Too much friction to enjoy the game

[Tyris Flare]

its based on top parses... jeez people who performed best have covenant that perform best, what a surprise...
nobody EVER denied minmaxers will choose "the best", but they are not the only people playing the game...

"Based on 119750 top Mythic+ logs and 157294 top Sanctum of Domination parses."
so 120k of m+ logs, rio have 3,463,298 in database, so this is roughly top 3%... and even there its not ALL people in "the best" covenant...

The general IO crawler data from season 1 was nearly the same, and it was only looking at characters that had completed any key and killed any raid boss.

I haven't seen this general data for s2 yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is similar. Elite opinion matters a lot in this game. The trickle-down meta is very real, and covenants are poorly balanced.

[Biomega]

Before SL launched I really liked the idea of being hard-locked into some choice in the game, that there would be some form of consequences for a decision we made.

Consequences like "sorry we're not taking you for this group, because Venthyr deals 2,000dps more damage than Necrolord for your spec". Which I'm sure you'll agree is not what most people had in mind when they thought of "choices matter".

[Stormdash]

Is it just me who feels restricted in my ability to play Shadowlands the way I want and therefore unable to fully enjoy the game? Areas of friction limiting my freedom and enjoyment include:

1) Legendaries:
Blizzard appears to have put a significant amount of effort into creating all the different legendary memories (approximately 20 per class) and each can be crafted into 11 different slots and each slot can be upgraded by 6 item level tiers. To craft the legendaries requires a significant amount of gold or materials for the base item, x40 Korthite crystals which I receive around 2 per day (20days to farm), 1550 Soul ash, and 1650 Soul Cinders (4 weeks of torghast). What is the purpose of this design? How does Blizzard intend for the player to interact with this complex and restrictive process? I would enjoy trying them all myself but it appears that the only option is to carefully pick 1 or 2 to invest in and hope it remains a competitive choice. Why did they make so many options then restrict the player's ability to try them out?

2) Covenants:
I've spent around 4 months collecting and leveling max command table companions, 2 months collecting conduits, 3 months on the sanctum upgrades. Why do players need to forfeit this and start over in a new covenant to try another class-covenant combination and experience the rest of the shadowlands story? What is the intent of this restriction?

3) Conduit Energy: Why does this exist?

I understand some amount of friction to make game decisions seem meaningful but the amount of friction is too high that I feel controlled by the game. I make a decision then I'm stuck unless I'm willing to invest a tremendous amount of time grinding to catch up. It's opressive.

Legendary progress is what finally broke me. I already hated Torghast but I dutifully resolved to give 9.1 a shot and start grinding up to make my Kyrian leggo for paladin... and then I said "well, better go by AH and pick up the base item" only to find that... it cost half a million gold. Fuck and that. And since they have put so much BS into player power design over really last few expansions I know I'd feel substandard w/o it so I'll just keep playing some TBC and also start deeper into FF14. Retail for me is done-zo until we get to a serious redesign.

[Lolites]

The general IO crawler data from season 1 was nearly the same, and it was only looking at characters that had completed any key and killed any raid boss.

have link or its just "i rememebre it like that"?

sure, trickle down meta is real, and im sure a lot of players do what "best" players do... on the other hand a lot of players couldnt care about "best players" less...
so why accommodate only that part of players that do what "top" players do and choose meta? after all, if meta drones will pick "best" anyway does it matter if its locked or not?
on the other hand, to casuals who what that choice to actualy mean something and not be just a "loadout" like in a moba or whatnot it DOES mean a lot its more or less locked...

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Consequences like "sorry we're not taking you for this group, because Venthyr deals 2,000dps more damage than Necrolord for your spec". Which I'm sure you'll agree is not what most people had in mind when they thought of "choices matter".

yeah, sure 2000 dps difference... keep dreaming pal...

[Biomega]

yeah, sure 2000 dps difference... keep dreaming pal...

I guess this must be a dream then... Although fair enough, it's only 1.6k. You got me there.

[Lolites]

I guess this must be a dream then... Although fair enough, it's only 1.6k. You got me there.

please dont hesitate to show some proof so we know you didnt pull it out of your ass

[Biomega]

please dont hesitate to show some proof so we know you didnt pull it out of your ass

I mean, did you even click the link?

[Cosmic Janitor]

I mean, did you even click the link?

