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  1. #41
    Garrosh would have kept doing Mak'gora's against any leader who challenged him until no named chars were left since Blizzard wanted to keep the faction conflict going.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    i know what you are trying to do here, but i know how the fight went, i read the book too, im saying we don't what could have happened because a number of things could have happened.

    Again, plenty of fighters start crushing, but they lost in the end, is not 100% safe and sure to say Cairne would have won, if we take the timelines into account, there is probably a few that Magatha didn't poison gorehowl and Cairne won or Garrosh still won in the end.



    Of course you can say tauren are smarter(ignoring there is plenty of intelligent ogres, as they can be mages just fine) but more brutal than an ogre is a subjective matter, as ogres tend to be bigger, more savage and more resistant due to the fat.
    I know your an orc fanatic but everything we know implies Cairne would have won and his son easily tore Garrosh apart with his bare hands in the alt timeline. Sure Cairne was much older but the dude was already like 100 during the 3rd war and still easily fucked shit up.
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2021-07-30 at 11:50 PM.

  2. #42
    Bloodsail Admiral Cloudmaker's Avatar
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    Thrall, I believe is a key character in Shadowlands. We will need him to restore ballance in the Universe. Can't wait for him do do his shaman work.
    #SaveAlgalon

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    I thought about this, but there's no real saying that nobody else would've stepped up to the plate if Thrall hadn't been available. He was a strong shaman but he never had any incredible traits that made only him capable of doing these things.
    He had, he was world shaman, he was chosen to be earth warden momentarily by gaining the trust of the aspects.
    Only thrall at that point of time could have wielded the dragon soul.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Arikara View Post
    pft. Considering your long history of sycophancy to the utter buffoon responsible for the decline of the Horde and the huge split in its player base that is presently on display, don't you think that's a bit hypocritical?

    Without Garrosh, given writers that are actually willing to realistically resolve in-universe problems and not just drive further mindless conflict for the sake of cheap drama—which is the sole reason Garrosh even exists, by the way—the Ashenvale conflict could have been long since peacefully solved with Cenarion druids agreeing to grow and provide lumber for the orcs, the Barrens incursions would never have occurred, and future conflict could have been forestalled by, I don't know, actual diplomacy and trade relations.

    But of course, everything has to be solved with conflict because you cant tell a story without drama and violence, and therefore every faction leader must be an aggressive and selfish fool, as the current writers have so beautifully cultivated; cue the present deplorable writing.
    Wasnt garrosh going to be a honorable orc, the counter part in the horde of varian, but had to be changed because of gameplay reasons or something?.

  4. #44
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arikara View Post
    pft. Considering your long history of sycophancy to the utter buffoon responsible for the decline of the Horde and the huge split in its player base that is presently on display, don't you think that's a bit hypocritical?
    are you ok dude? you know you are on a forum right?
    Without Garrosh, given writers that are actually willing to realistically resolve in-universe problems and not just drive further mindless conflict for the sake of cheap drama—which is the sole reason Garrosh even exists,
    And this, is where you, and others, are wrong, you straight up ignore the ones who start the "mindless conflict" were the alliance, in special Varian, attacking the horde prior the cataclysm, Garrosh was merely a tool to counter Varian agression.

    But of course, everything has to be solved with conflict because you cant tell a story without drama and violence, and therefore every faction leader must be an aggressive and selfish fool, as the current writers have so beautifully cultivated; cue the present deplorable writing.
    That is like, the whole point of the game? conflicts in warcraft? since wc1 is about races going in conflict with each other with violence, we hate each other by a number of reasons and those reasons are not easy ignored

    no one want a story where both factions hand hold together solving everything in peace against the evil guy power rangers style

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    I know your an orc fanatic but everything we know implies Cairne would have won and his son easily tore Garrosh apart with his bare hands in the alt timeline. Sure Cairne was much older but the dude was already like 100 during the 3rd war and still easily fucked shit up.
    Everything we know shows that Cairne had the upperhand and would probably win, but, that is not 100% sure,a gain, plenty of fighters start in the upperhand and lose in the end, that is just normal. When you are older you lose stamina quickly, especially if you start going wild, again, this is also normal.

