By Our Hand - Chains of Domination Cinematic

[Kralljin]

great examples, she helped few INDIVIDUALS, never more people...
why didnt she helpe defeat legion in war of ancients or at least protect nelfs there? she helped ONLY tyrande then...

Well, helping one person is more than helping zero.

And that doesn't change the fact that she's still a pretty useless deity, then.

[kappalol]

Make sense. Immagine you have ant collony. And "somehow" if you let most of your ant colony to be sacrificed it will save your own loved sister.

Everyone would do that. Night elves are just ants for Elune. Elune loves them but I highly doubt she loved them more than her sister.

[Lahis]

I'm sorry, is this a setup so they can eventually said "Sylvanas did everyone a favor burning the Tree so she isn't guilty of anything?"

Because it 100% looks like that and I am scared

Absolutely. They have now two excuses: Sylvanas didn't have her full soul and it was actually Elune's plan to kill all night elves to fuel Ardenweald.

Danuser's waifu is redeemed!

[Kralljin]

>Ardenweald needs Anima - As far as Elune knew, it was JUST Ardenweald. The Winter Queen asked for souls, she didn't explain the entire Shadowlands plight.

Semantics, as those souls would have likely all arrived at Ardenweald anyway.

>Elune is faced with a choice. Save the Night Elves who worship her, or provide Anima to the dying Ardenweald. (She did not realize choice 2 was actually a trap.)

In other words, Elune basically treats night elven lives as expendable, she doesn't give them or any of her worshippers any insight why she's doing it, she just keeps her mouth shut and expects them to continue worship her, despite them being thrown under the bus whenever she chooses to.
At the very least, you have to convince people that their sacrifice is important, not just let them die and then reveal to disgruntled followers "all according to plan".

That's the problem, i also recall some lines of dialogue that no nightelf received any answer *why* Elune chose not to intervene.
Sure, you could explain the plight to them.
Or give them powerups and take them away to ultimately deny them vengeance, which is why those followers actually wanted those powerups.

What brings Tyrande acceptance is the understanding of why Elune did not save the Night Elves. Tyrande didn't demand the power of Night Warrior just for vengeance - She demanded it because she felt it was "deserved" - That Elune did not save the Night Elves at Teldrassil, and thus, the power of the Night Warrior was her way of demanding retribution for said wrong.

That just goes hand in hand...doesn't it?

That's a lot of fluff for saying "If we get nothing out of worshipping you, we stop worshipping you".

As for whether it's the selfish part of "I can't lose my followers," or the caring part of "While I know this power will ultimately destroy you, to allow you to fall into despair thinking I willed for this after all the good you did in my name would be much worse" is up for debate

In the very post i mentioned an alternative where Elune could've saved *some* Night elves to showcase to her followers that she cares and that saving *all* of them was beyond her powers.
If she had like saved 10%-20% of the night elves that burned at Teldrassil, that would've been something, it would still be a tragedy, but also showcasing Elune's grace and powers.

But no, Ardenweald needs souls, so they get as many souls as possible.

Even her Sister realized that you sometimes have to do something that may threaten the overall scheme to keep your followers going, her using a part of essence to save Ysera cost her a lot (seemingly), but also gave faith to the a lot of Night fae.

[Soon-TM]

They didn't know what to do with Elune did they? Or how to move the story on post BFA. Shambles.

It's quite clear that writers had no idea about what to do with the burning of Teldrassil, other than a pretext to start their $&#@ty MoP 2.0

[Kralljin]

Not semantics. Had Elune known of the ENTIRE Shadowlands drought, she may have questioned why the souls wouldn't reach Ardenweald. The distinction was to explain why she wouldn't.

It is because Ardenweald is a part of the Afterlife, you basically making a fuss because i used the term "Afterlife" as a standin for Ardenweald.
Seriously, read the post again and replace Afterlife with Ardenweald and this entire argument remains the same.

If you're going to argue about semantics, go ahead, but i'm not going further honor with this any attention.

Note the "deemed necessary." This is important shortly.

Chosen people being subject to a genocide sounds like a case where one should deem it necessary.

And no, no argument you have presented below changes that.

Given how well that's gone over with you right now, with them explaining the plight to you right now, I have high doubts you'd have been ok with it then either.

