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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by TrollHunter3000 View Post
    There's mountains of evidence that diversity, and more importantly inclusion, factually creates a better work environment. Not just in terms of the employees feeling more included and safe but literally leads to an increase in productive work.
    Skill, expertise, working experience and positive human characteristics(ie cooperability, will to continously improve, will to impart knowledge and expertise upon others, a sense of responsibility) matter more than all elements of diversity combined. Having 9 female nurses that are all black, who have working experience and who are good with patients, is better than having 3 white, 3 black and 3 asian nurses, with half of them being inexperienced and the experienced half having bad behavioural patterns.

  2. #462
    High Overlord vincink's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeJuice View Post
    I'm aware of that. I'm just pointing out how greedy these piece of shit individuals are. In a week stock prices will be back where they were and Blizzard continues to push out shitty content that nobody enjoys and milking everything from everyone they can. Its crazy. Its even crazier that those people still have jobs. In addition to all that, they're now being sued by investors for fraud.
    I tend to agree. There are disreputable companies that continue reap gold while hiding serious moral failings.

  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Yes I know this too. I am white and had a very hard life, I wouldn't want people to assume I had it easy because I'm white. I also have the awareness that despite having it rough, it would have been made rougher if I was a black or Latino in my same situations.
    And maybe this is the case. But is this sort of thinking, measuring suffering by millimeters and targeting our social empathy with laser precision, really how we make things better instead of just accepting that people suffer and trying to make things better for people in general with universalist language and action?

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by TrollHunter3000 View Post
    I mean, he still answered your question so maybe you should have read the rest of the post.
    I would be more inclined to read it if the person didn't start with a strawman in the first damn sentence. This isn't the first time this has happened in this thread. It's pointless to engage a person like that.
    Last edited by zorkuus; 2021-07-28 at 02:49 PM.

  5. #465
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    What if the majority of people who are the best for a specific job are almost exclusively white males.
    Is there some logical reason why that would be the case? It's possible the applicants weren't a very diverse group or all of the top tier choices weren't very diverse but that indicates a problem with outreach efforts. Why are only white guys applying? That business would likely be missing out on some top tier talent if for some reason it's only white guys applying.

    Unless for some reason you think white males are just better?

  6. #466
    ok like i was w/e originally actually like i am basically on board with the criticisms
    but safe spaces? people dont need that, requiring diversity hire? hire whos best
    just make good games ignore all this poliitcal drama, more companies are going to move to texas which dosent have a state org filing woke lawsuits hindering business-california is gonna keep losing to texas, because the politicians are too ideological. maybe it is time for blizz to move out of cali

    people forget this drama started because california has a "Department of Fair Employment and Housing" sounds kind of orwellian, i doubt texas or oklohama has something like that
    Last edited by arandomuser; 2021-07-28 at 02:52 PM.

  7. #467
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    You have to take into account that those women and minorities could potentially and largely be using their status of "victimized category" to jumpstart themselves. Not all, but many are potentially doing exactly this. I've never, ever met a woman that has done the same work as I have and gotten paid less. In fact, they are usually getting priviledged treatment at the workplace, by getting a more suitable working environment, easier sick leaves with the head of department's approval and more.

    I'm not saying that a black guy or whatever can't be good at game development. What I'm saying is that gaming, stereotypically, is a white, dadbod dude's hobby from the last century and these people happened to be founding gaming companies all over the place when nobody cared about games except them. Eminem succeeded in hip hop, but that doesn't mean that black people aren't better at hip hop than white people.
    With the spreadsheets that leaked sometime ago, this is not speculation, this is a easily verifiable fact, women were paid less. The multiple accounts make it clear and obvious that Blizzard was a terrible place to work if you are a woman/minority. You are also claiming that many women and minorities are playing their "victim card" to get a jumpstart in their career, which is pure speculation on your part.

    You seem to believe that minorities and women were a small fraction of the general gamers. Which I'm not entirely sure is true, people of all races, all around the world played games at the same time that the ones you are defending did. Your perception that it's a white man's thing is a perception that I'm not so sure to be true.

