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  1. #701
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Untrue. Mueh'zala clearly states "Me want Rastakhan and ALL DE OTHER ZANDALARI"

    So Bwonsamdi saved all of them from the Maw. At considerable cost to himself. Which is also why the Jailer wants him killed. He seems to have been much more aware of the happenings over there then many others and he also seems to be able to travel between the realms, something neither the WQ nor Elune have demonstrated (Elune spoke through Tyrande, that was her only way)
    If saving those souls was such a burden, why did he spend his time throughout BFA laughing at us for dying instead of seeking any sort of help in fixing the Maw situation? He literally could have told Rastakhan or Talanji about how much damage the war was doing to the afterlife, but he stayed silent. He also attempts to contractually compel the Horde character to kill a million people, and given that he was still working for Mueh'zala at that time (he continues to refer to "the boss" throughout the max level BfA quests), that's just providing more fuel to the Jailer and his forces. That seems far worse than inadvertently sending souls to the Maw when trying to deliver them to Ardenweald instead.

  2. #702
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Elune can't skip Oribos due to the logistical way the afterlife works.
    Can't she?
    I guess it would make a great example of show, don't tell. I don't get how she can tamper with the sorting process though, assumed Elune could just send them to Ardenweald, but for the burned to end up in the Maw then Oribos has to be a stop in the journey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    YMMV as to whether she made the right decision, but I'd say it was pretty far from a farcical one. It would be a decision that would give most people considerable pause.
    She already chose.
    Tyrande chose vengeance and got her powers removed in her moment of extreme retribution, but Elune - and not herself - had other plans.
    So in the end Tyrande's choice and ultimate quest for vengeance doesn't matter at all. The line about saving her people is meaningless, it's already being done by the Maw Walker tasked by Ysera herself to do constantly from whatever structure it is north. Perdition Hold? I can't remember.

    Tyrande wanted to end her life and take Sylvanas' existance with her. Elune wanted to talk with the Winter Queen and needed her as an avatar to do so, but fancies the idea of Tyrande being alive.
    That's the final takeaway of all the things that happened start to finish with the Night Warrior: a glorified Skype call.

  3. #703
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Untrue. Mueh'zala clearly states "Me want Rastakhan and ALL DE OTHER ZANDALARI"

    So Bwonsamdi saved all of them from the Maw. At considerable cost to himself. Which is also why the Jailer wants him killed. He seems to have been much more aware of the happenings over there then many others and he also seems to be able to travel between the realms, something neither the WQ nor Elune have demonstrated (Elune spoke through Tyrande, that was her only way)
    To be fair Bwonsamdi literally worked under one of Jailer's double agents, while the Eternal ones had no idea what's up either. Also he doesn't need to know all of the details to know that his boss is up to no good.

  4. #704
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Goat View Post
    I really hope the writer's that get paid to come up with this shit are paid like, $12-18/hr. Because paying someone, or some people, any more than that for this level of garbage would be a tragedy, as well.

    Wow.
    Even paying them sweatshop wages would be too much.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  5. #705
    BFA & Shadowlands story has completely jumped the shark. Idk why there's even a lore sub at this point lol.

    It's honestly night and day. Legion and earlier was a fun pulp adventure story. Then Metzen left and Danuser & Golden took over. Ever since it's been goblets of nonsensical tripe and some of the worst dialogue ever known to man.

    One of the most puzzling habits of this new team is their penchant for "plans within plans" (Sylvanas, the Dreadlords, now Elune) that they seem to think is brilliant storytelling when in reality it makes the characters look like idiots and makes it clear that the writers have no clue where their own story is going and don't bother to plan in advance.
    Last edited by kansor; 2021-08-01 at 07:31 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    She lost against Arthas for purpose. She wanted to feed Quel'thalas to hungering darkness.