    Second, the one who killed Garrosh with his barehands, to my knowledge, was baine in an alternative timeline, not Cairne, in that timeline Garrosh killed Cairne too.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Piamonte View Post
    He had,
    Wasnt garrosh going to be a honorable orc, the counter part in the horde of varian, but had to be changed because of gameplay reasons or something?.
    It was, He and Varian were mirrors, but they said "garrosh had to be what we needed at the time", aka, the final villain of the expansion, they even acknowledge later, saying Garrosh in all other timelines was a hero of the horde, and just in this one he went bad.

  5. #45
    No thrall means no garry, no mop, no wod, no legion, no bfa.
    Probs world peace till sylvanas kickstarts SL

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post

    Everything we know shows that Cairne had the upperhand and would probably win, but, that is not 100% sure,a gain, plenty of fighters start in the upperhand and lose in the end, that is just normal. When you are older you lose stamina quickly, especially if you start going wild, again, this is also normal.

    Second, the one who killed Garrosh with his barehands, to my knowledge, was baine in an alternative timeline, not Cairne, in that timeline Garrosh killed Cairne too.
    Yeah I said it was alt Baine who killed him by literally tearing him apart just because he was pissed he killed his dad. He didn't just strangle or beat him to death he fucking tore Garrosh apart like he was paper. The dude that got captured by centaurs and spent most of his time doing diplomatic stuff and it wasn't even a timeline where he got super saiyan powers it was just an average joe Baine who got pissed. Cairne was a beast even when he was a hundred.

  7. #47
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Yeah I said it was alt Baine who killed him by literally tearing him apart just because he was pissed he killed his dad. He didn't just strangle or beat him to death he fucking tore Garrosh apart like he was paper. The dude that got captured by centaurs and spent most of his time doing diplomatic stuff and it wasn't even a timeline where he got super saiyan powers it was just an average joe Baine who got pissed. Cairne was a beast even when he was a hundred.
    Baine was much younger than Cairne, faster and stronger, he is just a massive dumbass in this timeline. That is different from the Cairne fight, that again, he had the upperhand but, it was not a 100% win

    We Also don't even know if that was literally verbatim, if he indeed "tore in half like a paper", it could be just a way of saying, cause honestly, that is not physically possible, Garrosh was way bigger than the average orc, if taurens could do that with orcs then the horde would never lose a war

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Piamonte View Post
    No, we cant, because we need someone to take the mantle of earth warder for enough time so that person can use the dragon soul against deathwing and without the dragon soul deathwing wins.
    I don't see why you think Thrall is innately required for this.

    edit:

    Hell if you want to talk about inherent power level required... Malfurion could step up and take this spot. He's al;ready a planet defender one man destruction force in his own right and that's without bringing in the dead elves to do his bidding. Mcguffin shenanigans can be passed around to whoever is available. Thrall being a shaman in the earthen ring doesn't mean he's required to be the Earth Warder.
    Last edited by mickybrighteyes; 2021-07-31 at 06:12 AM.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    I don't see why you think Thrall is innately required for this.

    edit:

    Hell if you want to talk about inherent power level required... Malfurion could step up and take this spot. He's al;ready a planet defender one man destruction force in his own right and that's without bringing in the dead elves to do his bidding. Mcguffin shenanigans can be passed around to whoever is available. Thrall being a shaman in the earthen ring doesn't mean he's required to be the Earth Warder.
    You dont get it, is not just about power, he was the world shaman (best shaman in the world), he had a special affinity with the earth element, he had the trust of the aspects, he could endure being the earth warder (its really painful) there is 4 expansions of dungeons telling you how important is thrall, if thrall isnt there, we lose and Endtime happens, as simple as that.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    The reason the Alliance began "crushing" and attacking the Horde is because the Horde were the instigators under Garrosh. Without Garrosh being promoted, it never would have blown up into all-out war.

    Hell, night elves were on cold but diplomatic relations with the orcs until the Twilight's Hammer sabotaged it and Garrosh blew the diplomatic agreement in Theramore spectacularly. The Alliance and Horde came within a hair of finally diplomatically reaching a truce so many times only for some dumbass on one side to ruin it.
    I don't blame you for thinking this. But thing is that Horde and Alliance were both butting heads throughout Wrath of the Lich King's storyline. Some of the quests were removed (I think the reason stated was phasing causing issues or some such bullshit) but the canon was never addressed as altered. In the Wrathgate event quest where both factions go to retake the Undercity from Putress/Varimathras Varian jumps the gun and declares war on the horde and attacks Thrall. After this point is when Garrosh starts taking action against the Alliance (i.e. the eventual Icecrown daily/zone quests and the tournament events with the final confrontation of the expantion being the gunship battle). Garrosh was appointed Warchief AFTER the war was declared, thus it makes little sense to say that it woulnd't have happened if Garrosh was never promoted.

