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  1. #441
    High Overlord vincink's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeJuice View Post
    over a decade to make changes but only when stock prices start to dip do they take action.
    Correct. Because money speaks louder than words. And it appears some investors have lost enough confidence in Blizzard to take their money elsewhere. It works rather like a lane of fruit stands: if I buy fruit from Bob the Bastard and all of a sudden he starts spitting in my face, I will take my money to another fruit stand. And I will tell others about the disreputable Bob on the way. People speak with their feet. Money moves with feet.

  2. #442
    Pit Lord Sluvs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    I personally am not surprised that a white dude in his fourties and fifties, who has spent his entire life playing tabletop games, MMOs and videogames in general, gets promoted over Becky that was hired to fill a mandated hiring quota. This pertains to the game development department first and foremost.
    You mistakenly believe that just because someone was is of a differente gender/ethinicity that their skills would not be up to par. Which is not necessarily true. You are arguing that a company, tha verifiably pays less to women and minorities, that housed multiple sexual predators, that by multiple accounts, made it hell for women to work there, that this company, was promoting people fairly.

    I think that is an extremely hard case to make.
    I don't want solutions. I want to be mad. - PoorlyDrawnlines

  3. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrst View Post
    Asmongold actually hit the nail on the head in a video the other day. He mentioned how he's automatically more reserved and careful around woman when he speaks, because he understands the value of boundaries and differences in what people are comfortable with and not comfortable with.
    Asmongold is more careful because he knows he can get in trouble and his Twitch stardom hangs in the balance because of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrst
    Best person for the job, yes.
    What if the majority of people who are the best for a specific job are almost exclusively white males.

  4. #444
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrst View Post
    And true diversity doesn't involve 'let's just give Becky the job cos she a woman AND gay'. It involves, 'Becky's CV looks as good as Joe's. How about we interview both, and identify who the very best candidate is for the job without any preconceived preferences, biases or requirements to fulfil a HR mandate?'
    Then true diversity doesn't involve gender and diversity targets or quotas either as these targets and quotas necessarily create inequality of opportunity.

  5. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    We can and should be promoting minorities and underprivileged people into higher positions. Because it's historically rarely ever been a thing and that is entirely from discrimination. Even the minorities of today that are highly regarded like.. Neil Degrassi Tyson? Faced a fuckton of opposition and racism, in his OWN words. Nobody ever heard of a black scientist omg!

    The shift into this didn't just happen overnight on the internet. Something's got to get done because it's getting to be bullshit for too many people that their dreams can't be met because mom and dad were wrong skin color.
    So long that "promoting" is merely giving them the chance, not the seat by default.
    "too many people that their dreams can't be met because mom and dad were wrong skin color" applies to everyone, white people included.

  6. #446
    I wish that the people at fault could be in trouble for the social crimes of being gross, ungentlemanly, and generally vicious rather than under the banner of cultural leftism that only cares about making social rules and enforcing virtue for white guys and not for anyone else.

  7. #447
    Quote Originally Posted by Sluvs View Post
    You mistakenly believe that just because someone was is of a differente gender/ethinicity that their skills would not be up to par. Which is not necessarily true. You are arguing that a company, tha verifiably pays less to women and minorities, that housed multiple sexual predators, that by multiple accounts, made it hell for women to work there, that this company, was promoting people fairly.

    I think that is an extremely hard case to make.
    You have to take into account that those women and minorities could potentially and largely be using their status of "victimized category" to jumpstart themselves. Not all, but many are potentially doing exactly this. I don't think that some employees having to listen to dick jokes or someone bringing a sex toy to a trip means there's a systematic problem with opportunity at Blizzard.

    I've never, ever met a woman that has done the same work as I have and gotten paid less. In fact, they are usually getting priviledged treatment at the workplace, by getting a more suitable working environment, time off with the kids and easier sick leaves with the head of department's approval and more.

    I'm not saying that a black guy or whatever can't be good at game development. What I'm saying is that gaming, stereotypically, is a white, dadbod dude's hobby from the last century and these people happened to be founding gaming companies all over the place when nobody cared about games except them. Eminem succeeded in hip hop, but that doesn't mean that black people aren't largely better at hip hop than white people. It's a cultural thing, it impacts exposure to certain hobbies and trends from early on in life and as a result has a lot of impact on the person's future interests and skillsets.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2021-07-28 at 02:42 PM.

  8. #448
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivarr View Post
    What measures would you use to impose this norm?
    Promote empathy and sympathy. The same foundations that have led to things like medical care, mental health care. Common act of goodness is also a sign of it. We have plenty of people doing charity work. Helping people less fortunate than others etc etc.

    When it comes to this I just think, no reason to be a dick, listen to anyones problem. Its better for someone to talk about doing bad shit to someone who listens and can help than let it fester... But if people are shunned or attacked for it, well... Big chance they will be quiet instead.

    When it comes to mental health being able to talk about the problems is imperitive to get better.

