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  1. #421
    Reforged Gone Wrong The Stormbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nimin View Post
    Okay, acnowledged. Now get a move on, and stop crying about being a victim.
    Guess what: having a certain skincolor in no way proves that you, your parents, or your grandparents had it rougher than me, my parents, or my grandparents.

    Being "color blind" denies the victim card based on stuff that happened centuries ago to people who looked like them - hence why they hate it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormwolf64 View Post
    And how will that improve planet earth? People are so fucked in the head these days. Pitying and sympathizing for eternity, will that help anyone? Maybe they can get a whip and take a crack at slavery? will that make their lives any better? No of course it won't. Moving forward hand is what has to be done. Blaming and guilting is a fools endevour and will continue to breed hate in equal measure to the good it attempts to do.
    Ah yes, of course. So, we just ignore that current injustices that are happening day-to-day and "move on"? We allow racism and discrimination to remain untouched as we "move forward"? Yes, how foolish of me. Clearly this will fix all our problems and get rid of that hate you were talking about.

    And Nimin, do you really think it works that way? That you can just go, "Aww gee shucks, even though the system is designed to step on me and keep me down, all I have to do is just stop crying and everything will be alright!" Holy fuck, talk about naive. This isn't about individual circumstances, though those definitely have an effect that shouldn't be ignored, it's about how the law, and the economy, and rules, and perceptions are set against minorities, or set in favor of the majority, rather than being equal.

    Also, "centuries ago"? You do know that Jim Crow and the Civil Rights era were less than a hundred years ago, right? You do understand that the position your grandparents are in affects your parents, and that affects you, RIGHT?

    I'll give you an example. My grandparents are farmers, and have been their whole lives. If they had been black, chances are they would've struggled to purchase the land that they worked for decades, because the system has HISTORICALLY been heavily biased or outright hostile against black people. My entire family might not have been born, or would've been born in completely different circumstances, thus leading to ME not being born. If you can't understand how this shit can affect people on a generational scale, then I don't know what to tell you.

  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by Nimin View Post
    So long that "promoting" is merely giving them the chance, not the seat by default.
    "too many people that their dreams can't be met because mom and dad were wrong skin color" applies to everyone, white people included.
    Yes I know this too. I am white and had a very hard life, I wouldn't want people to assume I had it easy because I'm white. I also have the awareness that despite having it rough, it would have been made rougher if I was a black or Latino in my same situations.

  3. #423
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tooshie View Post
    Also a bit sad to see how the "opposition" (like how can there even be opposition in matters like these is beyond me) are just making straw men all the time how this is some big, leftist woke feminist coup when reality is, it's just people who have been treated like shit by men. Making this political is in very bad taste.
    Every time a non white male is hired for a qualified job is "discrimination" in the eyes of dem Trumpist whackos. Because obviously, the white dude was more qualified than anyone else.
    Last edited by Soon-TM; 2021-07-28 at 02:42 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    Yes, I got that part 100%. But how would being more diverse and woke prevent people from doing bad stuff, without sounding like "bad behavior" is only a white man problem?
    Being more diverse leads to those in the minority groups feeling more included, more psychological safe, more empowered. These are important factors for those minority groups to speak up about issues without fear of reprisal and in some cases, actual reprisal. Of course anyone from any group can do bad stuff, but it typically comes from the groups that feel like they can get away with it. The groups that feel like they can get away with it are typically the majority groups.

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by Sluvs View Post
    I mean, are you telling the that the white males in blizzard are ALWAYS more qualified? That would be one hell of a strange coincidence.
    They are not at all always more qualified, as their alleged victims are not at all always tell truth in their stories. I am sure that there was nepotism at Blizzard and a lot of people got mistreated over the years. But to blame ALL white men there as supremacists and sex predators and ALL women as innocent angels is total bullshit. But sadly this is the case as we speak.