  6. #706
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    She didn't need to act on a mass scale for Teldrassil to fuck with her own lore. Because she already did act on an individual scale in the past. All she had to do was to put the same shield she put on Tyrande in the past on Malfurion and there'd be fuck all the Horde could had done at that point. The new bits of trivia about how Elune works on a cosmic scale yet Night Elves are her favorite toys out of all creation make that even more questionable.

    And even the part where Tyrande was her favorite and she did not like Malfurion does not fly because she did interfere to save Malfurion in that battle anyway. It's just she saved him from the killing blow. And it's not just the quote about Saurfang's perspective that was already floating around this thread earlier. Sylvanas made an internal remark about Elune's intervention upon learning of Malfurion's survival as well (and that she outright expected her intervention at some point, just a later one). And given how it was later revealed she had inside scoops on cosmic dealings via Jailer, there's an extra weight to her observation on this.
    Elune intervened for Tyrande because Tyrande has the IQ of a potted plant and was about to get stabbed for trusting Vashj. Then she obliged and lowered the shield again. Elune did bugger all to meaningfully help the night elf cause in all of the War of the Ancients, War of the Shifting Sand etc. where the baddies were such that if the allied forces lost everyone everywhere would keel over. Her grand contribution to a situation where the stakes are one city being fed-exing the souls somewhere and forgetting about it are in line with her previous behaviour on that front.

    Regarding the Malfurion situation is it actually confirmed that Elune physically stopped Sadfang? From the description I figured that was metaphorical and it was the weight of his angst keeping him from doing his job with Sylvanas as ever giving him too much credit. Tyrande certainly interprets Sadfang as being the one to spare Malfurion rather than attributing it to divine intervention which is why she doesn't kill him on the spot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Can't she?
    I guess it would make a great example of show, don't tell. I don't get how she can tamper with the sorting process though, assumed Elune could just send them to Ardenweald, but for the burned to end up in the Maw then Oribos has to be a stop in the journey.
    It's told in oblique exposition in overly technical bs just like virtually everything in this expansion, but yes. While hijacking souls to put elsewhere isn't too difficult, see Odyn, Helya or Bwon who all either keep the souls they take in a pocket realm or in a physical location like the Necropolis, if the souls do go to the Shadowlands then they pass by Oribos since the gates need to be opened for someone to pass through and not just end up chow in the In-Between.

    Is this particularly compelling? No, the night elf goddess's first appearance being being fucked over by a logistical filing error just shows you how out of touch the writers are with the actual emotional and story stakes.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  7. #707
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Is this particularly compelling? No, the night elf goddess's first appearance being being fucked over by a logistical filing error just shows you how out of touch the writers are with the actual emotional and story stakes.
    The moment deities are involved in the power levels, things go legs up. In D&D 3e there was this manual that was basically a salad of statblocks pertaining to Gods and this stat called divine rank. The thing made gods fightable and inevitably impoverished the mistique about what a God was.

    Shadowlands already irreparably damaged the concept of death and afterlife, and Elune is a dreadful foreshadowing of what might be to come, already getting comparisons with the Winter Queen in terms of cosmic relevance and - alas - power.

    And I can't help but find comparisons with that manual.

  8. #708
    Quote Originally Posted by Clone View Post
    You are as dumb as you think you are smart if you couldn't figure what what I was getting at.
    below your original post
    Quote Originally Posted by Clone View Post
    How do living breathing night elves become wisps?
    they do not. And people in teldrassil ( and other night elf territories) died at mass. You acting or thinking they are alive does not make them alive.

  9. #709
    Goddamn, I really need to stop bothering coming here. We finally got Elune talking and saved Tyrande's life, in what may be the most important moment in their lore's history and people are still complaining about it relentlessly.

    Do we even do any lore discussion anymore or is it absolutely, 100% complaining?

