What would have happened to the Thrall had died while he was warchief ?

[Piamonte]

Without ever visiting the ancestral planes.

i know this is kinda a joke but shouldnt shamans be able to see a little into the shadowlands considering their conection to the spirits??

[Ivarr]

I think it's the other way around. The Shamans communicate with the spirits that haven't yet departed for the shadowlands.

[Arikara]

If Garrosh died in wrathgate the war would continue because it was varian who started and push forward, again, another one thinking "it was just mean Garrosh" who start the war, while ignore everything the alliance did

no, not really. Let him do that. At least there was an actual good instigating event for that, unlike everything since then

Varian is another fool, not far removed from the foolishness of Garrosh

but at least he mellowed out and actually learned something along the way. Too little too late; he's hardly missed

[Syegfryed]

no, not really. Let him do that. At least there was an actual good instigating event for that, unlike everything since then

Varian is another fool, not far removed from the foolishness of Garrosh

but at least he mellowed out and actually learned something along the way. Too little too late; he's hardly missed

the point ws how Garrosh and Varian were almost mirrors, with Varian actually being way more racist towards the horde, but everyone here make a blind eye for what he did and what the alliance was doing before Garrosh, IE. Attacking the horde races, invading and stealing their land as well. As an example, Dwarves bombarded an entire tauren tribe to get their lands and dig for titan stuff

But unlike most people claim, blizzard isn't biased towards horde, they made Varian a good leader and made Garrosh a villain

[Super Dickmann]

Conflict is not in itself a problem, but it becomes a problem when the writers repeatedly ruin established characters by having them regress or otherwise take absolutely stupid actions all for the sake of justifying yet another bout of the same old regurtitated conflict so that we can keep running in circles. Drama is good, but must be used sparingly, else it becomes the loathsome eyerolly mess that we've been witness to the last two expansions. Violence is at the core of the game, but violence with no direction is pointless.

Is it too much to ask for a plot that moves forward instead of one that only ever runs in place or slides backwards? We've regressed to the point of saturday morning cartoon villainy.

The purpose of the game is to enable this conflict. The faction war and fighting third parties are the two pillars the game is built. Steps that seek to destroy that premise should not be taken because they will always fail purely by virtue that having them stick requires changes that the game either likely can't do, like faction removal, or certainly can't do, like a means of resolving conflict without violence. Warcraft 3 didn't have this problem, for a number of reasons.

For one, the premise was always clear - the very first thing you saw when you booted the game up was a cinematic where an orc and a human are doing their thing and are then interrupted by a demon, showing you where the conflict will be and what the lesson is. For another, the format was extremely tight - it didn't really matter that the WC3 Horde had less lore to it than even the WC2 one did per its manual and a smaller cast because the orcish campaign was a character drama focused on Grom. Thrall, by virtue of being a messiah figure, experiences no arc, he does not change from beginning to end. He begins the story with the full support of all his people except Grom, has nothing to clash with humans about except when they attack him or Grom does so against his orders and doesn't experience any change. He's only moved to circumstances where he can live out what he wanted to do it anyway - we don't have to parse how the Horde under Thrall would manage in Lordaeron where his good intent would be put up against an established human territory who think little of the orcs because Thrall gets a phone call removing him from that conflict and handing him a land on a silver platter, whereafter everyone who does have an issue with him dies in unrelated events. This is fine in WC3 because the story is very explicitly not about orcs and humans, but about everyone coming together. Once they do and they fight Satan, the stories of all those involved end.

You'll notice that once Grom kills Mannoroth, the orcish story in WC3 ends - the story isn't about Thrall, who's already flawless, but about Grom who has to wrest with what the orcs used to be and who actually does fall to temptation. His redemption rounds out the orcish story. The follow-up story in TFT is literally a bonus campaign because the orcs no longer have any role in the plot, they've solved all their problems and the only story left to tell is of them taming their land and of removing the humans who don't see Thrall as God's gift to the world. A story that is entirely external because there's never any doubt that Thrall is legit or that he can control the Horde it's only about Daelin being unable to recognize this and needing the chop. Tellingly, both of the WC3 stories stem from WC2 because the only elements that can possibly bring the orcs into conflict are from when they were an actual force with desires and goals of their own who had reasons to clash with others. TFT tellingly doesn't try to get water from a stone but instead focuses on Kael, Illidan and the various undead subfactions all of which have reasons to actually get into fights. The game can do this because being an RTS it can put you in the shoes of practically any side at any point. The game also doesn't actually have a problem with the orcs resolving their problem - a happily ever after is fine and it's a good capping off point that works great for what it is.

