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  1. #21
    Had Thrall died either during WotLK or before Cata & his abdication of the Warchief role, the first thing we can say for sure is that Garrosh would not have been Warchief. Most of the Horde leaders didn't want him as Warchief & really, Garrosh himself only took the role reluctantly. Thrall pretty much had to talk him into it during The Shattering. As we hadn't had a non-Orc Warchief to this point & it took Thrall suggesting Vol'jin to get the first non-Orc Warchief, I think we still likely would've had an Orc in charge. Saurfang would've been a great person for that role, but pending when the killing happened he'd either be busy with the Northrend Assault or mourning his son. Eitrigg might well be the next best candidate.

    What that also means however is that we don't really have a good fill in for the Aspect of Earth when Deathwing does his assault. Drek'Thar would likely be too old to fulfill the role, plus his body has been weakened enough that he is using a wheelchair. Magatha is too evil to really be trusted in that role. That leaves us with Rehgar, Muln, or Nobundo to fulfill that role. Of those, I'm not sure who would be most qualified.

    Pandaria...it's hard to know how that land would be. Until Garrosh took the Heart of Y'Shaarj from the Vale, that land was constantly threatened by the Sha. The main question here is whether Garrosh would've ever fought the new Warchief in a Mak'gora for control of the Horde like he did with Thrall just before the Northrend Assault. If he had, we'd likely have had everything the same as it was. If not, it's possible Pandaria is still stuck in fear to this very day.

    We also have to consider how much this would have changed the Legion invasion. Without Garrosh taking the role of Warchief, it's unlikely we go to AU Draenor, which means it's unlikely that Gul'dan ever gets sent through the portal at the end of HFC. Without him leading the assault, it seems potentially likely that Sargeras would have had time to finish his plans on Argus before assaulting Azeroth, and we likely would have had a hard time stopping him.

  2. #22
    We would have been spared his monotonous shite all these years, whatever happens after that is a bonus.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I don't think Garrosh would've survived a Mak'gora challenge from Cairne, though; and perhaps not from Vol'jin either. His popularity wouldn't matter overly if he was defeated in ritual combat by a legitimate challenger to the position.
    We KNOW he wouldn't have.

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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    We KNOW he wouldn't have.
    Well, we'll never know for 100% sure, given that they were unable to complete their duel - but given that Cairne was basically wiping the walls with Garrosh when the poison took hold I'd say we can be reasonably sure of it.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  5. #25
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Yeah, Deathwing wins without thrall, no question

    if you are asking what would happen with the horde, saurfang or garrosh would have assumed, maybe eitrigg too, cause they were older and had more status among the orcs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    We KNOW he wouldn't have.
    we don't rly, plenty of fighters lose while in the upperhand, if you start all out you lose stamina quickly, Cairne even if not showing was old and Garrosh had experience in fighting bigger and stronger enemies like ogres.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    we don't rly, plenty of fighters lose while in the upperhand, if you start all out you lose stamina quickly, Cairne even if not showing was old and Garrosh had experience in fighting bigger and stronger enemies like ogres.
    Cairne was crushing Garrosh at the beginning of their duel, to the point that Garrosh feared his own death was soon to come. Even when it was over and Garrosh eked out a shameful victory due to Magatha's interference, he admitted himself in his latter to the Elder Crone that he would now never know if he could've won on his own - which is why he was so angered by her interference.

    All in all, the tableau seems heavily tilted in Cairne's favor if Magatha hadn't been involved. Tauren are much smarter and can be altogether more brutal than any ogre.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  7. #27
    Garrosh would never have been warchief, probably would've defaulted to Cairne or some promising orc that everyone likes, like Eitrigg or something. Cata would have ended in diplomatic agreement and cooperation, since the only reason the Horde lacked resources is because Garrosh has the negotiating skills of a rampaging toddler.

    The faction war as a whole would probably be a long-dead memory and he'd be glorified as the hero who gave his life for the New Horde and created an age of revolution. It's kind of funny to think that a lot of the conflict that would have happened in WoW between the Alliance and Horde could have just been stopped by Thrall not making dumb choices...
    If you reply to me with a full essay I'm probably not going to bother reading it, sorry.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Cairne was crushing Garrosh at the beginning of their duel, to the point that Garrosh feared his own death was soon to come. Even when it was over and Garrosh eked out a shameful victory due to Magatha's interference, he admitted himself in his latter to the Elder Crone that he would now never know if he could've won on his own - which is why he was so angered by her interference.
    i know what you are trying to do here, but i know how the fight went, i read the book too, im saying we don't what could have happened because a number of things could have happened.