It would've been at least better, saying even a deity has limits in terms of saving people is a whole different to "Whelp, can't save a single soul, but my sis needs some Anima".

But saying "It doesn't make sense cause she didn't explain it" isn't true at all.

I didn't say that doesn't make sense, i say it's pretty damn stupid on her part to throw the Night elves under the bus and expect that those people will not somehow react to them being forsaken.

This is called "instilling lessons."

I wouldn't give a vengeful person a gun, let them rage across the land, only to slap the gun out of their hand the moment they have the person they want to kill at their mercy.

Seriously, either you are on board with them taking their revenge and let them see it through until the object is achieved or you don't give them the power at all and teach them how to move on.

Yes, Elune could just smite Sylvanas and go on her merry way. But then what? Does that change that the Night Elves died? Does that change that if she didn't intervene to save Ardenweald, all of Azeroth and reality itself may have collapsed on itself? (Remember that "unless deemed necessary" part I mentioned before? Kind of necessary to save reality, no?)

By allowing Tyrande to take the power as requested, she gained Tyrande's ear again, which she had lost by the sacrifice of the Night Elves. She needed this because Tyrande would not heed her otherwise.

By stopping Tyrande from killing Sylvanas at the last moment, it opened the door to answering the question: "Why won't you let me kill her?"
And the answer is right there: Because vengeance wasn't the reason Elune granted her the power. It was to make amends between Elune and Tyrande - It always was. It was to gain Tyrande's trust again, open the door to the conversation, and then have her understand what occurred, so she could understand that vengeance wasn't the answer to begin with.

This so fucking stupid.

When you want to teach people that vengeance is not the way, then you need to start that right off the bat, then you need to stop them right off the bat, not let them indulge their emotions until a point of return is barely possible, then deny them their desire once again.

This is subjecting people to a very degenerate bait and switch move, not actually teaching them to move on, the sole reason why Tyrande seemingly accepts this is because the writers want to that way, not because it makes sense.

Without every step in between, we don't reach the same conclusion.

The fact that you are seriously defending means we will not reach the same conclusion.

Considering most deity-like beings do not, in fact, offer anything for your service beyond "you won't be killed," no, it really doesn't go hand in hand.

Wat.

"I worship you"
"I offer aid in return"

This is the basic belief of almost any religion, it's at the end of the day a basic transaction.
Night elves worshipped Elune, Elune said "Yeah, can't help you there", hence their belief in Elune must be rebuilt with something.

We don't even know why Elune cares so much specifically about Night Elves worshipping her

Who cares, Elune said they are her chosen people, *why* they have this status for this discussion irrelevant.

But was saving all of them beyond her powers? We don't know that, and this quest chain suggests otherwise, since it's now canon that she CHOSE not to intervene.

I think that would have been a more believeable reasoning than what we've been presented.
Heck, we even could've had something like that the moon going dark to highlight how much Elune had to give up to achieve that.

And then she's in a race against time, deciding which 20% of the Night Elf population is most important, picking each one out of the crowd, transporting them to safety, all the while each of her OTHER most important followers may or may not be currently melting in the fires...

Acting under pressure, even a bane among deities.

And that would also deny Anima to Ardenweald, when her sister just urgently requested Anima.

Yes, maybe it's also important Elune's chosen people do not lose faith in her.

Be real, the call for aid couldn't have been that specific that Elune must've known that nothing short of would entire population of Teldrassil would even remotely suffice to solve it.

What? This doesn't even make sense.

It does, the Winter queen knew that it would've been a damn shitty move to have yet another Wildseed die in front of her servants who have been taught to badly care about Wildseeds.
There is a reason why most Wildseeds didn't get what Ysera received, because it's too valueable in the grand scheme of things.
But sometimes you have to risk the long game in order win the short game and Elune just straight up said "I'll just let all Night elves die, i'll figure out the rest later".
Whereas the Winter queen realized that this time, she just can't let a Wildseed die without the Night Fae morale further tanking to a critical level.

Winter queen choose to save one to at great cost to restore some hope.
Elune choose not to a single soul, despite knowing that this will absolutely shatter the faith of a lot of night elves.

there's a family questioning Elune as to why they had to die and couldn't be saved.

Well, now those families won't ask any questions anymore because they're all dead.