What it isn't is a recipe for an MMO. An MMO can't show you any side - only the two that are there in its premise, Alliance and Horde. The MMO's premise wasn't that they were going to team up against Satan, it tells you in its own opening about how peace is tenuous and war is soon approaching. An MMO can't wrap a bow on a race the way WC3 did with the orcs and humans, it must continue as a long-form narrative that meshes with the initial premise. An MMO can't have a hero character who everyone must agree with in charge of a race without turning that race passive and boring, which is why it made the wise decision to first refocus humanity on Stormwind and then to sideline Thrall and already tone down his entire race consisting of mini-mes the way it did in WC3 after Grom died. When it did stick with WC3 it showed just hollow the orcs were if one followed that versio - they had no overarching multi-zone story or antagonist the way the humans or Forsaken did. It had no ties with any raid except being good little helpers, like when Thrall tells you to free Moira because it's a good deed, etc.

Garrosh and to a much lesser extent Varian did exist to remove this stale state of affairs that ran counter to what the game existed to provide. The retcons regarding Thrall's relative competence and the fertility of Durotar as well as the relations with the night elves did exist solely to spur more conflict. And those are all good, necessary things. WC3 itself knew that it couldn't really do much more with the WC1-2 orcs so it retconned their backstory and opened room for far more stories. Likewise, by ditching Thrall's most obnoxiously perfect traits and applying some actual realistic political consequences to trying to establish hunter-gatherers in a wasteland the writers opened a vista of conflict. The Wrath-Cataclysm fight or hell, even BFA, may feature Red vs. Blue but they rae fundamentally different wars fought for different reasons to what was in say, WC1 and 2. This is not something that can be said about the fight with Satan, which is always the same and the only thing that varies is the character work put into it. If you want to see a story where the characters get along in harmony to fight Satan, we've got it right now and it's really fucking boring. If you want a story where a character like WC3 Thrall or Jaina is in charge and solves problems peacefully - we also already had it, it was called BFA where the entire world became clones of Anduin and it was also fucking dreadful. The faction conflict as backdrop and addition to conflict against 3rd parties is the heart of Warcraft and anything and everything that diminishes it to push asinine moral messages coincides with the diminishing of the individuality of the races and characters and the narrative as a whole.

[Mehrunes]

I don't see why you think Thrall is innately required for this.

edit:

Hell if you want to talk about inherent power level required... Malfurion could step up and take this spot. He's al;ready a planet defender one man destruction force in his own right and that's without bringing in the dead elves to do his bidding. Mcguffin shenanigans can be passed around to whoever is available. Thrall being a shaman in the earthen ring doesn't mean he's required to be the Earth Warder.

It has nothing about "inherent power levels". A random twerp could use the Dragon Soul. The trick was to make it work against Deathwing as he didn't imbue it with his power. Thrall was required because of his deep connection to the earth and a portion of Azeroth itself. Both of which are related to him being the World Shaman.

And I'm telling you, Thrall's presence as a mortal among demigods wasn't required. He could be replaced by any sufficiantly charged being... Hell they could have pulled a Kalecgos and grabbed one of the handful of black dragons that seemed to just be hanging out for no reason... Like Wrathion, maybe Ebonhorn made manifest (like 3 expacs early but still he was canonically active at the time period because... reasons) a dragon in outland or the ones at the black dragonshrine. As for other 'demigods' Malfurion is a sufficiently powerful entity who can tap into the power of the earth, forest, and whatever calls the planet home. Thrall got the spotlight moreso because he's a fan favorite and the OG hero of everyone. You can say "well the story says we need him therefore he's amazing!" but this is a thread where we're talking about how he's not there for the stories and pondering how they'd be different.