    As for Theramore. I think diplomatic relations were beyond salvageable when it was opening the second front on the war in Kalimdor and fielding the forces invading into Stonetalon and those that attempted invading Mulgore... not to mention the sailors landing in Durotar.


    This particular time... teh dumbass ruining the peace was an angry hot head with a blood elf hairstyle. It's almost amazing how they turned Varian into a diplomatic and all around GREAT leader in over the next couple expansions after Wrath.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Baine was much younger than Cairne, faster and stronger, he is just a massive dumbass in this timeline. That is different from the Cairne fight, that again, he had the upperhand but, it was not a 100% win

    We Also don't even know if that was literally verbatim, if he indeed "tore in half like a paper", it could be just a way of saying, cause honestly, that is not physically possible, Garrosh was way bigger than the average orc, if taurens could do that with orcs then the horde would never lose a war
    Baine wasn't really that much of a warrior like his dad. Just because someone is younger doesn't mean they are stronger.

    They wouldn't have said tore him apart if he didn't actually do it....

    The Horde isn't just fighting the Alliance in fist fights.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Piamonte View Post
    You dont get it, is not just about power, he was the world shaman (best shaman in the world), he had a special affinity with the earth element, he had the trust of the aspects, he could endure being the earth warder (its really painful) there is 4 expansions of dungeons telling you how important is thrall, if thrall isnt there, we lose and Endtime happens, as simple as that.
    And I'm telling you, Thrall's presence as a mortal among demigods wasn't required. He could be replaced by any sufficiantly charged being... Hell they could have pulled a Kalecgos and grabbed one of the handful of black dragons that seemed to just be hanging out for no reason... Like Wrathion, maybe Ebonhorn made manifest (like 3 expacs early but still he was canonically active at the time period because... reasons) a dragon in outland or the ones at the black dragonshrine. As for other 'demigods' Malfurion is a sufficiently powerful entity who can tap into the power of the earth, forest, and whatever calls the planet home. Thrall got the spotlight moreso because he's a fan favorite and the OG hero of everyone. You can say "well the story says we need him therefore he's amazing!" but this is a thread where we're talking about how he's not there for the stories and pondering how they'd be different.

    IMO there's at least 5 characters they can shove in where Thrall would be. Maybe a Titan, maybe a dragon or a wild god... maybe pull a retarded legion/BFA where we're the one channelling the kamehameha blast instead

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    And I'm telling you, Thrall's presence as a mortal among demigods wasn't required. He could be replaced by any sufficiantly charged being... Hell they could have pulled a Kalecgos and grabbed one of the handful of black dragons that seemed to just be hanging out for no reason... Like Wrathion, maybe Ebonhorn made manifest (like 3 expacs early but still he was canonically active at the time period because... reasons) a dragon in outland or the ones at the black dragonshrine. As for other 'demigods' Malfurion is a sufficiently powerful entity who can tap into the power of the earth, forest, and whatever calls the planet home. Thrall got the spotlight moreso because he's a fan favorite and the OG hero of everyone. You can say "well the story says we need him therefore he's amazing!" but this is a thread where we're talking about how he's not there for the stories and pondering how they'd be different.

    IMO there's at least 5 characters they can shove in where Thrall would be. Maybe a Titan, maybe a dragon or a wild god... maybe pull a retarded legion/BFA where we're the one channelling the kamehameha blast instead
    I think you are trolling or you are being obnoxious for the sake of it.

    The lore tells you it had to be thrall, it was a job for the best shaman in the world and you say a druid could do it just the same?? What??

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Piamonte View Post
    I think you are trolling or you are being obnoxious for the sake of it.

    The lore tells you it had to be thrall, it was a job for the best shaman in the world and you say a druid could do it just the same?? What??
    You're saying because you think the story called for the best shaman... I'm saying any sufficiently charged being could have done it and whoever writing wanted a reason to rope in a fan favorite character.