    Some of the stuff I wanted to actually DISCUSS:

    I admit I saw this ending differently, with Tyrande either dying or forsaking Elune entirely, and never suspected we'd see Elune in "person" addressing her own failings like this. I want to be disappointed due to not getting what I expected, but seeing Elune be vulnerable and address her mistakes to the night elves she failed was what Tyrande needed to come back from the brink of her self-destruction. And the night elves themselves. I think to Shadows Rising and Tyrande looking into the eyes of the night elven warden they captured that Sylvanas had sicked on her, looking into the eyes of a soul consumed by hatred.

    The story gave not what I expected or wanted, and yet I'm happy with it, all while still interested in how the expansion as a whole ends. For an expansion that felt a bit more distanced from our "core story" than BFA with all these alien realms and covenants, 9.1 has done a good job from what I've seen so far in bringing the character moments with familiar faces needed to be invested in the story as part of the whole.
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Sylvanas will just give her own head to Tyrande.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  10. #710
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Some of the stuff I wanted to actually DISCUSS:

    I admit I saw this ending differently, with Tyrande either dying or forsaking Elune entirely, and never suspected we'd see Elune in "person" addressing her own failings like this. I want to be disappointed due to not getting what I expected, but seeing Elune be vulnerable and address her mistakes to the night elves she failed was what Tyrande needed to come back from the brink of her self-destruction. And the night elves themselves. I think to Shadows Rising and Tyrande looking into the eyes of the night elven warden they captured that Sylvanas had sicked on her, looking into the eyes of a soul consumed by hatred.

    The story gave not what I expected or wanted, and yet I'm happy with it, all while still interested in how the expansion as a whole ends. For an expansion that felt a bit more distanced from our "core story" than BFA with all these alien realms and covenants, 9.1 has done a good job from what I've seen so far in bringing the character moments with familiar faces needed to be invested in the story as part of the whole.
    Alright, let's bite.

    How do we classify the incompetence of Elune in checking with - apparently - her sister?
    Why does Tyrande have to come back from the brink of self destruction if she already chose to go over that same limit to have her vengeance? A vengeance that gets denied by the same entity that allowed those powers to be wielded in the first place, let's not forget.
    Is Sira Moonwarden right in that Elune forsook her children at the Darkshore and beyond so that she could - again - help her sister?
    Has Shadowlands done a good enough job in preserving the mistique of death and dying?

  11. #711
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Alright, let's bite.

    How do we classify the incompetence of Elune in checking with - apparently - her sister?
    What do you mean?

    Why does Tyrande have to come back from the brink of self destruction if she already chose to go over that same limit to have her vengeance? A vengeance that gets denied by the same entity that allowed those powers to be wielded in the first place, let's not forget.
    It might help to understand if you have followed the Ardenweald quest chain as well as completing the Power of Night part of the 9.1 content. When someone invokes the Night Warrior the destructive power also somewhat warps their outlook, at least one former Night Warrior had to be taken out by a friend so their destructive tendencies wouldn't become a bigger threat than what initially caused them to ask for the power. What we see in the Power of Night quests is former Night Warriors being gathered not just to take out Tyrande before she becomes a threat but to somehow cleanse the destructive energies and save her.

    When Tyrande asked Elune for greater power to take out Sylvanas she wasn't acting rationally as she was under the Night Warrior's power. After the ritual she manages to retain the power of Elune but is no longer possessed by those destructive tendencies and, now that she knows the Winter Queen has some sort of plan for saving the lost Night Elf souls, is capable of making a rational choice how to proceed with that power.

    Is Sira Moonwarden right in that Elune forsook her children at the Darkshore and beyond so that she could - again - help her sister?
    I don't think so, it isn't the first time she has "allowed" mass death and destruction to affect her children, most notably during the War of the Ancients/Sundering, the Battle of Hyjal and the Cataclysm.

    Has Shadowlands done a good enough job in preserving the mistique of death and dying?
    Not sure if there was that much to preserve, with all the undead hanging around death has always seemed more like a revolving door than some great mystery. At least there is still unknowns and uncertainty about what afterlife someone will get sent to once they're dead.