You telling this doesn't make you correct. It only makes it clear you haven't read Twilight of the Aspects of Charge of the Aspects. The part about just grabbing a black dragon is particularly telling, because the Dragon Soul not working on Deathwing had nothing to do with him being a black dragon and everything with him being the Earth Warder. On top of that the Dragon Soul rips the bodies of normal dragons apart and even Deathwing was partially damaged by it, to the point he needed to imbue himself with metal plates. And Malfurion doesn't tap into the earth, he taps into nature.

Also, this is just not how alternate stories work. That Thrall was required to make the Dragon Soul against Deathwing is simply canon and as such it wouldn't just suddenly stop applying here. The the point of divergence is simply Thrall's dying, not altering the nature of various powers in Warcraft.

You're saying because you think the story called for the best shaman... I'm saying any sufficiently charged being could have done it and whoever writing wanted a reason to rope in a fan favorite character.

You may be saying it, but you're not substantiating it with anything whatsoever. And just because a writer wrote what they wrote to rope in Thrall doesn't magically make what they wrote not canon.

There is literally no reason the earth warder has to be a shaman. "but it has EARTH in the title!" And? That's why the speaker for Azeroth is a warrior.

Yeah, Charge of the Aspects going on about how Thrall has tapped into the earth like no other Shaman has before, that the earth is a part of him and he a part of it and that he's mortal who has tapped into the essence of the earth which makes him the fulcrum by which the Dragon Soul could be turned against its maker totes legit indicate there's no reason the Earth Warder has to be a Shaman.

Every major storyline in the game tries to rope in an easily recognized character to push at the helm. You're arguing that because Thrall was prominent therefore he was vital. I'm saying that they could have literally wrote in any character and given them the same bullshit trials and side story and gotten the results they wanted. Why do I say this? Because thrall wasn't chanelling EARTH ELEMENTS with the purified demon soul....

This is just nonsense. You're conflating OOG reasons for why a certain character is picked for a certain story with what the story written around it after the fact is. Blizzard could have picked a different prominent character other than Thrall? Grand revelation you got there, Sherlock. But that doesn't mean Thrall was vital just because he was prominent and no one is arguing that, especially not @Piamonte in what you were quoting.

Because you're ignoring the part where Blizzard didn't just end things at picking a prominent character at random but then wrote a story justifying the need for that specific character in-story. Which in this case had squat to do with Thrall being prominent, because character prominence isn't a thing in-lore. It had everything to do with him being an exceptional Shaman. And since that's the story we actually got, that's the story that has to serve as the basis for this discussion. Because the "insightful" Blizzard could have written a different story if they picked Malfurion for the role makes any discussion about the lore meaningless.

And your picture shows that you're lacking knowledge even about the raid itself. Because in this picture Thrall is simply channeling the Dragon Soul itself. Which isn't what he was needed for, as any mortal could safely use it. He was needed to make it work against Deathwing, because without Earth Warder's essence in it this laser you posted here would still have done nothing to Deathwing. You know, the part where he and the Aspects channel their power into the Dragon Soul before both Ultraxion and Spine of Deathwing. And it just so happens that in those cases he is channeling the elements.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

What would have happened if Thrall had been killed by the Lich King during WOTLK or if he had been assassinated by the Twilight Hammer or other assassins during or before the Cataclysm, though without having named Garrosh or a potential heir to become warchief should he die ?

One of the key reasons why Thrall stepped down was due to public pressure (namely by everyone except the Tauren) to go to war with the Alliance, and Thrall didn't want to go to war. Because the Horde are war cultists. Thrall gave in and appointed the much more popular Garrosh who appealed to the Horde's walt cultist sensibilities and promised victory over the Alliance.

If Thrall died before having appointed Garrosh, honestly I think Garrosh would have likely become Warchief anyways due to his popularity. Cairne was wiser and should have held seniority and probably should have become the next leader of the Horde, but alas, such is the way of fascist regimes like the Horde.

Everything will probably play out the same as in canon. The Aspects, the Cenarion Circle, the Kirin Tor, and the Earthen Ring would have likely defeated Deathwing even without Thrall. The major difference is how the Horde's defeat at the end of Siege of Orgrimmar plays out. Since Thrall won't be there to point people towards Vol'jin, likely what winds up happening is that there is no clear leader in the immediate aftermath of Garrosh's execution in the Underhold, meaning that the Alliance probably just sweeps in and dismantles the Horde. I'd imagine Varian would have appointed Vol'jin and Saurfang (instead of Thrall) to go around telling Horde people to stand down.