    There is literally no reason the earth warder has to be a shaman. "but it has EARTH in the title!" And? That's why the speaker for Azeroth is a warrior.

    edit:

    Every major storyline in the game tries to rope in an easily recognized character to push at the helm. You're arguing that because Thrall was prominent therefore he was vital. I'm saying that they could have literally wrote in any character and given them the same bullshit trials and side story and gotten the results they wanted. Why do I say this? Because thrall wasn't chanelling EARTH ELEMENTS with the purified demon soul....


    Last edited by mickybrighteyes; 2021-07-31 at 07:17 AM.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    You're saying because you think the story called for the best shaman... I'm saying any sufficiently charged being could have done it and whoever writing wanted a reason to rope in a fan favorite character.

    There is literally no reason the earth warder has to be a shaman. "but it has EARTH in the title!" And? That's why the speaker for Azeroth is a warrior.

    edit:

    Every major storyline in the game tries to rope in an easily recognized character to push at the helm. You're arguing that because Thrall was prominent therefore he was vital. I'm saying that they could have literally wrote in any character and given them the same bullshit trials and side story and gotten the results they wanted. Why do I say this? Because thrall wasn't chanelling EARTH ELEMENTS with the purified demon soul....


    yes it had to be a shaman, earth is an element, you dont even know how the logics of the lore works at all.

    It wasnt even a thing of thrall "being prominent" at the time, his importance was teased since vanila with the cavern of time dungeons, seriusly, do you even play the game, you dont seem to know the lore at all.

  16. #56
    Good thread idea. Discounting Dragon Soul and assuming that any suitably capable shaman could do what Thrall did, especially given a big part of Thrall's spirit quest is him getting crap from his future wife on apparently not being shaman enough the main thing would be within the Horde. The Horde doesn't really have any contingencies in case the leader dies without leaving a successor.

    As a few people point out Garrosh might still have ended up as Warchief by default, since while he dun wan it, he'd have the orcish popular backing and was young unlike other candidates like Eitrigg or Saurfang. Without Thrall's endorsement though the same people who clashed with Garrosh despite it would likely just pull the plug entirely. The only reason Vol'jin didn't quit the Horde as early as the Cataclysm 1-5 starting content is because Thrall told him to chill out. This means that with Garrosh being hostile to the Darkspear and the Alliance still being at the doorstep of the Echo Isles the Darkspear might end end up taking Zul's offer and joining the Zandalari the way Vol'jin nearly did in Shadows of the Horde. This'd also make the Zandalari's efforts in 4.1 more successful and in general have big knock-on effects. Cairne is also likely to still challenge Garrosh to Mak'gora right away or simply run his own policy independent of him. Without the legitimacy of being appointed by Thrall the Eastern Horde races are also likely to either go Alliance like the blood elves, or become de-facto independent in Sylvanas's case who might simply refuse to go to war in Gilneas. The Horde would probably collapse as a result with Varian absorbing some (The blood elves, tauren) and clearing up others (the Forsaken, the Orcish Horde).

    The other candidate I can see stepping in is Cairne. He was ready to take leadership in issuing Mak'gora and is a driven leader. I see him being reasonably accepted on a personal level by the orcs, more so than Vol'jin would be, but his policies would be a mess. The tauren don't have material reasons to go to war and only the dwarves are actively belligerent in their midst. Cairne would likely sue for peace with Varian in light of the Cataclysm and he's also unlikely to stand for what Sylvanas is up to, far more so than Thrall or Garrosh, given one's handsoff approach and the other needing the Forsaken for war. Cairne doesn't need them and pushed them for inclusion on the basis of something they never intended which was a cure for undeath. His strong stand on this and his proven apathy for the orcs' shit state at the time is likely to quickly alienate them. We might see a reverse, with Garrosh challenging Cairne to Mak'gora at what he'd see as capitulation, ending up with Magatha either poisoning his axe again, leading to a scenario like the above, or with Magatha openly supporting Garrosh when Cairne begins to move for peace to both urge him to act against Cairne and to set herself up for leadership of Thunder Bluff. Either way, civil war would also be inevitable, just with different sides and with the Alliance backing Cairne.

