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  1. #561
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrst View Post
    You didn't read what I said OR you just cherrypicked. I didn't say a properly executed diversity hire. I'm discussing properly executed equal opportunity hiring. That doesn't mean hiring the diversity option. It means exploring all options without prejudice or subconscious bias or preference.
    People who want to argue against basic equality always act as if suitability for a job is an objective measurement like length of a stick as opposed to a collection of various things. One of the biggest examples of that is how people argue that what some folks would dismiss as "diversity hires" are rejected because they "dont fit in to company culture" but what Blizz, and Riot, and Ubisoft and so many others has laid bare is that their "company culture" is absolute rot. Which lays it very bare two things. One that even if they advertise equal opportunity hiring they're not actually doing it (so all the folks saying theyre mad at diversity hiring in gaming are basically lying) and that two they're hiring people who will either not speak out against a culture of sexual harassment, or be targets of that harassment, or be perpetrators.

    One thing people don't quite reckon with is that the "golden days" of gaming they hearken back to would be characterized by rockstars of talent who weren't part of the frat boy culture being systematically denied hiring, advancement, equal pay, and in some cases just straight up being pushed out of the medium.

  2. #562
    Man 21 century is really screwed up... damn snowflakes man. Everyone is offended and every b*tch think is sexually harassed because some guy is looking at her. Pathetic.

  3. #563
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    You really think education is indoctrination? Holy fuck the flat earth ideals have rotted our collective intelligence to new levels.
    I think propaganda masqueraded as education is indoctrination, yes. That's pretty much the definition.

  4. #564
    Quote Originally Posted by TrollHunter3000 View Post
    This is literally how statistics work. You're just factually wrong.
    I'm don't want to talk about statistics with you because you'd probably end up calling me a racist or whatever whenever faced with facts.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2021-07-28 at 03:45 PM.

  5. #565
    So what I'm getting from this thread is,

    hiring white person = bad
    hiring non-white person = good
    picking white person over non-white person = bad no matter what
    between two equally-skilled candidates, hiring based on skin color is good if you pick the non-white, but bad if you pick the white

    Funny that the people who claim to be anti-racist are, in reality, just racist against whites. Something something "horseshoe theory".
    Last edited by anon5123; 2021-07-28 at 03:47 PM.

  6. #566
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    What I think is the goal is to run a succesful business that doesn't fail in its obligations to the customers and employees. Everyone group of people can fail at this.



    What was "explained" to me is that equality of outcome is good, that in a good world every group of people would apply equally for a job and an equal amount of each would be hired. I know that to be factually wrong and mathematically unachievable without sacrificing efficiency and good business practice.

    I would expect us to start from the bottom then, with female miners, farmers, garbagewomen, female carpenters and more. Get that representation going in the sectors that number the most employees in order to hammer that equality in properly and globally, you know?



    I actually think they're not okay because, as things stand right now in the gaming industry, someone would be hired over another person just because they have a different reproductive organ or were born with a different skin color.



    They made antological games and yes, they were almost exclusively all white and male. A part of the employees and some of them are included in a recent lawsuit, which doesn't negate Blizzard's successes of the past and the fact that the majority of them never raped or sexually harassed anyone.

    The only thing that I'm getting getting from the last sentence is that you seriously believe that sexual harassment, in a workplace counting thousands, would've been impossible or that there would've surely been less of it if there were less white people at Blizzard and more of everyone else. It is an extremely silly thing to imply.
    Not one person is saying Blizzard hasn't made successful games. But the games aren't in question here. The behaviour of a number of people is.

    A number of people. Not all. That's the key point. A further issue is the wilful ignorance of the leadership in response to this behaviour.

  7. #567
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    The same reason why, for example, there might be more female and more white nurses and teachers. There are such things as natural interests that you can't really program out of people. That's not to say that white men are the only gamers and game creators, but it's a reason for why they make up the majority of the industry. Passing the buck for making [insert industry] more diverse is a bit cheap.

    Things will change with time, of course, but assuming there is a dominant group only because of evil oppression is pretty weak. Don't discount personal choice.

    Though I will admit that I personally went from wanting to work at Blizzard years ago to not even wanting to send my biggest enemy to work there, so I can't imagine how other people feel after all of this. But that's a corrupt and apathetic work environment thing, people with authority who feel they can get away with anything just plainly reveling in abusing others. I don't think you should necessarily extrapolate that that makes the entire industry unapproachable for anyone non-white and non-male.

    Frankly, regardless of skin color or sex or sexuality, I feel like most people in their right mind would want to avoid AAA gaming studios, potential harassment and abuse aside, thanks to how pervasive crunch culture is, or how you are basically seen as a throwaway tool for games that are developed in phases.
    I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp.