Well played, Elune.

[Kauko]

You're mixing up "a mess" with "complex" here.

If we're talking about "low cognitive ability", I'd point to above.
It takes a serious lack of cognitive ability to be unable to parse how shit the story is and think it's "mysterious" or "complex" instead. Just like people unable to detect plot holes and idiotic behaviours because low-brow spectacle is enough to overload their processing power.

What is worse, expect a Game of Thrones type of story in a 17y old MMO where the story never got even close to Got and continuous crying over it... or accept it as it is and search something better somewhere else if you don't like it?

Its like expecting an epic story from a Mickey Mouse comic and then complaining why it is not on par with new X-Men...

[Kralljin]

and have those randos die anyway.

Because every_single_soul_was necessary to save reality, right?
Not even a single fucking soul was deemed worthy enough to be saved by Elune, not even kids, whose souls barely have had any Anima to them.

Fuck me, i'm even surprised that she didn't intervene when players rescued some people in Darnassus and hasn't gone "Nope, nope, someone needs those souls".

What is worse, expect a Game of Thrones type of story in a 17y old MMO where the story never got even close to Got and continuous crying over it... or accept it as it is and search something better somewhere else if you don't like it?

Because nothing a serious upgrade at this point.

If Blizzard would fuck around with newly created character, okay, whatever, but Shadowlands is pretty much putting the Warcraft Universe on its head, alongside very established characters.

[Cosmic Janitor]

It's also not in line with N'zoth's motive. Old Gods don't seek to destroy, they seek to corrupt. N'zoth would want to corrupt Teldrassil and its inhabitants. Torching it would render it completely useless.

Now the initial speculation was that Sylvanas was torching Teldrassil because N'zoth was beginning to corrupt it somehow. Same logic as Arthas burning down Startholm. That's interesting because that would give Sylvanas an opportunity for reckoning, realising she's walking the same path as Arthas did.

But Blizzard a better idea. Our fan theory sucked, apparently.

In general the fans have provided better and more thought out theories as to why the tree burned down or even burned in the first place, like there being an azerite storage or someone prepping it to burn. In hindsight Blizzard just wanted it gone and ignored pretty much any semblance of logic or consistency and willed it to happen by the sheer power of "the plot needs to happen". It's not like it would have been hard to make it happen in a decent way either, they just couldn't even be arsed to do it though.

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perhaps she wanted her to KNOW she can use that power to help her people rather than have vengeance before actualy making the choice?

Since the power was tearing her apart afterwards and she wouldn't have survived anyway, she would also never have gotten vengence.

[Soon-TM]

What is worse, expect a Game of Thrones type of story in a 17y old MMO where the story never got even close to Got and continuous crying over it... or accept it as it is and search something better somewhere else if you don't like it?

Its like expecting an epic story from a Mickey Mouse comic and then complaining why it is not on par with new X-Men...

Well, they have been (supposedly) hiring professional writers since at least WoD... and the story is still an utter mess. At least Mickey Mouse stories in comics make much, much more sense than BfA or SL so far.

[Kralljin]

Can you prove it wasn't?

Has there been any character that mentioned they were saved by Elune?
Has any character stated that Elune saved some souls?
I'd guess if Elune had saved any, she would let her High Priestess at least know, who clearly wanted to know what Elune did during those moments.

You can be upset for me using the word "semantics", but this isn't semantics, there is no reference or implication that any nightelf on Teldrassil was saved by Elune, it was stated that all she did was to ensure that their death will be painless, which naturally suggests that she didn't save anyone.

[Accendor]

This is solid. And Tyrande is going to choose revival, and this will all eventually lead us to the dragon isles expansion.

Oh, also wasn't disappointed with the comments. Pessimistic, negative, and hate-spewing as usual! Keep it classy folks, you're all that's wrong with the world.

I mean, its objectively bad and bullshit, so all the hate for it is justified

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What is worse, expect a Game of Thrones type of story in a 17y old MMO where the story never got even close to Got and continuous crying over it... or accept it as it is and search something better somewhere else if you don't like it?

Its like expecting an epic story from a Mickey Mouse comic and then complaining why it is not on par with new X-Men...

I mean WoW is very much pulling a GoT story here, but unfortunately its the last season.