    Again, plenty of fighters start crushing, but they lost in the end, is not 100% safe and sure to say Cairne would have won, if we take the timelines into account, there is probably a few that Magatha didn't poison gorehowl and Cairne won or Garrosh still won in the end.

    All in all, the tableau seems heavily tilted in Cairne's favor if Magatha hadn't been involved. Tauren are much smarter and can be altogether more brutal than any ogre.
    Of course you can say tauren are smarter(ignoring there is plenty of intelligent ogres, as they can be mages just fine) but more brutal than an ogre is a subjective matter, as ogres tend to be bigger, more savage and more resistant due to the fat.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Yeah, Deathwing wins without thrall, no question
    I thought about this, but there's no real saying that nobody else would've stepped up to the plate if Thrall hadn't been available. He was a strong shaman but he never had any incredible traits that made only him capable of doing these things.
    If you reply to me with a full essay I'm probably not going to bother reading it, sorry.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    Garrosh would never have been warchief, probably would've defaulted to Cairne or some promising orc that everyone likes, like Eitrigg or something. Cata would have ended in diplomatic agreement and cooperation, since the only reason the Horde lacked resources is because Garrosh has the negotiating skills of a rampaging toddler.

    The faction war as a whole would probably be a long-dead memory and he'd be glorified as the hero who gave his life for the New Horde and created an age of revolution. It's kind of funny to think that a lot of the conflict that would have happened in WoW between the Alliance and Horde could have just been stopped by Thrall not making dumb choices...

    If Garrosh was not warchief the horde would be no longer, the people would die by famine and the alliance would crush then.

    Varian and the alliance went full war in wtlk, they didn't wnt to "negotiate" or have peace, its delusional to think it was his fault for the war,

  11. #31
    I guess Cairne would have become warchief and we would have had world peace

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    I thought about this, but there's no real saying that nobody else would've stepped up to the plate if Thrall hadn't been available. He was a strong shaman but he never had any incredible traits that made only him capable of doing these things.
    the point of cata is how no one could be the earth wander, he was the only one capable, not just because he was "the strong shaman" but because his connection with the elements, thus the earth.


    If there was other option, im sure they would have chosen over an orc, like malfurion by example as dragons are biased with elves

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Arikara View Post
    I guess Cairne would have become warchief and we would have had world peace
    yes, because there would be only alliance.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    If Garrosh was not warchief the horde would be no longer, the people would die by famine and the alliance would crush then.

    Varian and the alliance went full war in wtlk, they didn't wnt to "negotiate" or have peace, its delusional to think it was his fault for the war,
    The reason the Alliance began "crushing" and attacking the Horde is because the Horde were the instigators under Garrosh. Without Garrosh being promoted, it never would have blown up into all-out war.

    Hell, night elves were on cold but diplomatic relations with the orcs until the Twilight's Hammer sabotaged it and Garrosh blew the diplomatic agreement in Theramore spectacularly. The Alliance and Horde came within a hair of finally diplomatically reaching a truce so many times only for some dumbass on one side to ruin it.
    If you reply to me with a full essay I'm probably not going to bother reading it, sorry.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    i know what you are trying to do here, but i know how the fight went, i read the book too, im saying we don't what could have happened because a number of things could have happened.

    Again, plenty of fighters start crushing, but they lost in the end, is not 100% safe and sure to say Cairne would have won, if we take the timelines into account, there is probably a few that Magatha didn't poison gorehowl and Cairne won or Garrosh still won in the end.
    I already said that above - but I still maintain Cairne had the edge, and thus the better chance of winning without factoring in Magatha.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Of course you can say tauren are smarter(ignoring there is plenty of intelligent ogres, as they can be mages just fine) but more brutal than an ogre is a subjective matter, as ogres tend to be bigger, more savage and more resistant due to the fat.
    In my experience, smarter fighters tend to have the edge over larger fighters. The average Tauren is also about 10' tall where Ogres can be anywhere from 6' to 12' feet tall, and both races are exceedingly strong. Not to mention Tauren have the edge with natural weaponry such as their horns and hooves.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    the point of cata is how no one could be the earth wander, he was the only one capable, not just because he was "the strong shaman" but because his connection with the elements, thus the earth.


    If there was other option, im sure they would have chosen over an orc, like malfurion by example as dragons are biased with elves
    He was widely considered the strongest shaman in the Earthen Ring, and had an intimate connection with the elements, but he never had anything particularly unique that didn't mean another couldn't take his place if it was absolutely necessary. I'm not saying it might not've ended badly - it's all speculation after all - but I think it's definitely a possibility that there would have been someone else capable, possibly even Wrathion if they hadn't blown relations with him so early on.
    If you reply to me with a full essay I'm probably not going to bother reading it, sorry.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    The reason the Alliance began "crushing" and attacking the Horde is because the Horde were the instigators under Garrosh. Without Garrosh being promoted, it never would have blown up into all-out war.
    No, Varian declared war against the horde, and was attacking then before Garrosh was close to be warchief. Garrosh just fought back in cata.

