Backlash opening new doors?

[deenman]

Because that is the same as naming m+ 5 and 10 and claiming thats two totally different types of content, then I could make the equally silly argument that there are a bunch more numbers above 22 than below. Suddenly we have an infinite amount of content for the <.1%.

Ignoring all that, counting pet battles as exclusive content for casuals is nonsense, everyone can participate in them, they are part of the side content in terms of MMORPGs, as they have nothing to do with your character progression.

In general it's a silly idea to claim that "casual" content is exclusive for casuals, in truth it's there for everyone interested, even the most elitist elite. On the other hand high end content is exclusive to those that have the time, skill or money only. Just because the best aren't interested in them is not much of an argument, you can say the same about any content ingame. I could also say that I only have heroic raids for me as content and just pretend all the other stuff doesn't exist.

we dont have an infinite ammount of content for high keys,because they are imposible to complete,the hardcore only really have about 4-5 levels that are doable and challenging,the casuals have 1 until atleast 15 or even more if you have better gear

but yeah,i do agree,i wish there was more to do,guild wars 2 is a good example,but where gw2 fails is where wow excels

[Osmeric]

A game isn't casual friendly just because it has some casual content; it has to be centered on the casual experience. A game that throws casuals a bone, but also reminds them constantly of their inferiority, is not casual friendly.

[Cosmic Janitor]

I do think, however, they need to avoid at all costs their reveal trailer having only 2 new things in it like in Shadowlands. They absolutely need to introduce a new class AND a new race on top of that. That one is a tried and true way to keep people entertained and their last new class entry was really good too.

I'm not so sure about the race part. Since allied races, new races have been rather cheap additions. Unless they sell this new race together with all their new home and some form of starting zone (like belfs/draenei, worgen/goblins) I don't see this being much of pull unless it's really something completely out there that ALOT of people want (and people want many different things). The new races would need to have some actual substance I feel, like being part of the story, otherwise they'd just be seen as more reskins like most allied races were perceived.

A class would be a major new thing though, that much is true. But they need to be smart about it and make sure they don't overly race-lock a new class. And if there are racial features they don't cheap out on it and make appealing customization for all races at least on the level of shamans, preferably more on the level of druids.

All of that is just box stuff though to draw people in for a box sale. The real work would begin afterwards by taking a few steps back and acknowleding that we've had too much budget design lately and systems can replace content only so many times until people see through it and feel crushed by the skinner box.

- - - Updated - - -

I've been wondering lately how much of the game's issues have been arising from what's outlined in the lawsuit. If you shovel all the work onto a minority of the workforce, produce a wildly-hostile and disruptive work environment, bleed talent due to constant harassment, and your team leader is a human calculator who boiled everything down to spreadsheets and PEMDAS math, I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out the shoddy coding, sloppy plot developments, and overly systemized gameplay obviously meant to stretch out thin offerings were the end result.

At this rate, I think the only thing that's going to improve the game will be company-level changes. A purge of the executive and middle management levels, unionized employees, and strict oversight of HR practices to restore any level of confidence in the workplace, and we might see the game improve when everyone on the team begins doing their fair share of work.

I think the game's issues and the company are mostly seperate. The games direction is dictated by the higher ups and while it would be easy to say that all of the predators are responsible for the poor direction, I feel like the issue is not stemming from that and might be closer related to some of the issues as shown by the WC3R expose and the poor attitude of the WoW team itself. The things that are happening there might make the actual development slow, that sounds reasonable, but the inability to see the difference between tier sets and domination shards is clearly not one of them.

[Marrilaife]

WoW Classic Classic, now with extra vanilla!

Most likely, that's what the poll was about as well, cycling 2 year vanilla content through 6 months sped up progression a la "seasons" so they get evergreen source of revenue without having to work on anything new.

Imagine if instead of inventing a new model of a car you could keep selling your old "vintage" model of car endlessly, except the fact producing a new copy of an old car requires more labour than opening and maintaining servers, I bet. It's literally EZ money.

[Queen of Hamsters]

We shall see in the quarterly coming soon if this has affected their bottom line.