[The Stormbringer]

Are they seriously trying to shift the fucking blame away from Sylvanas!?

This is exactly what they're doing. First she gets the "good" half of her soul back, and now we find out that she was allowed to horribly murder all those poor Night Elves, because Elune was HALPING! her sister by feeding her sweet, sweet souls to help the anima drought, but in reality she was condemning them all to an eternity of suffering and torment. Oh, and she was also visibly having second thoughts when talking to Anduin, and she attacked the Jailer. All of this? It definitely means they're going to redeem her. She will face zero justice for her crimes and get to live and be a popular character that appears regularly.

Thanks Blizzard, I hate it.

[Lolites]

so many people dont even listen to the video, dont give it single though, ignore half of history and story and jump to the stupidest conclusion and then complain about the story...
reading the comments i now firmly believe most people here never read anything more complicated than picturebook

[Kralljin]

Does this change what Elune believed when she was choosing whether or not to save the Night Elf souls?

No, but you asked me to prove it, i said that there is no NPC that references such an action on Elune's part, hence this is sufficient evidence that Elune did not undertake any action to save them.

No, no it doesn't, and she believed she WAS saving those souls (as they would be destroyed along with reality itself), and that it was necessary.

"I'm going to let you die now, so you won't die later".

And as morbid as it sounds, she didn't even deign to inform them about this.

So, it is in fact semantics.

I find it hilarious how much this word triggers you and don't even deny it, else you wouldn't continue using it.

But you know what, i'll just end this rather semantic discussion at this point, if you enjoy that kind terrible of writing, more power to you.

[BreakerOfWills]

We know from wisps that dead NE can stay on the mortal plane and work to help their people that way.

All that happened is that the souls that died in the battle didn't become wisps but were sent to ardenweald instead

Elune didn't kill her children in the tree.

Y'all need to take a second before you start howling

[Soon-TM]

We know from wisps that dead NE can stay on the mortal plane and work to help their people that way.

All that happened is that the souls that died in the battle didn't become wisps but were sent to ardenweald instead

Elune didn't kill her children in the tree.

Y'all need to take a second before you start howling

And somehow the WQ kINda FoRgOt to tell her divine sis that the Maw was eating each and every soul that entered the SL. It seems that that Archon gurl also kINda FoRgOt to inform her colleague about dem winged smurfs dropping souls into the Maw like npnp.

[Dug]

None of the other afterlife eternal big bosses can directly alter reality so it shouldn't be assumed that Elune can do anything either. It sounds dumb she wouldn't know the troubles in the shadowlands but she's clearly not a leader of a shadowlands realm. She's in an entirely different cosmic realm (life or whatever)

[Newname1234567890]

So Sylvanas is working for the Elune too? Really? Sigh.....

No. Elune just allowed the night elves to pass into the Shadowlands to help fuel Ardenweald. She did nothing evil she was just stupid

[Caerule]

I don't really get how people are misunderstanding things so much. Elune says "In the wake of tragedy", meaning "after tragedy happened". This doesn't imply she wanted this to happen, or that she was able to prevent it but chose not to.

All that's confirmed here, is that Elune sent the fallen from Teldrassil towards Ardenweald in its time of need. Much like she sent Ysera there before.
They didn't become wisps (as the new book confirms happens with Night Elves connected to their woodlands).
They didn't linger as vengeful spirits (as we often see in ruins).
They didn't linger in dreamforms in the Emerald Dream (As druids may do, as stated in book, and we see some dragons and such do after the Emerald Nightmare raid)
Put to rest and sent off to Ardenweald.

Yes, some may argue Elune is stupid for not knowing about the Maw thing. But, why would we expect a deity of the Life Realm to know about what's currently happening in the Death Realm? I see no reason why other pantheons would have special insight into the state of other realms. We've often seen the Titans get completely off guard of other Pantheons even existing.


As an added bonus, for me it's now clearer why Elune withdrew her power from Tyrande when she tried to trade her life for Sylvanas'. In the questline, Ysera says she's had visions of Tyrande being vital to Ardenweald's survival. If Elune's, whose power is linked to the same place Ysera draws her visions from, has seen the same, of course she had to withdraw her power from Tyrande to prevent her self-destructing with Sylvanas.