  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    They're pretending that diversity always makes things better.
    There's mountains of evidence that diversity, and more importantly inclusion, factually creates a better work environment. Not just in terms of the employees feeling more included and safe but literally leads to an increase in productive work.

  7. #427
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrst View Post
    For you to decipher that bit, you'd need to realise that diversity isn't something that involves putting the 'white man' down, no matter how much FOX News tells you otherwise. Because diversity isn't about exclusion. It's the precise opposite. And true diversity doesn't involve 'let's just give Becky the job cos she a woman AND gay'. It involves, 'Becky's CV looks as good as Joe's. How about we interview both, and identify who the very best candidate is for the job without any preconceived preferences, biases or requirements to fulfil a HR mandate?' Equal opportunity is just that. EQUAL opportunity.
    If this was true then we wouldn't be constantly hearing attacks about how "Position of power X" has "too many white males", THIS VERY LAWSUIT INCLUDED.

    Don't fool yourself: this isn't about equality of opportunity but equality of outcome. They don't want what you describe, an equal fair chance for all.
    They want to SEE a 50:50 ratio shift of men and women only in positions of authority, merits and talent be damned.

    Diversity, in the way it's being put in practice today, is all about exclusion of the majority until a forced outcome of %, %, % of skin colors and sexes is achieved.
    Opportunity is the last thing they care about.

    In a situation where a company would do what you describe, hiring without prejudice, but the end result still came out to be a majority of men there, they would still complain, attack and try to destroy that company. They don't want opportunity, they want outcome.

  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by Tooshie View Post
    Also a bit sad to see how the "opposition" (like how can there even be opposition in matters like these is beyond me) are just making straw men all the time how this is some big, leftist woke feminist coup when reality is, it's just people who have been treated like shit by men. Making this political is in very bad taste.
    If you had spend a bit more time in this thread, you would've noticed the other side isn't any better at staying away from strawmen arguments.

  9. #429
    Ah yes, good old management and executives NOT EVEN ON THE SAME FUCKING PLANET OF DIMENSIONS WHEN THEY ANNOUNCE HARD-STANCES!!!

    Worst is Diablo 4 will likely be another poop game now...If that is so...then fuck...Blizzard is then just another company.

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by vincink View Post
    Correct. Because money speaks louder than words. And it appears some investors have lost enough confidence in Blizzard to take their money elsewhere. It works rather like a lane of fruit stands: if I buy fruit from Bob the Bastard and all of a sudden he starts spitting in my face, I will take my money to another fruit stand. And I will tell others about the disreputable Bob on the way. People speak with their feet. Money moves with feet.
    I'm aware of that. I'm just pointing out how greedy these piece of shit individuals are. In a week stock prices will be back where they were and Blizzard continues to push out shitty content that nobody enjoys and milking everything from everyone they can. Its crazy. Its even crazier that those people still have jobs. In addition to all that, they're now being sued by investors for fraud.

  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    Let me stop you right there. I'm not some american fox goon. I'm not on the right. I'm finnish and pretty left leaning. I'm not who you think I am. So I didn't read the rest of your post, which I assume was just more strawman.

    I am sick and tired of behavior exactly like this. People jumping on the gun when they hear just one bad thing (which actually even wasn't the thing they think it was). Try to think beoynd strawmen McFly.

    Fuck you.
    I mean, he still answered your question so maybe you should have read the rest of the post.

  12. #432
    Quote Originally Posted by TrollHunter3000 View Post
    There's mountains of evidence that diversity, and more importantly inclusion, factually creates a better work environment. Not just in terms of the employees feeling more included and safe but literally leads to an increase in productive work.
    Skill, expertise, working experience and positive human characteristics(ie cooperability, will to continously improve, will to impart knowledge and expertise upon others, a sense of responsibility) matter more than all elements of diversity combined. Having 9 female nurses that are all black, who have working experience and who are good with patients, is better than having 3 white, 3 black and 3 asian nurses, with half of them being inexperienced and the experienced half having bad behavioural patterns.