    That being said, you are still defending, or at least arguing, for a company that was verifiably terrible to their female employees. You are still saying that they were promoting them fairly. That is a risky stance to take, to say the least
    I don't want solutions. I want to be mad. - PoorlyDrawnlines

  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    Asmongold is more careful because he knows he can get in trouble and his Twitch stardom hangs in the balance because of it.
    I don't believe that. I believe he understands boundaries, and that's priceless. A friend of mine is a hardcore born-again Christian. He totally believes anyone who's not Christian will go to hell. BUT, he has gay friends, because he understands boundaries and he understands that he has to divorce certain elements of his religion from how he treats others. He also consequently respects boundaries, so he won't go telling a gay person they're going to burn in hell because his bible said so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    What if the majority of people who are the best for a specific job are almost exclusively white males.
    There's two aspects. Firstly, if a field is male dominated, it's beholden on both the education system and industry in question to understand why. Are non-white males/females or white females not interested? Or is it something more? Is there a systemic lack of opportunity from a foundational level? What is it? These things all require investigation and understanding of the societal constructs behind it. Mythic Quest had a great episode recently where David was trying to find a female employee to inspire a class of girls who had come to visit the MQ offices. That might give you insight into such a question. No one is saying don't recruit a white male if he's the best guy for the job. What people are saying is cast the net as wide as you can to ensure the opportunity is available for ANYONE - regardless of colour, religion, sex, orientation - to apply for the job.

    Secondly, once that net is cast wide, recruiters should have the mindset of putting the time in. Don't go for the 'easy' or 'convenient' option, because that in itself stymies progress. I'll give you a basic example. I went for a job, three times in 2 years. Interviewed, smashed the interviews as per the feedback given by the interviewers. But I never got the job. Why? Because the recruiters wanted to go for 'graduates' amongst the pool, even though I was technically more qualified than them. Why? Because the company had invested tens of thousands training these graduates and didn't want to look like their investment was all to waste. Whether it was or wasn't is irrelevant. And on top of that, 'graduates' are seen as the easier hire, because their paper they received from University makes it seem so. Even though I was the best man for the job as per the feedback given, they found a way around it by saying 'oh that graduate has done this obscure thing the job doesn't require, and you haven't, so nyaah'. I eventually got headhunted for a better job in the team anyway, and whilst doing this job, I'm constantly asked by the managers of those other recruits whether I can help their them because the people they recruited aren't upto snuff.

    Why did that happen? Because the recruiters didn't put the time in. They went based on what was on paper, and said 'whatever, we'll deal with it later'. Same thing happens when it comes to diversity. Recruiters often play it safe and think 'this person is just like the rest I have, so let's just keep it safe', without realising that there's better out there. They settle, they go for something that requires little thought. Which is how work cultures stagnate. Because diversity can also be diversity of thought. Diversity of working styles. Diversity of social attitudes. All of it. It all prevents an echo chamber of sameness to be built. And people rebel against that loss of 'sameness' because sameness breeds...comfort. And it's why the some recruiters do what they do, it's why some people don't want to embrace progress and so on. Because comfort is a priority. It wouldn't be a bad thing if people weren't consequently losing out. So yup. It's not as cut and dry as people make it out to be. Life would be grand if it was simple. But it's not. For better or worse.

    The old libertarian cliche of 'pull yourself up by your bootstraps and create opportunity for yourself' fails in situations where there's no gap in a market to actually create opportunities. In gaming, companies can go under regularly because there's just an inability to break a market etc etc, so there's layers and layers and layers of complication that prevents OPPORTUNITY. All because comfort is far easier than challenging the status quo. So yeah, it's more than just 'what if XYZ'. There's lots more to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivarr View Post
    Then true diversity doesn't involve gender and diversity targets or quotas either as these targets and quotas necessarily create inequality of opportunity.
    You're right. It's not true diversity. It's HR mandated diversity. It's bullshit.
    Last edited by Valkyrst; 2021-07-28 at 02:52 PM.

  9. #469
    Robert "Bobby" Kotick is an American businessman who has a net worth of $600 million. Kotick is famous for being the CEO of Activision Blizzard. He first became CEO of Activision in 1991 and later orchestrated the company's merger with Blizzard in 2008.

    Bobby Kotick's Salary: $30 Million

  10. #470
    I'm struggling to see the thought process of the people saying that blizz hired the best people for them job, while simultaneously losing market share on their main products, AND producing a culture where executives were harassing women and minorities so much that the state government had to step in.

    Like all of these things cannot be true, even if Blizz hadn't been losing market share and the forums connected to or about their games weren't full to the brim of people despising their games, maybe, just maybe, if your company has a bunch of sexual assault/harassment it's definitely not a good place with good hiring practices.

    Definitely fun times for folks to argue that gaming - that's been rife with sexual harassment at every studio - is somehow very very good at picking the right people, and that people talking about diversity and workplace policies are just selfish wokies that just want to whine.