[facelesssoul]

The sad truth is that this whole mess will lead to even further degradation of the game. I'm going to go out and say it, California has a hostile environment for businesses as a whole with political agendas wielding laws surgically to generate hype. I believe Blizzard when they say they were trying to resolve the concerns over the investigation period and that California was pushing for a suit to create maximum damage outside of courts.

The "frat boy culture" was responsible for the golden era of Vanilla-WotLK and grievances aside, we're not going to pretend that the global majority of wow players aren't made from exactly the same material (frat/troll/meme/bro culture). If compliance with ESG Scores will lead to a politically correct and dry game then they shouldn't be surprised that subs are hemorrhaging.

Claims of harassment or innocence of it mean nothing unless arbitrated by a court with SWORN statements and evidence to back either claim. Until then it's the play-field of special interest groups and corporate moves to battle it out in a messy PR-PVP battleground.

Maybe the companies moving out of Calif are on to something and Blizzard should at least create development campus in a state that is not uptight about it's workplace laws. Creative work does require many eccentric allowances to for it to thrive and if the product would always come first, companies should create bubbles where creative employees could act without inhibition (within reason) and produce a fun product as a result. A creative bubble with people acting like they are fresh into collage is okay as long as everyone there is okay with it regardless of gender.

The only new door for Blizzard at this moment is to move shop to a different state and create a clean slate to the creative process of making the games.

[hzjf]

losing profits is as good as dead to investors. that will probably be the key factor.

edit: to be on topic, i don't think anything short of scrapping all the current systems will bring players back. people were already leaving cause the game sucks. i doubt most of them will comeback because of a new minor feature if the game still sucks.

yes die please. fuck investors. MAYBE we can get a GAME back and not a 6month Sub Simulator for the Investors to wank over

WoW needs People behind it that CARE about the Game first and Numbers after. WoW will turn 20 at some Point and those Idiots still dont understand that a Good Game will attract People

[Garretdejiko]

I'd wait for their "Break glass in case of emergency" thing posibly next patch. If Arthas doesn't work, I don't know what will. I could make a wish list about new races and classes, but what I'd like the most is the removal of bs systems and their replacement with actual tier sets.

[aceperson]

yes die please. fuck investors. MAYBE we can get a GAME back and not a 6month Sub Simulator for the Investors to wank over

WoW needs People behind it that CARE about the Game first and Numbers after. WoW will turn 20 at some Point and those Idiots still dont understand that a Good Game will attract People

you need to think things through my dude. the investors are already part of the system. it's highly unlikely that they will ever be taken out. at this point, we need the investors mad to get kotick and the other halfwits out of power. so sadly, the investors are our best hope in this situation.

[Thage]

I think the game's issues and the company are mostly seperate. The games direction is dictated by the higher ups and while it would be easy to say that all of the predators are responsible for the poor direction, I feel like the issue is not stemming from that and might be closer related to some of the issues as shown by the WC3R expose and the poor attitude of the WoW team itself. The things that are happening there might make the actual development slow, that sounds reasonable, but the inability to see the difference between tier sets and domination shards is clearly not one of them.

I don't mean to insinuate the predators/abusers are solely to blame for WoW's issues. I'm saying the hostile work environment they contributed greatly to, as well as the numerous and well-documented failings of the executives within the company, contributed to the poor morale and lack of productivity that resulted in those who were doing the work either being underqualified for their position (like Ion as lead developer and Steve Danuser as head of story development), overworked due to their coworkers slagging off on company time, or a combination of both because of a dwindling talent pool thanks to Blizzard becoming known as a company to avoid for certain segments of the work force.

Shards of Domination are a good example to bring up. That sounds like something Ion designed in his office on spreadsheets, and because nobody had the authority to point out the glaring flaws in yet another system in a game already bloated with systems, or wanted to risk retaliation by doing so, instead the ones who were working amid the total shitstorm were left to try to figure out how to make yet another jury-rigged strut in a Rube Goldberg machine of jury rigs and half-measures meant to prop up fundamental issues (while failing to address those issues) work--because those at the top don't understand the issues and those at the bottom are operating in a company culture where putting your neck out is met with a swift axe.