  13. #433
    The Patient vincink's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeJuice View Post
    I'm aware of that. I'm just pointing out how greedy these piece of shit individuals are. In a week stock prices will be back where they were and Blizzard continues to push out shitty content that nobody enjoys and milking everything from everyone they can. Its crazy. Its even crazier that those people still have jobs. In addition to all that, they're now being sued by investors for fraud.
    I tend to agree. There are disreputable companies that continue reap gold while hiding serious moral failings.

  14. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Yes I know this too. I am white and had a very hard life, I wouldn't want people to assume I had it easy because I'm white. I also have the awareness that despite having it rough, it would have been made rougher if I was a black or Latino in my same situations.
    And maybe this is the case. But is this sort of thinking, measuring suffering by millimeters and targeting our social empathy with laser precision, really how we make things better instead of just accepting that people suffer and trying to make things better for people in general with universalist language and action?

  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by TrollHunter3000 View Post
    I mean, he still answered your question so maybe you should have read the rest of the post.
    I would be more inclined to read it if the person didn't start with a strawman in the first damn sentence. This isn't the first time this has happened in this thread. It's pointless to engage a person like that.
    Last edited by zorkuus; 2021-07-28 at 02:49 PM.

  16. #436
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    What if the majority of people who are the best for a specific job are almost exclusively white males.
    Is there some logical reason why that would be the case? It's possible the applicants weren't a very diverse group or all of the top tier choices weren't very diverse but that indicates a problem with outreach efforts. Why are only white guys applying? That business would likely be missing out on some top tier talent if for some reason it's only white guys applying.

    Unless for some reason you think white males are just better?

  17. #437
    ok like i was w/e originally actually like i am basically on board with the criticisms
    but safe spaces? people dont need that, requiring diversity hire? hire whos best
    just make good games ignore all this poliitcal drama, more companies are going to move to texas which dosent have a state org filing woke lawsuits hindering business-california is gonna keep losing to texas, because the politicians are too ideological. maybe it is time for blizz to move out of cali

    people forget this drama started because california has a "Department of Fair Employment and Housing" sounds kind of orwellian, i doubt texas or oklohama has something like that
    Last edited by arandomuser; 2021-07-28 at 02:52 PM.

  18. #438
    Herald of the Titans Sluvs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    You have to take into account that those women and minorities could potentially and largely be using their status of "victimized category" to jumpstart themselves. Not all, but many are potentially doing exactly this. I've never, ever met a woman that has done the same work as I have and gotten paid less. In fact, they are usually getting priviledged treatment at the workplace, by getting a more suitable working environment, easier sick leaves with the head of department's approval and more.

    I'm not saying that a black guy or whatever can't be good at game development. What I'm saying is that gaming, stereotypically, is a white, dadbod dude's hobby from the last century and these people happened to be founding gaming companies all over the place when nobody cared about games except them. Eminem succeeded in hip hop, but that doesn't mean that black people aren't better at hip hop than white people.
    With the spreadsheets that leaked sometime ago, this is not speculation, this is a easily verifiable fact, women were paid less. The multiple accounts make it clear and obvious that Blizzard was a terrible place to work if you are a woman/minority. You are also claiming that many women and minorities are playing their "victim card" to get a jumpstart in their career, which is pure speculation on your part.

    You seem to believe that minorities and women were a small fraction of the general gamers. Which I'm not entirely sure is true, people of all races, all around the world played games at the same time that the ones you are defending did. Your perception that it's a white man's thing is a perception that I'm not so sure to be true.