  11. #471
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivarr View Post
    Then true diversity doesn't involve gender and diversity targets or quotas either as these targets and quotas necessarily create inequality of opportunity.
    Not quite. It's a bit more complicated then that. It's not a simple as say, "40% of the applicants are female so about 40% of those hired would expected to be female" but you would calculate a weighted expectation depending on what type of jobs you're hiring for, what the demographics of those applying for those jobs are and possibly take other factors into consideration such as work experience of the applicants by demographic. Of course, creating an actual quota isn't acceptable but you can estimate an expectation and if that expectation isn't met, there's possibly some issues in that hiring process.

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by TrollHunter3000 View Post
    Is there some logical reason why that would be the case? It's possible the applicants weren't a very diverse group or all of the top tier choices weren't very diverse but that indicates a problem with outreach efforts. Why are only white guys applying? That business would likely be missing out on some top tier talent if for some reason it's only white guys applying.

    Unless for some reason you think white males are just better?
    Is there some logical reason why it couldn't be the case? The chances aren't big, but it is possible.

    Why should anyone ask themselves why only white guys are applying? You're trying to hire people that want to work and if someone doesn't want to have a specific job, they won't apply.

    There's no reason to think that, if only white people apply for a job, that a lot of talent is being missed out on.

  13. #473
    Stood in the Fire Muxtar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrollHunter3000 View Post
    There's mountains of evidence that diversity, and more importantly inclusion, factually creates a better work environment. Not just in terms of the employees feeling more included and safe but literally leads to an increase in productive work.
    Examples please?

  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by Nimin View Post
    So long that "promoting" is merely giving them the chance, not the seat by default.
    "too many people that their dreams can't be met because mom and dad were wrong skin color" applies to everyone, white people included.
    lmao this guy thinks white people somehow miss opportunities for being white. Yeah okay my guy

  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by TrollHunter3000 View Post
    Is there some logical reason why that would be the case?
    Maybe they are the group who are the most interested in the subject matter (whatever it is)?
    Just like some other group might be better at something they are more interested in.

  16. #476
    Quote Originally Posted by BreakerOfWills View Post
    I'm struggling to see the thought process of the people saying that blizz hired the best people for them job, while simultaneously losing market share on their main products, AND producing a culture where executives were harassing women and minorities so much that the state government had to step in.
    If you actually look back on things, you'll see that most of these iconic franchises and their best installments were created by an all-male and all-white team of dudes who were, without any negative connotation, nerds for tabletop RPG games and games in general.

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    I personally am not surprised that a white dude in his fourties and fifties, who has spent his entire life playing tabletop games, MMOs and videogames in general, gets promoted over Becky that was hired to fill a mandated hiring quota. This pertains to the game development department first and foremost.
    Implying someone got their job to meet a quota is extremely offensive and shows how little you know about this topic.

  18. #478
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    Skill, expertise, working experience and positive human characteristics(ie cooperability, will to continously improve, will to impart knowledge and expertise upon others, a sense of responsibility) matter more than all elements of diversity combined. Having 9 female nurses that are all black, who have working experience and who are good with patients, is better than having 3 white, 3 black and 3 asian nurses, with half of them being inexperienced and the experienced half having bad behavioural patterns.
    I'm a white male that is a supervisor for my corporation that started diversity hires. I'm not scared because my work ethic and abilities speak for themselves. If you are scared minorities are going to take a job away from you, maybe put in the same amount that they have to to even have a base level job.

    Nepotism is rampant in every large organization and these policies break that up. Instead of people being groomed for positions they arent remotely qualified for because they are white men and "hey I'm a white man near retirement and want my legacy to continue," you see new blood and thus new ideas infused into the corporation which does make it stronger.

    Assuming you are the most qualified for a job is dangerous, especially in business where there are always hungerier sharks constantly swinming about is foolish. To see the reality you need to acknowledge and appreciate your privileges and help others that don't have that.

  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by TrollHunter3000 View Post
    Being more diverse leads to those in the minority groups feeling more included, more psychological safe, more empowered.

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    I would be more inclined to read it if the person didn't start with a strawman in the first damn sentence. This isn't the first time this has happened in this thread. It's pointless to engage a person like that.
    Boohoo, I made an assumption about where you're from. For someone who lobs insults at people, you sure are sensitive.

    Go read my reply. It'll answer your question. It'll help you understand what diversity is. Or don't. I don't care.

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