    Hell, night elves were on cold but diplomatic relations with the orcs until the Twilight's Hammer sabotaged it and Garrosh blew the diplomatic agreement in Theramore spectacularly. The Alliance and Horde came within a hair of finally diplomatically reaching a truce so many times only for some dumbass on one side to ruin it.
    those are two different scenarios, and the night elves had already cut the trade because wrathgate.

    you guys keep acting like it was just garrosh fault when he merely fought back alliance attacks and incursions.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I already said that above - but I still maintain Cairne had the edge, and thus the better chance of winning without factoring in Magatha.
    and i never said At the moment Cairne didn't had the upperhand, i actually highlight that, i said just because some fighters have the edge/upperhand, that does not mean they will always win. As there is plenty of fighters who start crushing but lose in the end, that shit happens a lot in boxing.

    In my experience, smarter fighters tend to have the edge over larger fighters. The average Tauren is also about 10' tall where Ogres can be anywhere from 6' to 12' feet tall, and both races are exceedingly strong. Not to mention Tauren have the edge with natural weaponry such as their horns and hooves.
    And Garrosh was a smarter fighter, you can shit all you want in his hot-head behaviour, but he still was one of the best warriors with fine strategies. Ogres also can do that, with their gladiator background. The point i made is how Garrosh knew how to fight bigger and stronger guys, he was not completly at Cairne mercy, as even he going all out he didn't won quickly or scored a decisive blow..
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2021-07-30 at 10:25 PM.

  17. #37
    I'd like to have seen some huge battle for the crown, like the skeksis battle for power in the Dark Crystal where they strike the stone with a sword and the winner is the one that makes the most impressive hit.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  18. #38
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    A soul for a soul. Dranosh is spared of death in exchange for Thrall. Dranosh becomes the next Warchief and usher in a new golden age for the Horde.
    Last edited by Clone; 2021-07-30 at 10:33 PM.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    The reason the Alliance began "crushing" and attacking the Horde is because the Horde were the instigators under Garrosh. Without Garrosh being promoted, it never would have blown up into all-out war.
    Except for the part where they weren't. Varian declared war in WotLK, tried killing the Warchief of the Horde, another Horde racial leader and conquering a Horde capital. Then the factions squabbled in various PvP areas of WotLK and in some additional questlines like the Mord'rethar one. And even though the factions eventually managed to get a truce, it's still the Alliance that broke it. Garrosh attacked the Alliance only in the wake of Cataclysm, smelling an opportunity for an attack. Theramore's attack on the Barrens and the conquest of Honor's Stand happened before the Cataclysm.


    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    Hell, night elves were on cold but diplomatic relations with the orcs until the Twilight's Hammer sabotaged it and Garrosh blew the diplomatic agreement in Theramore spectacularly. The Alliance and Horde came within a hair of finally diplomatically reaching a truce so many times only for some dumbass on one side to ruin it.
    The Night Elves had such monumental "diplomatic relations" with the Orcs at the time that they broke their trade treaty with the Horde already after Wrathgate. And Garrosh truly blew the diplomatic agreement in Theramore when he mind controlled Varian to sperg about ermahgerd muh Horde betrayal just because he saw a glimpse of Garona, who had no affiliation with Thrall's New Horde ever since its inception. Oh, wait, the mind control bit did not happen and it was all on Varian. Just like it was on Varian when he made moronic demands about the (Twilight Hammer) attack in Ashenvale with the peace negotiations hanging on it.
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    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    yes, because there would be only alliance.
    pft. Considering your long history of sycophancy to the utter buffoon responsible for the decline of the Horde and the huge split in its player base that is presently on display, don't you think that's a bit hypocritical?

    Without Garrosh, given writers that are actually willing to realistically resolve in-universe problems and not just drive further mindless conflict for the sake of cheap drama—which is the sole reason Garrosh even exists, by the way—the Ashenvale conflict could have been long since peacefully solved with Cenarion druids agreeing to grow and provide lumber for the orcs, the Barrens incursions would never have occurred, and future conflict could have been forestalled by, I don't know, actual diplomacy and trade relations.

    But of course, everything has to be solved with conflict because you cant tell a story without drama and violence, and therefore every faction leader must be an aggressive and selfish fool, as the current writers have so beautifully cultivated; cue the present deplorable writing.
    Last edited by Arikara; 2021-07-30 at 11:34 PM.

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