    They're really interesting scenarios, but it's extremely unlikely the Horde would continue to exist in any circumstances except the ones that actually happened. Thrall allowing a peaceful transition of power is pretty much the only thing that kept it from collapse. It's possible that if it did it would be far more Orcish, possible with more of a WC2 composition + Goblins. In the event of a Cairne civil war victory, it might also reformat itself as something closer to the way the tauren tribes work, with one chieftain and a council of other lesser chieftains. It'd be tighter knit and likely have tauren, trolls, orcs and ogres as members with Cairne as leader.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arikara View Post
    But of course, everything has to be solved with conflict because you cant tell a story without drama and violence, and therefore every faction leader must be an aggressive and selfish fool, as the current writers have so beautifully cultivated; cue the present deplorable writing.
    Facetious, but completely correct. A story without conflict is no story. Drama and violence are the meat and potatoes of pulp fantasy storytelling, which is what Warcraft is. The primary engagement and purpose of the game is violence between different factions, playable and otherwise. It should and does have its problems resolved by violence. Characters that clash with each other and have differences in values and material interests are worthwhile. Characters who agree on everything and would exist in a vegetative state without outside factors are not. The Kalimdor Horde was a storytelling wasteland for this reason and the tauren and trolls only became distinct from orcs when the orcs themselves had much of their pre-WC3 identity restored, starting with Vanilla but culminating with Wrath and Cataclysm. Homogenization and pushing for messages of world peace the game neither can nor should push are at the root of nearly all of its storytelling problems.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-07-31 at 05:41 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    conflicts in warcraft? since wc1 is about races going in conflict with each other with violence, we hate each other by a number of reasons and those reasons are not easy ignored
    Speak for yourself. The faction conflict should have ended at Twilight of the Gods, and Garrosh should have died at Wrathgate instead of Dranosh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Facetious, but completely correct. A story without conflict is no story. Drama and violence are the meat and potatoes of pulp fantasy storytelling, which is what Warcraft is. The primary engagement and purpose of the game is violence between different factions, playable and otherwise. It should and does have its problems resolved by violence. Characters that clash with each other and have differences in values and material interests are worthwhile. Characters who agree on everything and would exist in a vegetative state without outside factors are not. The Kalimdor Horde was a storytelling wasteland for this reason and the tauren and trolls only became distinct from orcs when the orcs themselves had much of their pre-WC3 identity restored, starting with Vanilla but culminating with Wrath and Cataclysm. Homogenization and pushing for messages of world peace the game neither can nor should push are at the root of nearly all of its storytelling problems.
    Conflict is not in itself a problem, but it becomes a problem when the writers repeatedly ruin established characters by having them regress or otherwise take absolutely stupid actions all for the sake of justifying yet another bout of the same old regurtitated conflict so that we can keep running in circles. Drama is good, but must be used sparingly, else it becomes the loathsome eyerolly mess that we've been witness to the last two expansions. Violence is at the core of the game, but violence with no direction is pointless.

    Is it too much to ask for a plot that moves forward instead of one that only ever runs in place or slides backwards? We've regressed to the point of saturday morning cartoon villainy.

  18. #58
    Well, you know everything that he put into place or happened because of him being warchief and then not being it? Basically all that would be different. Because it wouldn't have happened.

    You don't have to be Stephen Hawking to figure this one out, people.
    Still calling them out, one infraction at a time.

  19. #59
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    And I'm telling you, Thrall's presence as a mortal among demigods wasn't required. He could be replaced by any sufficiantly charged being...
    if hthey could, they woul not even think in bringing an orc in the first place, they would go for malfurion as first option

    they literally went to him because no one else could do the job.

    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Baine wasn't really that much of a warrior like his dad. Just because someone is younger doesn't mean they are stronger.
    Baine was, the problem is in this timeline he is a crybaby
    They wouldn't have said tore him apart if he didn't actually do it....
    they say a lot of shit that is not actually verbatim, its the whole point of fantasy to flourish your words, like when they say Garry shout a 'earth-spliting" wr cry, his scream didn't actually split the earth.

    The Horde isn't just fighting the Alliance in fist fights.
    but apparently any fist fighting solve almost everything

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Arikara View Post
    Speak for yourself. The faction conflict should have ended at Twilight of the Gods, and Garrosh should have died at Wrathgate instead of Dranosh. .
    Speak for yourself, you are joining a war game and wanting to change to fit your view.

    If Garrosh died in wrathgate the war would continue because it was varian who started and push forward, again, another one thinking "it was just mean Garrosh" who start the war, while ignore everything the alliance did
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2021-07-31 at 07:46 PM.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    Thrall, I believe is a key character in Shadowlands. We will need him to restore ballance in the Universe. Can't wait for him do do his shaman work.
    Without ever visiting the ancestral planes.

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