[LostSinclair]

I'd wait for their "Break glass in case of emergency" thing posibly next patch. If Arthas doesn't work, I don't know what will. I could make a wish list about new races and classes, but what I'd like the most is the removal of bs systems and their replacement with actual tier sets.

That's my thinking to. We probably aren't going to see their Hail Mary for subs until 9.2 or .3 at the earliest but they might try to tease something along those lines to keep players distracted from the dirty laundry and various backlash going on.

As for the bs systems, borrowed power and all the other crap... I'm not expecting miracles but if that were to happen it will be in 10.0

[pewpmeiser]

Yeah no, SL is dead and whatever comes next will make 9.1 look like 5.2.

Shadowlands is alive and well.

[Deln]

Barrowed Power isn't the problem, the problem is that the systems are an empty shell. It is a loosely disguised time sink. The Legion artifact weapons were so much deeper and so well connected to the world that they were something to explore on every class to gain depth into the world. The amount of work put into Legion versus the last two expansion is obvious.

This is the main issue with the current version of WoW. All the systems are just poorly disguised time sinks with not much in the way of hooks or variety of play. Time sinks for the sake of time sinks is poor game design. Design systems and content that is immersive and fun and the amount of time folks will play will far outpace the current systems.

My hope is that the current version of developers reconnects with the passion and love of the game shown in legion. We know a few of the creative minds with obvious deep love for the game have moved on. The new group needs to find that love. Making great games is hard work, and if the only reward for making them is money they will continue to be sub par to those games made with passion and love for the genre.

[Cosmic Janitor]

I'd wait for their "Break glass in case of emergency" thing posibly next patch. If Arthas doesn't work, I don't know what will. I could make a wish list about new races and classes, but what I'd like the most is the removal of bs systems and their replacement with actual tier sets.

The thing with Arthas is, even if that might drive some initial interest, if the treatment ends up the same rubbish as the cringe warrior arc or Elune, then it will only result in souring people even more - on top of the ones that already don't want to see Arthas rehashed.

[Quaade]

In the best-case scenario for WoW Ian Kompetentoss gets fired. He's legit the cause of the game being in such a shit direction as it is now with his love of spreadsheets trouncing his love of the game. And before anyone says anything about other people coding/drawing/implementing stuff none of them would go in that direction unless Ian Kompetentoss had okayed it first. As the Game Director, he sets the micro-course while the board of EA sets the macro-course of, "make us money," everyone on the team works under him. He gets to decide what they should work on and they've no control over the direction. Every horrible decision that affects anything on a micro-level is ultimately caused by him.

[Luck4]

In the best-case scenario for WoW Ian Kompetentoss gets fired. He's legit the cause of the game being in such a shit direction as it is now with his love of spreadsheets trouncing his love of the game. And before anyone says anything about other people coding/drawing/implementing stuff none of them would go in that direction unless Ian Kompetentoss had okayed it first. As the Game Director, he sets the micro-course while the board of EA sets the macro-course of, "make us money," everyone on the team works under him. He gets to decide what they should work on and they've no control over the direction. Every horrible decision that affects anything on a micro-level is ultimately caused by him.

I don't think Ion should be fired because he knows how to make raid encounters, but he definitely needs to be removed from the Game Director's position, also keep him away from the Game Systems Designer position for God's sake!

[Gaidax]

Ion and the team is what is keeping this whole ship floating.

I think he's giga underappreciated, the ability to pull out non-stop tier patches for years is exceptional and it's a key to WoW still staying in millions of subs. It's really critical. like look at Shadowlands 9.0, they flapped here - released 9.1 8 months after - this overstretched 9.0 good 2-3 months beyond what it was supposed to be and resulted in sour experience.

Yes, there is a cost to it - they can't really do another "Legion" grade expansion - an expansion that shakes up and rejuvenates WoW like this, because that needs a good year plus break. That break is unfeasible.


But in my opinion between various shitheads that left, were removed or still lurking in Blizzard, Ion is not one. Blizzard does need to help him out though, it is clear that he can't keep this up for much longer and you can't just have next expansion be just another reskin of Legion, people want something new. Legion formula was good, but you can only eat same food for so long.

