not being bad that they are not. Because they were in the Broken Isles. (because only a call via a vision from Elune could change everything)

  11. #671
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Shandris says "The Winter Queen spoke of a purpose for the souls of our people. What did she mean?"

    All the Winter Queen said was "By our hand, we may yet guide their souls unto their spring." Beyond that Elune and WQ did not vocalise any plans for the witnesses to hear, and she did not share anything with Tyrande through their connection. It doesn't mean that Tyrande's brain was muddled as to what was going on.
    Tyrande herself refers to herself as a spectator in the goings on in and out of body experience and had nearly exploded in the questline preceding it. Her view at the time was skewed. The Winter Queen has no greater insight than Elune does and Elune admitted that it was just a screw up. The second she picks the only choice she has available Tyrande becomes a peacenik.

    @geco

    It will never stop being sad or funny that WC3 Tyrande was more hardline than Night Warrior Tyrande in all regards and didn't necessitate some tortured plot tool to get her to that point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    What was the point of having Maiev go crazy or even gave her the excuse of her having been "brainwashed" if nothing came out of it and that she was allowed to go back scott free ?
    And during that time she and the other wardens, alongside Malfurion and most of the druids, her brother Jarod and the Shen'dralar and their Kaldorei disciples were away from Ashenvale and their people defenses and didn't do anything to fight against the Horde until that awfully stupid War of Thorns and Darkshore warfront.
    The novel was hot garbage and Maiev was the only carrier of what was the only night elf perspective that is unique, conducive to conflict and reflective of their background up to that point. Maiev being forgiven was a good start, but tossing out the book entirely would have been a good follow-up. It's not her rejecting the Shendralar and aiming to kill them that was off it's everyone else ignoring that they were walking proof of every night elf grievance with arcane use coming to life and had snacked on a demon for 10k years after culling their population in successive purges.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  12. #672
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Tyrande herself refers to herself as a spectator in the goings on in and out of body experience and had nearly exploded in the questline preceding it. Her view at the time was skewed. The Winter Queen has no greater insight than Elune does and Elune admitted that it was just a screw up. The second she picks the only choice she has available Tyrande becomes a peacenik.
    @geco

    It will never stop being sad or funny that WC3 Tyrande was more hardline than Night Warrior Tyrande in all regards and didn't necessitate some tortured plot tool to get her to that point.
    You know spectators can see things perfectly well? Being a spectator to two people talking does not mean that you don't understand what they are saying, that your mind is being warped or view being skewed. It means that Shandris and Tyrande both spectated the event but did not actively take part, for Tyrandee this was like an out-of-body experience because she was spectating while her body was participating.

    The Winter Queen says that going forward the Night Elf souls, starting with Tyrande, can be guided "unto their spring."

    Shandris references this - "The Winter Queen spoke of a purpose for the souls of our people. What did she mean?"

    These plans were not verbalised, no-one said what they were. Tyrande is not ignorant of them because her mind was warped and she can not remember, it's because what the plans involve was not discussed.

  13. #673
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    You know spectators can see things perfectly well? Being a spectator to two people talking does not mean that you don't understand what they are saying, that your mind is being warped or view being skewed. It means that Shandris and Tyrande both spectated the event but did not actively take part, for Tyrandee this was like an out-of-body experience because she was spectating while her body was participating.

    The Winter Queen says that going forward the Night Elf souls, starting with Tyrande, can be guided "unto their spring."

    Shandris references this - "The Winter Queen spoke of a purpose for the souls of our people. What did she mean?"

    These plans were not verbalised, no-one said what they were. Tyrande is not ignorant of them because her mind was warped and she can not remember, it's because what the plans involve was not discussed.
    A spectator is by definition not a participant. If we accept it at its most literal then she's even less an actor in making her decision than she already was regarding 'renewal' or 'vengeance' as she's just watching this bs with the rest while Elune puppets her body.

    That having been said it is true that Tyrande may not be mentally warped she may also have come out of this happening an Anduinist despite full awareness of her circumstances. It'd not be any more implausible than the Kul Tirans deciding Daelin was wrong about the Horde after the Horde invade their land and go on an indiscriminate killing spree.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  14. #674
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Well this reveal makes the "Elune created the Naaru" theory even more logical. Just like Elune, the Naaru are also useless fools who would rather preach and talk rather than act. Just look at Xe'ra, she was completely useless. All she did was scream like a silly fangirl over Illidan and then get double-crossed and blasted to smithereens by her own husbando.
    The Army of Light is one of the biggest disappointments in WOW, they were supposed to be a super coalition of many races guided by the Naaru yet it was turned into a small army composed almost exclusively of Lightforged Draenei with only one human, nathrezim and HE as other members and them being only supervised by one Naaruu.