If WoD happens in this timeline, then it'd pretty much mostly be the Alliance involved in alternate Draenor. I guess Saurfang and Rexxar might be brought back to try to tell the Orcish tribes to stand down.

[Piamonte]

The Aspects, the Cenarion Circle, the Kirin Tor, and the Earthen Ring would have likely defeated Deathwing even without Thrall

There are several people here that have given several arguments as to why this is not true.

[mickybrighteyes]

Yeah, Charge of the Aspects going on about how Thrall has tapped into the earth like no other Shaman has before, that the earth is a part of him and he a part of it and that he's mortal who has tapped into the essence of the earth which makes him the fulcrum by which the Dragon Soul could be turned against its maker totes legit indicate there's no reason the Earth Warder has to be a Shaman.

"tapped into [...] like no shaman before" Could be a compliment to his prowess as a shaman or just diverging away from typical behavior... I'm going to guess when the Aspect of Dreams is backing you up in attempts to commune with anything you're gonna go far too.

Another part about the mess on top of the alternate realities, time travel tribulations (and time hopping to get other objectives)... we also have

Through the blinding pain, Thrall realized that he now possessed incredible strength. The weight of Azeroth was his to command. Was Deathwing so arrogant that he had given him this advantage?

So all the posturing and set up where thrall is supposed to be the chosen one because of his shaman training and some timey wimey BS on teh aspects part with the Dreamer herself providing support in his communion and Deathwing straight up gives him a bit of Earth Aspect after a bit of talk no jutsu....

And it's less because he's a shaman and more because Deathwing thought Thrall was a pawn in the Aspects games being fooled into the titans business as a "you know what? here try it on and see!"

Thus: IMO. Even without Thrall the Aspects would prolly scout out another candidate, given them the time travel weekend trip to another reality, and suffieicntly ticked off Deathwing enough to give litterally ANYONE a little taste of the Weight of the World power boost for the Dragonsoul End Game strategy.

edit:

Yes at the end the other aspects say they need thrall... he has the power in him at that point... a power that Thrall was given by deathwing because they argued over whether it was a gift of a curse.

[Piamonte]

"tapped into [...] like no shaman before" Could be a compliment to his prowess as a shaman or just diverging away from typical behavior... I'm going to guess when the Aspect of Dreams is backing you up in attempts to commune with anything you're gonna go far too.

Another part about the mess on top of the alternate realities, time travel tribulations (and time hopping to get other objectives)... we also have

So all the posturing and set up where thrall is supposed to be the chosen one because of his shaman training and some timey wimey BS on teh aspects part with the Dreamer herself providing support in his communion and Deathwing straight up gives him a bit of Earth Aspect after a bit of talk no jutsu....

And it's less because he's a shaman and more because Deathwing thought Thrall was a pawn in the Aspects games being fooled into the titans business as a "you know what? here try it on and see!"

Thus: IMO. Even without Thrall the Aspects would prolly scout out another candidate, given them the time travel weekend trip to another reality, and suffieicntly ticked off Deathwing enough to give litterally ANYONE a little taste of the Weight of the World power boost for the Dragonsoul End Game strategy.

edit:

Yes at the end the other aspects say they need thrall... he has the power in him at that point... a power that Thrall was given by deathwing because they argued over whether it was a gift of a curse.

i dont know how anything you wrote disproves that it had to be a shaman, not only that but a powerful shaman with the trust of the aspects.

Also the time travel isnt a mess, is part of a story set up since Vanilla with the cavern of time dungeons, they try to kill thrall precisely to avoid this moment.

Here are several quotes from the "Charge of the aspects" short story that proves what im saying.

Ysera talking about thrall connection to earth:

"She was amazed by his level of focus, but she knew that it had not come easily. During the first attempt to mend Nordrassil, Deathwing's servants had ambushed Thrall and sundered his mind, body, and spirit into the four elements—earth, air, fire, and water. Through the work of a mortal hero and Thrall's mate, Aggra, he had been saved. Ever since that time, Thrall had displayed a newfound connection with the earth that went beyond mere communication with the elements. He could feel Azeroth as if it were a part of himself, conjoining with the world in a miraculous way. Ysera believed that in the process of reforming his spirit, the essence of Azeroth had been taken into him."