    That being said, you are still defending, or at least arguing, for a company that was verifiably terrible to their female employees. You are still saying that they were promoting them fairly. That is a risky stance to take, to say the least
    I don't want solutions. I want to be mad. - PoorlyDrawnlines

  19. #439
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    Asmongold is more careful because he knows he can get in trouble and his Twitch stardom hangs in the balance because of it.
    I don't believe that. I believe he understands boundaries, and that's priceless. A friend of mine is a hardcore born-again Christian. He totally believes anyone who's not Christian will go to hell. BUT, he has gay friends, because he understands boundaries and he understands that he has to divorce certain elements of his religion from how he treats others. He also consequently respects boundaries, so he won't go telling a gay person they're going to burn in hell because his bible said so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    What if the majority of people who are the best for a specific job are almost exclusively white males.
    There's two aspects. Firstly, if a field is male dominated, it's beholden on both the education system and industry in question to understand why. Are non-white males/females or white females not interested? Or is it something more? Is there a systemic lack of opportunity from a foundational level? What is it? These things all require investigation and understanding of the societal constructs behind it. Mythic Quest had a great episode recently where David was trying to find a female employee to inspire a class of girls who had come to visit the MQ offices. That might give you insight into such a question. No one is saying don't recruit a white male if he's the best guy for the job. What people are saying is cast the net as wide as you can to ensure the opportunity is available for ANYONE - regardless of colour, religion, sex, orientation - to apply for the job.

    Secondly, once that net is cast wide, recruiters should have the mindset of putting the time in. Don't go for the 'easy' or 'convenient' option, because that in itself stymies progress. I'll give you a basic example. I went for a job, three times in 2 years. Interviewed, smashed the interviews as per the feedback given by the interviewers. But I never got the job. Why? Because the recruiters wanted to go for 'graduates' amongst the pool, even though I was technically more qualified than them. Why? Because the company had invested tens of thousands training these graduates and didn't want to look like their investment was all to waste. Whether it was or wasn't is irrelevant. And on top of that, 'graduates' are seen as the easier hire, because their paper they received from University makes it seem so. Even though I was the best man for the job as per the feedback given, they found a way around it by saying 'oh that graduate has done this obscure thing the job doesn't require, and you haven't, so nyaah'. I eventually got headhunted for a better job in the team anyway, and whilst doing this job, I'm constantly asked by the managers of those other recruits whether I can help their them because the people they recruited aren't upto snuff.

    Why did that happen? Because the recruiters didn't put the time in. They went based on what was on paper, and said 'whatever, we'll deal with it later'. Same thing happens when it comes to diversity. Recruiters often play it safe and think 'this person is just like the rest I have, so let's just keep it safe', without realising that there's better out there. They settle, they go for something that requires little thought. Which is how work cultures stagnate. Because diversity can also be diversity of thought. Diversity of working styles. Diversity of social attitudes. All of it. It all prevents an echo chamber of sameness to be built. And people rebel against that loss of 'sameness' because sameness breeds...comfort. And it's why the some recruiters do what they do, it's why some people don't want to embrace progress and so on. Because comfort is a priority. It wouldn't be a bad thing if people weren't consequently losing out. So yup. It's not as cut and dry as people make it out to be. Life would be grand if it was simple. But it's not. For better or worse.

    The old libertarian cliche of 'pull yourself up by your bootstraps and create opportunity for yourself' fails in situations where there's no gap in a market to actually create opportunities. In gaming, companies can go under regularly because there's just an inability to break a market etc etc, so there's layers and layers and layers of complication that prevents OPPORTUNITY. All because comfort is far easier than challenging the status quo. So yeah, it's more than just 'what if XYZ'. There's lots more to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivarr View Post
    Then true diversity doesn't involve gender and diversity targets or quotas either as these targets and quotas necessarily create inequality of opportunity.
    You're right. It's not true diversity. It's HR mandated diversity. It's bullshit.
    Last edited by DingDongKing; 2021-07-28 at 02:52 PM.

  20. #440
    Robert "Bobby" Kotick is an American businessman who has a net worth of $600 million. Kotick is famous for being the CEO of Activision Blizzard. He first became CEO of Activision in 1991 and later orchestrated the company's merger with Blizzard in 2008.

    Bobby Kotick's Salary: $30 Million

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