  15. #675
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    she dont send them "wherever she wishes", she can claim there for her own (make them wisps or whatnot) or NOT, in which case they go to shadowlands like every other soul, she just counted on elf going into ardenweald due to their ties with nature...

    hmm which religion... all the polyteistic?
    closest similar is nordic - Odyn chose which wariors are worthy to go with him to valhalla, those he did not chose went elsewhere, and he had no power over them, or where they end up...
    Odyn only had that power due to the Valkyr which he copied from Bastion.

  16. #676
    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    Odyn only had that power due to the Valkyr which he copied from Bastion.
    But it was given to him by Muehzala or something affiliated to the Jailer, in exchange for the eye.

  17. #677
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    A spectator is by definition not a participant. If we accept it at its most literal then she's even less an actor in making her decision than she already was regarding 'renewal' or 'vengeance' as she's just watching this bs with the rest while Elune puppets her body.
    Depends on the context in question - spectators can certainly be affected by what they're experiencing or observing, and in a broader context could certainly be considered participants to a particular occurrence or phenomenon. Tyrande was most definitely a participant in this particular context, even though she relates a sense of being outside herself she is involved in the decision on a fundamental level - Elune literally puts it into her hands.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  18. #678
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Tyrande herself refers to herself as a spectator in the goings on in and out of body experience and had nearly exploded in the questline preceding it. Her view at the time was skewed. The Winter Queen has no greater insight than Elune does and Elune admitted that it was just a screw up. The second she picks the only choice she has available Tyrande becomes a peacenik.
    I would not say that this is entirely true, Tyrande does not toss away revenge entirely. This entire conversation about revenge vs renewal has been going on since 8.2.5 in Boralus.
    Shandris thinks renewal is more important than revenge... but she also says that this does not mean that they forget about it
    Maiev is all for revenge as expected...

    Keep also in mind, the whole Night Warrior thing also warped Tyrande's mind, in the end, she attacks everyone, even her own daughter. So with a clear mind, Tyrande could have come to the conclusion that renewal is more important for now.

    Elune let Tyrande decide that is pretty obvious.

    Also we know from the new Kalimdor book that Night Elfs won't let Horde into their land. So there will be no revenge, at least not in a very direct way but I don't think we can conclude that Tyrande becomes a peacenik... yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    Then there is still the logic flaw of her feeling responsible, for what would effectively be sending something via post office and finding out it was violently robbed, with all the packages and letters stolen, in which case there would be no reason for her to take ownership of it as her own mistake since she would not have directly contributed.
    Well yes of course it was not her fault. She still sent them to the Shadowlands...since it is her action she still can feel guilty about it. I don't think there is anything flawed about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    It's not unexplained....she literally says her motives in the cutscene....?
    She says what her motive is but her action only started after everyone was dead/dying on Teldrassil. She did not say that she let them purposefully die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    That's a really poor take on it. She said she was as much a witness as Shandris, and Shandris was right there. It means Tyrande felt separate to her physical body that was having the conversation.
    Some could become wisps and I'd say the evidence seen right across Azeroth implies a lot would stick around to be vengeful or at least disgruntled spirits.

    A lot would probably have been cast off to other afterlives. While all Nelves have some sort of connection to nature they aren't all dedicated wood-warriors full time. Many probably go to whatever plane of existence best suits them.
    The disgruntled spirits are no wisps, usually, these are Highborn ghosts that for some reason did not leave the ruins they lived in before. I don't think Elune made them stay... that would be pretty weird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    [COLOR="#417394"]A lot would probably have been cast off to other afterlives. While all Nelves have some sort of connection to nature they aren't all dedicated wood-warriors full time. Many probably go to whatever plane of existence best suits them.
    I would agree, but keep in mind that spirits can still change their covenant if they want to (for example some leave Revendreth for Maldraxxus)

  19. #679
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    I do hope my night elf and alliance fans friends are appreciating all the love, bias and focus Blizzard and the devs are giving to then lately.

    I mean, they complained for years that they complaint about the bias and focus of the horde got, they must be rly happy when they are getting the same treatment the horde got so far, it must feel rly good when you are the focus of the story right? get development and cinematic all to yourself

  20. #680
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    I would not say that this is entirely true, Tyrande does not toss away revenge entirely. This entire conversation about revenge vs renewal has been going on since 8.2.5 in Boralus.
    Shandris thinks renewal is more important than revenge... but she also says that this does not mean that they forget about it
    Maiev is all for revenge as expected...
    In truth, according to the latest novel, Maiev wants less revenge than Tyrande. So it's not like he wants to start a war either.

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