  12. #712
    Dreadlord Smallfruitbat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    What do you mean?



    It might help to understand if you have followed the Ardenweald quest chain as well as completing the Power of Night part of the 9.1 content. When someone invokes the Night Warrior the destructive power also somewhat warps their outlook, at least one former Night Warrior had to be taken out by a friend so their destructive tendencies wouldn't become a bigger threat than what initially caused them to ask for the power. What we see in the Power of Night quests is former Night Warriors being gathered not just to take out Tyrande before she becomes a threat but to somehow cleanse the destructive energies and save her.

    When Tyrande asked Elune for greater power to take out Sylvanas she wasn't acting rationally as she was under the Night Warrior's power. After the ritual she manages to retain the power of Elune but is no longer possessed by those destructive tendencies and, now that she knows the Winter Queen has some sort of plan for saving the lost Night Elf souls, is capable of making a rational choice how to proceed with that power.
    The whole incident strips Tyrande of any agency.

    In the wake of Teldrassil and fully aware of the consequences, Tyrande invokes the Night warrior. She has made her decision; probably not the best decision of her life but she's a hot-head and it fits with her character. She decides that she is happy to forfeit her life to get rid of Sylvanas. Again, not very practical but this is the same Tyrande who killed a bunch of her own people to break Illidan out. Yes, the rage may be amplified and warped but its pretty much inline with a reasonable reaction to having your people brutally massacred.

    So what does Elune do? She pulls the plug so we can sit around and draw off the bad mojo. That way, we can have Tyrande let go of the rage, shrug her shoulders at the genocide and get stuck into #rebuilding.

    This is up there with the whole making excuses for Sylvanas. 'She did it cause she only had half a soul.' Neither are satisfying conclusions because you've gone against what we know of the characters. I was OK with Sylvanas burning down Teldrassil because 'fuck the living', and I'm OK with Tyrande going crazy and sacrificing herself to take out Sylvie, because she likes to jump in with both feet. And Elune, the Goddess who doesn't like to intervene puts a stick in the wheel and says 'Nah Tyrande you can't be allowed to think for yourself.'
    Last edited by Smallfruitbat; 2021-08-03 at 08:38 AM.

  13. #713
    It's a real shame what happened to the Night Elves. They've been handled so terribly over the years, with practically every element of their culture and society attacked and weakened to account for ridiculous plot twists.

    It seems to be a problem across the board in fantasy settings in recent years where every non human race has their plot elements destroyed and/or eroded away so the focus can be on 'human potential' instead.

  14. #714
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Goddamn, I really need to stop bothering coming here. We finally got Elune talking and saved Tyrande's life, in what may be the most important moment in their lore's history and people are still complaining about it relentlessly.

    Do we even do any lore discussion anymore or is it absolutely, 100% complaining?

    Some of the stuff I wanted to actually DISCUSS:

    I admit I saw this ending differently, with Tyrande either dying or forsaking Elune entirely, and never suspected we'd see Elune in "person" addressing her own failings like this. I want to be disappointed due to not getting what I expected, but seeing Elune be vulnerable and address her mistakes to the night elves she failed was what Tyrande needed to come back from the brink of her self-destruction. And the night elves themselves. I think to Shadows Rising and Tyrande looking into the eyes of the night elven warden they captured that Sylvanas had sicked on her, looking into the eyes of a soul consumed by hatred.