Don't bother, he is an ultra shill. If you post the covenant class distributions we've seen during S1, which were posted dozens if not hundrets of times, he'd just handwave them away.

Edit: I gladly take that infraction if it means calling out people who have utterly lost contact with reality, and that is the nicest thing that can be said about such people. Thanks for making my point though. Also learn what trolling means, seriously.

[Thage]

This is what happens when the game is designed entirely on spreadsheets. Ion's a good math guy but he's completely inept when it comes to actually designing things as a cohesive whole; everything is done on its own spreadsheet and treated in a vacuum. Individually the systems aren't too bad, but as a collective whole it's just systems layered on systems layered on systems that unlock more systems.

[Lolites]

I mean, did you even click the link?

didnt notice it my bad...
well, WITH LEGENDARY included (which is another factor, so not rly depending on covenant) and if considering LOWEST soulbind in one covenant and highest in other, and pure single target, there is THEORETICAL difference 1600dps...

so in reality, and if you consider best soulbinds in every covenant and with the same legendary, and in different situations (unless you refuse to fight any boss thats not pure single target) difference is actualy FAAAAR lower (and still theoretical)...

[Tyris Flare]

on the other hand a lot of players couldnt care about "best players" less...
so why accommodate only that part of players that do what "top" players do and choose meta? after all, if meta drones will pick "best" anyway does it matter if its locked or not?
on the other hand, to casuals who what that choice to actualy mean something and not be just a "loadout" like in a moba or whatnot it DOES mean a lot its more or less locked...

Balancing the game around people who don't care about performance is pointless for reasons I would assume are obvious.

But for the 2nd question, the meta changes so a lock would incentivize having multiple characters of the same class, and Blizzard has taken steps in other ways to prevent or minimize this type of degeneracy (as we saw with Legion legendary RNG in the first patch).

I do agree on the general point expressed her that they haven't succeeded at all in adding friction to this "choice." Pretty much everything they've added only serves to annoy people who care about it the most. That's the sign of a bad system. Covenants don't have enough RPG elements to be a real "choice" for RPG minded players and they are obnoxious to people who care about performance. It is not a good system for anyone and we've all known this since beta.

[Lolites]

Don't bother, he is an ultra shill. If you post the covenant class distributions we've seen during S1, which were posted dozens if not hundrets of times, he'd just handwave them away.

you mean the distribution that "people" like you posted that considered tiny minority of "elite" playerbase and STILL shown that 1/3 specs had less than half in the same covenant and only like 2 specs were over 80% in one while you blatantly LIED it shows VAST MAJORITY picked "the best"?
yeah ofc i handwave something thats posted as proof of something and in fact disproves it, everyone with at least half a brain would...
but for that you would first have to UNDERSTAND the data before posting them, i know some people are not capable of that and just yell their bullshit thinking thousand ttimes repeated lie becomes truth... nothing new

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Balancing the game around people who don't care about performance is pointless for reasons I would assume are obvious.

and i did not say to balance around them, just dont fuck them over just so minmaxers and meta drones could do 0.1% more dps in every situation...
meta chenges so people CAN change covenant, thats absolutely no issue, you just cant change it daily, i think its good compromise

[Lolites]

It is not a good system for anyone and we've all known this since beta.

i disagree, and if you checked some topics on this forum im not alone, which is surprising as this forum is always doom and gloom...

[Biomega]

didnt notice it my bad...
well, WITH LEGENDARY included (which is another factor, so not rly depending on covenant) and if considering LOWEST soulbind in one covenant and highest in other, and pure single target, there is THEORETICAL difference 1600dps...

so in reality, and if you consider best soulbinds in every covenant and with the same legendary, and in different situations (unless you refuse to fight any boss thats not pure single target) difference is actualy FAAAAR lower (and still theoretical)...

Actually the effective difference is LARGER rather than smaller, because the way certain abilities work in application to fight timings makes them disproportionately more powerful - that's why all the Boomkins are Venthyr now, as the burst windows are highly useful on certain fights due to how things end up timing.

In any event, the differences are significant enough to skew people's decisions, and rightly so. If everything was equal or near enough we wouldn't have this issue, but everyone knew going in that would never be the case (and indeed it isn't).

[Tyris Flare]

i disagree, and if you checked some topics on this forum im not alone, which is surprising as this forum is always doom and gloom...