  9. #449
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrst View Post
    It's almost like you have little to no idea what people actually want. Because you look at what a select few people do when it comes to campaigning for rights, and then use that as a sweeping generalisation. I believe in equal rights and progressive rights for all. What does that mean? It doesn't mean going to a white person and saying, 'YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE PLIGHT OF MINORITIES!' Fuck no. It involves something very simple, ensuring everyone has EQUAL opportunity. That doesn't mean handing out jobs or money or status just based on colour. It means providing opportunity without discrimination. And that's the important bit. MANY companies fail in this regard, because they think, 'Christ, I don't want to put in the effort of actually providing equal opportunity, so I'll just skip that and make token appointments'. That breeds resentment. Amongst everyone.

    Fostering a progressive society requires effort. It's why some of those who are comfortable see it as a waste of time, because why bother when their glass is already full? Then you have others who are afraid they'll lose out, so they would rather have it like it was in the 'old days'. And so on. It comes to the core question of, 'what's in it for me?' And for many people, if there's nothing in it for them or a sense of perceived loss, you can be damn well sure they won't work towards what is better for everyone. Which is why there's such a schism in society. Everyone wants to look out for number one, which would be fine if there wasn't such a huge disparity in the opportunity to be able to look out for number one.

    No one's asking for things on a plate. They don't want you to feel sorry for them. They don't want you to sympathise with them. They don't want anything magical. Just. A. Chance. To be able to use their skills or to be able acquire skills to fulfil their hopes, dreams and aspirations. But for those people who've never had it that hard, that just sounds like an alien concept. When it shouldn't be. Because struggles are relative. And it doesn't take a genius to know that when someone has it bad, empathy goes a long way. Regardless of colour, religion, gender, sexual orientation. Empathy is understanding that everyone wants to go somewhere in life, and knowingly or unknowingly putting a roadblock is dumb AF.



    I literally could not give less of a fuck what you think. Because you clearly don't understand what life is actually about. So carry on.
    While I agree completely with you, there's a problem with people on those movements that say they want equality, but in the end they just want retaliation For example some messages in the like of "my ancestry was oppresed, I want a compensation". Man, what you want from me? I'm not responsible that some rich white dudes 200 years ago bough black slaves.

    The same thing goes by some people putting equality of opportunity on par with equality of results. That's why quotas are bad, you're putting someone ahead of others for some random trait, and that could create the opposite intent: it could drive people to think that the one ahead is there because of the trait instead of their worth.

  10. #450
    Reforged Gone Wrong The Stormbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nimin View Post
    Okay, acnowledged. Now get a move on, and stop crying about being a victim.
    Guess what: having a certain skincolor in no way proves that you, your parents, or your grandparents had it rougher than me, my parents, or my grandparents.

    Being "color blind" denies the victim card based on stuff that happened centuries ago to people who looked like them - hence why they hate it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormwolf64 View Post
    And how will that improve planet earth? People are so fucked in the head these days. Pitying and sympathizing for eternity, will that help anyone? Maybe they can get a whip and take a crack at slavery? will that make their lives any better? No of course it won't. Moving forward hand is what has to be done. Blaming and guilting is a fools endevour and will continue to breed hate in equal measure to the good it attempts to do.
    Ah yes, of course. So, we just ignore that current injustices that are happening day-to-day and "move on"? We allow racism and discrimination to remain untouched as we "move forward"? Yes, how foolish of me. Clearly this will fix all our problems and get rid of that hate you were talking about.

    And Nimin, do you really think it works that way? That you can just go, "Aww gee shucks, even though the system is designed to step on me and keep me down, all I have to do is just stop crying and everything will be alright!" Holy fuck, talk about naive. This isn't about individual circumstances, though those definitely have an effect that shouldn't be ignored, it's about how the law, and the economy, and rules, and perceptions are set against minorities, or set in favor of the majority, rather than being equal.

    Also, "centuries ago"? You do know that Jim Crow and the Civil Rights era were less than a hundred years ago, right? You do understand that the position your grandparents are in affects your parents, and that affects you, RIGHT?

    I'll give you an example. My grandparents are farmers, and have been their whole lives. If they had been black, chances are they would've struggled to purchase the land that they worked for decades, because the system has HISTORICALLY been heavily biased or outright hostile against black people. My entire family might not have been born, or would've been born in completely different circumstances, thus leading to ME not being born. If you can't understand how this shit can affect people on a generational scale, then I don't know what to tell you.

  11. #451
    Old God Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nimin View Post
    So long that "promoting" is merely giving them the chance, not the seat by default.
    "too many people that their dreams can't be met because mom and dad were wrong skin color" applies to everyone, white people included.
    Yes I know this too. I am white and had a very hard life, I wouldn't want people to assume I had it easy because I'm white. I also have the awareness that despite having it rough, it would have been made rougher if I was a black or Latino in my same situations.