    The story gave not what I expected or wanted, and yet I'm happy with it, all while still interested in how the expansion as a whole ends. For an expansion that felt a bit more distanced from our "core story" than BFA with all these alien realms and covenants, 9.1 has done a good job from what I've seen so far in bringing the character moments with familiar faces needed to be invested in the story as part of the whole.
    I think the cinematic sets up Elune in a smart way, and if I had to bet, id say:

    - shes fighting a cosmic war, with realms of life under attack on a cosmic level from multiple fronts (Death, Void etc etc). any of 'our problems' might be a huge deal to us obviously, but its just a small thing on Elunes plate.
    - shes losing said war / being stretched too thin / cant sustain her actions forever
    - shes depressed, lonely, vulnerable and even disheartened as a result of the above

    I think all the above make for ripe future story content. Who else is invading the Realms of Life? Does Elune need help? What happens to life itself if the goddess responsible for its role in the great cycle is depressed and losing hope? etc

  15. #715
    Dreadlord Smallfruitbat's Avatar
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    This is 'World of Warcraft' not 'Universe of Warcraft' every time they introduce another cosmic faction they water down the story they are already struggling to tell in game.

  16. #716
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    What do you mean?

    It might help to understand if you have followed the Ardenweald quest chain as well as completing the Power of Night part of the 9.1 content. When someone invokes the Night Warrior the destructive power also somewhat warps their outlook, at least one former Night Warrior had to be taken out by a friend so their destructive tendencies wouldn't become a bigger threat than what initially caused them to ask for the power. What we see in the Power of Night quests is former Night Warriors being gathered not just to take out Tyrande before she becomes a threat but to somehow cleanse the destructive energies and save her.

    When Tyrande asked Elune for greater power to take out Sylvanas she wasn't acting rationally as she was under the Night Warrior's power. After the ritual she manages to retain the power of Elune but is no longer possessed by those destructive tendencies and, now that she knows the Winter Queen has some sort of plan for saving the lost Night Elf souls, is capable of making a rational choice how to proceed with that power.

    I don't think so, it isn't the first time she has "allowed" mass death and destruction to affect her children, most notably during the War of the Ancients/Sundering, the Battle of Hyjal and the Cataclysm.

    Not sure if there was that much to preserve, with all the undead hanging around death has always seemed more like a revolving door than some great mystery. At least there is still unknowns and uncertainty about what afterlife someone will get sent to once they're dead.
    The entire incident between the Winter Queen and Elune happens because the communication between two entities of the same power happens unilaterally. Elune receives a call for help, decides to act and does not answer the message, thinking the cascade of souls would be eloquent enough.
    The Winter Queen, offended, holds a grudge against her sister.

    The pettiness of Elune - or whatever trait runs in the family - continues. All of the Night Warriors recipients we interact with get consumed one way or the other by its power: either by madness or because their lives get extinguished as they further their chosen purpose. Elune stripped Tyrande of her powers at the height of it, and as valid as her self destructive tendencies in that instance were, got superseded by Elune wanting a body to communicate with The Winter Queen.

    Tyrande then chooses purification invalidating all she did previously in her Night Warrior quest, she cannot choose vengeance.
    The part about the souls is perplexing. The Maw Walker is personally gathering Kaldorei souls from the Maw, tasked by Ysera herself, and freed a sizable number from Torghast as well. If there is a plan to vacuum them off super hell, it would make most of what the player did invalid. Which might not be surprising, but is still classified as questionable writing at its best.

    Sira's anguish. Now, as we know Elune tampered with the souls of her selected people, choosing to hold off in the instance of the burning of Teldrassil and rather set them to Ardenweald. Could Sira presumably know the souls of her peers got damned, her resurrection via the Val'kyrs coming with a moment of clarity given the ties with Sylvanas and the Jailer? It's quite possible that's the case. Would make it quite fun, a mortal understanding what's happening and Elune not being able to.

    The undead being around due to necromancy and death magic never took anything from death as a metaphysical concept. The vision/ spirit of Varian, of Uther, the lament of Frostmourne's prisoners and Terenas held significance due to their different stories. And now we find out they get sorted by the magical hexagonal hat in worlds where there's magical horses that die while dead.

    Pardon my sarcasm but what the hell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smallfruitbat View Post
    This is 'World of Warcraft' not 'Universe of Warcraft' every time they introduce another cosmic faction they water down the story they are already struggling to tell in game.
    Aptly said. There's an apparent issue with the scope of the narrative, as if going constantly above and beyond to increase spectacle could somehow do any good.