    We measure whether or not there are equitable outcomes using something called MATH. There is literally an entire field dedicated to this sort of thing. We can estimate expected outcomes based on the available job market and what the demographics of that market look like.

  8. #568
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivarr View Post
    Your reading comprehension needs some work.


    "Either you're hiring the person most qualified for the job (this may include those who happen to be a minority), or you're hiring someone worse, but who ticks the quota checkmark."

    The assumption people have that the state of gaming right now - mostly white dudes - is a result of hiring for most qualified and that is fundamentally incorrect.

  9. #569
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    So what I'm getting from this thread is,

    hiring white person = bad
    hiring non-white person = good
    picking white person over non-white person = bad no matter what

    Funny that the people who claim to be anti-racist are, in reality, just racist against whites. Something something "horseshoe theory".
    You then clearly don't know how to read and/or interpret information.

  10. #570
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrst View Post
    Not one person is saying Blizzard hasn't made successful games. But the games aren't in question here. The behaviour of a number of people is.

    A number of people. Not all. That's the key point. A further issue is the wilful ignorance of the leadership in response to this behaviour.
    And I don't disagree with you on any of this.

  11. #571
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrst View Post
    You then clearly don't know how to read and/or interpret information.
    "u r dum"

    Very compelling argument.

  12. #572
    Its funny watching you all how pretend you give a damn about all this ))))))))))

  13. #573
    Quote Originally Posted by natham View Post
    Man 21 century is really screwed up... damn snowflakes man. Everyone is offended and every b*tch think is sexually harassed because some guy is looking at her. Pathetic.
    This lawsuit is by the state itself after 2 years of investigation and reports of sexual and verbal harassment and abuse and a person committing suicide.

    Yes, there are opportunistic vultures on twitter leaping on all of this to add their own meager microaggression whinges for the sake of receiving "sweaty ur so brave a literal kween <3 <3 <3" and other e-cred, but that doesn't take away from the fact that there are actual victims, some men included from what I've seen.

  14. #574
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrst View Post
    I'm making the assumption to humour the guy. Follow his chain of thought and explain how it's still erroneous.

    Because at its core, there is no amount of transparency that will convince some people that diversity in the workplace is a good thing.

    Even if it's completely natural and not some engineered process.
    You have more patience than I do. From your posts, it definitely seems you're well read into these issues. I deal with people a daily basic who don't understand the math I do to calculate expected (expected used in a statistical sense) outcomes and why not meeting these expectations can be evidence that there is a systemic issue. Luckily, my job is to do the math and it's someone else's job to convince these people that they need to do something about it.

  15. #575
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    This lawsuit is by the state itself after 2 years of investigation and reports of sexual and verbal harassment and abuse and a person committing suicide.

    Yes, there are opportunistic vultures on twitter leaping on all of this to add their own meager microaggression whinges for the sake of receiving "sweaty ur so brave a literal kween <3 <3 <3" and other e-cred, but that doesn't take away from the fact that there are actual victims, some men included from what I've seen.
    As I said, damn 21 century snowflakes.

  16. #576
    Quote Originally Posted by TrollHunter3000 View Post
    What here is a buzzword? Do you know what buzzwords are?

    Imagine thinking being educated is the same as being indoctrinated.
    I mean, education can be indoctrination. Calling something education doesn't immediately make it good or flawless.

  17. #577
    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    Oo, this racism and discrimination discussion is going places... People still get triggered and are offended by diversity.
    It's apparently totally ok to get a job because you are a white male over a woman, a poc or a gay person with the same qualification.
    But it is totally not ok if the latter group gets the job.
    Nobody should get a position based on their skincolor, correct.
    Neither the white guy nor the POC or whatever person. You got us.

  18. #578
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    "u r dum"

    Very compelling argument.
    equally as compelling and unique as the other hundreds of posts crying over "diversity".

  19. #579
    Quote Originally Posted by BreakerOfWills View Post
    The assumption people have that the state of gaming right now - mostly white dudes - is a result of hiring for most qualified and that is fundamentally incorrect.
    When mostly white dudes apply for these positions then mostly white dudes holding these positions is evidence that there is no discrimination taking place. The demographic share of the applications needs to reflect the demographic share of the hired.

  20. #580
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    I get you. Just sick of this HR rainbow/woke capitalism barely sugarcoated "We'll hire more of x."

    Especially when it seems to be used as a way to get back in people's good graces after something as horrendous as this. I hope that makes sense.
    This is one of the major issues though. People thinking that all that is being done is "we'll hire more of x". Is that happening? Probably sometimes. But I can assure you that is it not an acceptable practice and with the dozens of companies I've worked with who have hundreds of thousands of employees, that is not the accepted practice.

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