  12. #452
    Over 9000! Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tooshie View Post
    Also a bit sad to see how the "opposition" (like how can there even be opposition in matters like these is beyond me) are just making straw men all the time how this is some big, leftist woke feminist coup when reality is, it's just people who have been treated like shit by men. Making this political is in very bad taste.
    Every time a non white male is hired for a qualified job is "discrimination" in the eyes of dem Trumpist whackos. Because obviously, the white dude was more qualified than anyone else.
    Last edited by Soon-TM; 2021-07-28 at 02:42 PM.
    If the Janitor managed to pwn Azeroth:

    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    "Die, wold soul of *incomprehensible mumbling* with your death my plan to *incomoprehensible mumbling* finally fullfilled and *incomprehensible mumbling*!"

  13. #453
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    Yes, I got that part 100%. But how would being more diverse and woke prevent people from doing bad stuff, without sounding like "bad behavior" is only a white man problem?
    Being more diverse leads to those in the minority groups feeling more included, more psychological safe, more empowered. These are important factors for those minority groups to speak up about issues without fear of reprisal and in some cases, actual reprisal. Of course anyone from any group can do bad stuff, but it typically comes from the groups that feel like they can get away with it. The groups that feel like they can get away with it are typically the majority groups.

  14. #454
    Stood in the Fire Muxtar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluvs View Post
    I mean, are you telling the that the white males in blizzard are ALWAYS more qualified? That would be one hell of a strange coincidence.
    They are not at all always more qualified, as their alleged victims are not at all always tell truth in their stories. I am sure that there was nepotism at Blizzard and a lot of people got mistreated over the years. But to blame ALL white men there as supremacists and sex predators and ALL women as innocent angels is total bullshit. But sadly this is the case as we speak.

  15. #455
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    They're pretending that diversity always makes things better.
    There's mountains of evidence that diversity, and more importantly inclusion, factually creates a better work environment. Not just in terms of the employees feeling more included and safe but literally leads to an increase in productive work.

  16. #456
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrst View Post
    For you to decipher that bit, you'd need to realise that diversity isn't something that involves putting the 'white man' down, no matter how much FOX News tells you otherwise. Because diversity isn't about exclusion. It's the precise opposite. And true diversity doesn't involve 'let's just give Becky the job cos she a woman AND gay'. It involves, 'Becky's CV looks as good as Joe's. How about we interview both, and identify who the very best candidate is for the job without any preconceived preferences, biases or requirements to fulfil a HR mandate?' Equal opportunity is just that. EQUAL opportunity.
    If this was true then we wouldn't be constantly hearing attacks about how "Position of power X" has "too many white males", THIS VERY LAWSUIT INCLUDED.

    Don't fool yourself: this isn't about equality of opportunity but equality of outcome. They don't want what you describe, an equal fair chance for all.
    They want to SEE a 50:50 ratio shift of men and women only in positions of authority, merits and talent be damned.

    Diversity, in the way it's being put in practice today, is all about exclusion of the majority until a forced outcome of %, %, % of skin colors and sexes is achieved.
    Opportunity is the last thing they care about.

    In a situation where a company would do what you describe, hiring without prejudice, but the end result still came out to be a majority of men there, they would still complain, attack and try to destroy that company. They don't want opportunity, they want outcome.

  17. #457
    Quote Originally Posted by Tooshie View Post
    Also a bit sad to see how the "opposition" (like how can there even be opposition in matters like these is beyond me) are just making straw men all the time how this is some big, leftist woke feminist coup when reality is, it's just people who have been treated like shit by men. Making this political is in very bad taste.
    If you had spend a bit more time in this thread, you would've noticed the other side isn't any better at staying away from strawmen arguments.

  18. #458
    Ah yes, good old management and executives NOT EVEN ON THE SAME FUCKING PLANET OF DIMENSIONS WHEN THEY ANNOUNCE HARD-STANCES!!!

    Worst is Diablo 4 will likely be another poop game now...If that is so...then fuck...Blizzard is then just another company.

  19. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by vincink View Post
    Correct. Because money speaks louder than words. And it appears some investors have lost enough confidence in Blizzard to take their money elsewhere. It works rather like a lane of fruit stands: if I buy fruit from Bob the Bastard and all of a sudden he starts spitting in my face, I will take my money to another fruit stand. And I will tell others about the disreputable Bob on the way. People speak with their feet. Money moves with feet.
    I'm aware of that. I'm just pointing out how greedy these piece of shit individuals are. In a week stock prices will be back where they were and Blizzard continues to push out shitty content that nobody enjoys and milking everything from everyone they can. Its crazy. Its even crazier that those people still have jobs. In addition to all that, they're now being sued by investors for fraud.

  20. #460
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    Let me stop you right there. I'm not some american fox goon. I'm not on the right. I'm finnish and pretty left leaning. I'm not who you think I am. So I didn't read the rest of your post, which I assume was just more strawman.

    I am sick and tired of behavior exactly like this. People jumping on the gun when they hear just one bad thing (which actually even wasn't the thing they think it was). Try to think beoynd strawmen McFly.

    Fuck you.
    I mean, he still answered your question so maybe you should have read the rest of the post.

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