  17. #717
    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    How do people not understand this?

    She's didn't kill the Night Elves she just let thier souls pass into the Shadowlands....

    Not sure why people think Elune is omnipotent, omnipresent or omniscient....

    Apperetnly he can't instantly know what's happening in the Shadowlands.
    Because the anti lore crowd wants to rage about everything. Even if they completely and utterly mis understand the base concept of the cinematic.

    Elune did the whole soul thing after the burning, not before. Not during, after.. but these kids just want to rage about it without using facts.

  18. #718
    Quote Originally Posted by 8bithamster View Post
    Because the anti lore crowd wants to rage about everything. Even if they completely and utterly mis understand the base concept of the cinematic.

    Elune did the whole soul thing after the burning, not before. Not during, after.. but these kids just want to rage about it without using facts.
    I actually understood it as she let them die, so that their souls went to shadowlands. Instead of intervening and saving them. Anyway, what would be the "soul thing" you mentioned? Everyone who dies goes to shadowlands anyway, so there was nothing for Elune to do in that regard.

    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    How do people not understand this?

    She's didn't kill the Night Elves she just let thier souls pass into the Shadowlands....

    Not sure why people think Elune is omnipotent, omnipresent or omniscient....

    Apperetnly he can't instantly know what's happening in the Shadowlands.
    Where would their souls go then if Elune didn't "let them pass to SL"? Could she somehow stop / redirect those souls from going to SL? To where? If she has that kind of power then she is as close to omnipotent as we've seen in the game so far. Considering that to our knowledgenone of the powerful characters avoided Shadowlands
    Last edited by procne; 2021-08-03 at 10:26 AM.
    I have enough of EA ruining great franchises and studios, forcing DRM and Origin on their games, releasing incomplete games only to sell day-1 DLCs or spill dozens of DLCs, and then saying it, and microtransactions, is what players want, stopping players from giving EA games poor reviews, as well as deflecting complaints with cheap PR tricks.

    I'm not going to buy any game by EA as long as they continue those practices.

  19. #719
    Quote Originally Posted by procne View Post

    Where would their souls go then if Elune didn't "let them pass to SL"? Could she somehow stop / redirect those souls from going to SL? To where? If she has that kind of power then she is as close to omnipotent as we've seen in the game so far. Considering that to our knowledgenone of the powerful characters avoided Shadowlands
    Probably turn into wisps, then, due to their ties to the forest. Elune doesn't have any power or jurisdiction over the realm of death.

    You might say "oh, but Ysera" was before the system of Death was broken, the night elves were after, and she didn't know that. She can apparently send them in the right direction, but she does not have powers over the realm of death.

    While I don't think it's tied to the core campaign to put it on a clear timeline, this is where I'd put the quests where night fae members go to locate and rescue night elf souls from the Maw that eventually leads to the post-quest dialogue between one of them and Tyrande.

    Who, I looked it up, was the priestess who stayed behind on the tree and sang the prayer to Elune from the Elegy short story.
    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/st...rt-story/elegy
    Last edited by Powerogue; 2021-08-03 at 02:41 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Sylvanas will just give her own head to Tyrande.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  20. #720
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Probably turn into wisps, then, due to their ties to the forest
    Hmm I can't think of any right now, but are there any night elf souls in shadowlands then? Not speaking about the ones we saved from torghast, just ones who reached the shadowlands before the system of death was broken
    I have enough of EA ruining great franchises and studios, forcing DRM and Origin on their games, releasing incomplete games only to sell day-1 DLCs or spill dozens of DLCs, and then saying it, and microtransactions, is what players want, stopping players from giving EA games poor reviews, as well as deflecting complaints with cheap PR tricks.

    I'm not going to buy any game by EA as long as they continue those practices.

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