[Luck4]

Ion and the team is what is keeping this whole ship floating.

I think he's giga underappreciated, the ability to pull out non-stop tier patches for years is exceptional and it's a key to WoW still staying in millions of subs. It's really critical. like look at Shadowlands 9.0, they flapped here - released 9.1 8 months after - this overstretched 9.0 good 2-3 months beyond what it was supposed to be and resulted in sour experience.

Yes, there is a cost to it - they can't really do another "Legion" grade expansion - an expansion that shakes up and rejuvenates WoW like this, because that needs a good year plus break. That break is unfeasible.

Most people are not leaving because of lack of content, I mean 9.1 just dropped... but because of its systems, daily chores, lore, and now the lawsuit. And I'm sure Ion is responsible for the decisions regarding the game systems and daily chores, so his decisions are one of the main causes that people are leaving.

When this video below was streamed last year I remember people complaining in chat, also Preach talked a lot about the flaws of these systems during BETA, way BEFORE the launch, and NOTHING changed...



Do you remember which systems we had in WOTLK and MOP, can you remember them? Yeah... that's why this game is doing so bad these days...

[Gaidax]

Most people are not leaving because of lack of content, I mean 9.1 just dropped... but because of its systems, daily chores, lore, and now the lawsuit.

Because clearly systems, daily chores and lore are some completely new issue for Shadowlands never seen before ever.

They leave because there is no decent content that all. 9.0 lasting 3 months more than it should have and then casual players get Korthia is just not good enough and there is little else for casual player, which is what majority of players are.

I'm personally a raider, I have mythic raid to clear, that's a good 3 months of stuff to do for me right there. But outside that? What did we get? A new area half the size of Mechagon and quarter the fun? Assaults and covenant campaign that is about to be over? The Megadungeon is good, but it's 2 runs and done, if that.

This patch really can't last more than 6 months total and even that is a stretch seeing how the raid is relatively easy.

Lawsuit many people love to pretend they care because their favorite streamer works overtime virtue signaling, but reality is Blizz is not the first and not the last with that one.

What truly decides is whether the game is as a whole has a lot of interesting content to do or not. Legion had shitton of systems and shit, but people were there because there was metric ton of great content for casual players in-between huge ass Suramar, class campaigns, new class and visual goodies with artifacts.


If they will be able to recreate that with 10.0, it will surge just like it did in Legion after whole WoD thing.

[Dracullus]

Most people are not leaving because of lack of content, I mean 9.1 just dropped... but because of its systems, daily chores, lore, and now the lawsuit. And I'm sure Ion is responsible for the decisions regarding the game systems and daily chores, so his decisions are one of the main causes that people are leaving.

When this video below was streamed last year I remember people complaining in chat, also Preach talked a lot about the flaws of these systems during BETA, way BEFORE the launch, and NOTHING changed...

Do you remember which systems we had in WOTLK and MOP, can you remember them? Yeah... that's why this game is doing so bad these days...

It's easy to complain, it's hard to come with better solution. WoW is 17 years old RPG, it's unnatural situation. We have 3 potential scenarios:

1) Level/expac give 'pernament' stuff like new talent or spell - it was case up to MoP. Works perfectly in RPG that has, you know, end. You get uber strong, you kill dragon, roll credits. But in WoW it created problem that stacked over years. It was fine in Wrath, it wasn't so fine in MoP anymore. Of course now it is forgotten, but class homogenization was serious problem. Now imagine 2-3 more expansions with new spell/talent.

2) There is baseline for class (don't forget it change and can incorporate spells from "borrowed power") + system designed for current expansion only. It creates a stable cycle that can sustain game for years.. in theory. Cause with every iteration more and more people feel like they are hamsters on a spinning wheel.

3) Nothing - it's something you propose. Closest to that was WoD, but even WoD introduced few talents. I won't even comment this, it's just recipe for failure in RPG.

People like Preach are best in complaining, but any of these 'experts' gave some alternative solution? Cause it's hard problem, but no one said there is no better answer than 'borrowed powers'.