If you consider yourself an RPG player and are happy with what the covenant system has provided for you I'm not sure what to say. It's like the crappiest, watered-down version of what you'd get in an actual single player game.

[Lolites]

as the burst windows are highly useful on certain fights due to how things end up timing.

and on fights where burst is not desirable they are weaker, and its due to nature of fights, not due to covenant balance...
thats the thing, different covenants are useful in different situations, but ALL need to be considered, not one...

its like if i compare myself to best wheelchair basketball player in the world on who can jump higher - ofc in that circumstances which are COMPLETELY in my favour i would look like a better sportsman...

ill give you example - as frost DK with obliteration build, i go necrolord due to aesthetics, but its even most picked covenant and its still a good choice despite not being best in ANYTHING
if i consider only raiding best would be kyrian, if only m+ night fae would be best, necrolord is literaly not best in anything, BUT its good in everything... thats why its important to consider ALL options
sure, some specs will end up with one covenant being best in every situation, even though in some only marginaly, but with 36 specs thats pretty hard to avoid unless you had PERFECT balance (which is literaly imposible)

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If you consider yourself an RPG player and are happy with what the covenant system has provided for you I'm not sure what to say. It's like the crappiest, watered-down version of what you'd get in an actual single player game.

oh covenants as a whole are weak as far as rpg goes, but thats completely different issue than locking the abilities...
locking the abilities DOES indeed provide RPG choice, should covenants provide more? definitely, but should the ONLY rpg choice in covenants be removed bcs its not as much rpg as it could be? how would that make it better for people who like it? literaly only minmaxers would have SLIGHT benefit, while people who want more rpg would loose even the little we got...

[Kalador]

oh covenants as a whole are weak as far as rpg goes, but thats completely different issue than locking the abilities...
locking the abilities DOES indeed provide RPG choice, should covenants provide more? definitely, but should the ONLY rpg choice in covenants be removed bcs its not as much rpg as it could be? how would that make it better for people who like it? literaly only minmaxers would have SLIGHT benefit, while people who want more rpg would loose even the little we got...

The problem is they are neither lock or free to swap.

Those kind of choice can work when they are real choice but covenant can be swaped in 2 days of grind + a week of renown painful grind. Because of this they are just extremely annoying. Blizzard as a big tendency to make it the worst of both world. Same with azerite armor, conduits, legendary etc.. They want those system to be a long term choice but half back out of it by making them painful to swap and then are surprise player burn themselves swapping.

[Lolites]

The problem is they are neither lock or free to swap.

Those kind of choice can work when they are real choice but covenant can be swaped in 2 days of grind + a week of renown painful grind.

which for casuals who dont play 24/7 is good enough
but thats beside my point, yes as a rpg element its mediocre, but removing the little rpg we got wouldnt benefit people who like some rpg in their MMORPG AT ALL, it would literaly benefit only minmaxers, who play the "best" no matter what, even now...

[deenman]

Covenants should have been cosmetic, and Soulbinds should have been defensive only. No Covenant abilities.

blizzard is to incompetent to do cosmetics,the only thing we have in wow is transmog,and its actualy pretty damn restrictive compared to other mmo's

and how the hell does a company with the biggest and most popular mmo (until now),fail so miserably in the cosmetics department?

we have NOTHING...no player housing,no dyes,no costumes,no mount skin options etc etc

how is this a multi bilion dollar company?

[Powerogue]

1) I strongly disagree with that last bit, crafting the legendaries at their low tier to try them out is absolutely an option, then upgrading later. I've done that for several on my monk. For example one that said it was BIS, but just didn't mesh at all with how I played the class. Others might go the other direction, using the BIS anyway but keeping the other more fun one for lower difficulty content and soloing. I've felt rewarded for experimenting over Legion's 100% RNG system, though one of those memories did elude me for about a month.

2) The point is to pick one. It's not a "meaningful choice" if you can't choose wrong and they're all effectively exactly the same. It's not perfect but I don't have any better ideas.

3) Had to look it up to know what you meant. Presumably so that people don't go back to their covenant to change them between every single boss and piece of content. What I'm not happy with is that there are some trees which seem good for more than one spec, but it seems like as a tribrid I have to pick one tree per spec as the other two are already taken by the other specs. Not even sure if I'm right on that but that's how it seems to work.