"All his years of dedication as a shaman had led to this extraordinary ability to join with the earth."



other quotes that shows thrall unique connection to earth:

"The chaotic earth elementals, whom he had for so long struggled to calm, embraced him—welcomed him—as one of their own."

"He has communed with the earth in a manner that no other shaman has before. The earth is a part of him, and he a part of it"



And this is deathwing taking away the power he had given thrall:

"The black Aspect stood motionless as Thrall approached. An instant before his fist plowed into Deathwing's chest, the weight of Azeroth—and all of its might—was ripped away from the orc's grasp."



Kalecgos about thrall connection to earth:

"Thrall, a mortal who has tapped into the essence of the earth, the blue Aspect pondered. Not long ago, the orc had helped bind Earth to Kalec, Ysera, Nozdormu, and Alexstrasza, allowing them to combine their powers and stave off an attack by Deathwing's servants. At that time, the shaman had acted merely as a conduit to Azeroth. Now, however, he was much more than that. He was the answer... the fulcrum by which the Dragon Soul could be turned against its maker."


This is Kalec saying that only thrall could do it because he has a part of Azeroth essence, that essence was not given by deathwing but was earned by thrall in a previous point in the lore:

"But only with you at our side," Kalec added. "The artifact was imbued with the essences of the four Aspects, but Deathwing never imparted his into it. If we are to use this weapon to defeat him, we must infuse it with the power of the Earth-Warder. You, Thrall, possess a portion, however small, of that exact thing: the essence of Azeroth itself."

[mickybrighteyes]

i dont know how anything you wrote disproves that it had to be a shaman, not only that but a powerful shaman with the trust of the aspects.

This is a circular logic imo.. he got the trust and was a shaman therefore it HAD to be him and had to be a shaman... I disagree.

Also the time travel isnt a mess, is part of a story set up since Vanilla with the cavern of time dungeons, they try to kill thrall precisely to avoid this moment.

Time travel is inherently a mess IMO because of shit like this... The future targets someone therefore they are important because the future targeted them...

Nevermind that time travel mechanics can basically take an entire Hero's Journey arc and remove it from teh plot to have the hero reinserted whenever is required.... I don't care that Time travel is canon as that doesn't make it less cheesy or not.

It's made worse by the fact that we have thrall crossing into alternate realities as part of this growth which largely feels like power leveling a dude outside the bounds of reality to set them up... So we have a hand picked agent of the aspects groomed for a roll effectively.

Also this is from the charge of aspect short story:

"She was amazed by his level of focus, but she knew that it had not come easily. During the first attempt to mend Nordrassil, Deathwing's servants had ambushed Thrall and sundered his mind, body, and spirit into the four elements—earth, air, fire, and water. Through the work of a mortal hero and Thrall's mate, Aggra, he had been saved. Ever since that time, Thrall had displayed a newfound connection with the earth that went beyond mere communication with the elements. He could feel Azeroth as if it were a part of himself, conjoining with the world in a miraculous way. Ysera believed that in the process of reforming his spirit, the essence of Azeroth had been taken into him."

"All his years of dedication as a shaman had led to this extraordinary ability to join with the earth."

"The chaotic earth elementals, whom he had for so long struggled to calm, embraced him—welcomed him—as one of their own."

don't see this in Charge of the Aspects Looking it up I get sent to Dawn instead and see the short story listed as prologue.

[Piamonte]

This is a circular logic imo.. he got the trust and was a shaman therefore it HAD to be him and had to be a shaman... I disagree.


Time travel is inherently a mess IMO because of shit like this... The future targets someone therefore they are important because the future targeted them...

Nevermind that time travel mechanics can basically take an entire Hero's Journey arc and remove it from teh plot to have the hero reinserted whenever is required.... I don't care that Time travel is canon as that doesn't make it less cheesy or not.

It's made worse by the fact that we have thrall crossing into alternate realities as part of this growth which largely feels like power leveling a dude outside the bounds of reality to set them up... So we have a hand picked agent of the aspects groomed for a roll effectively.


don't see this in Charge of the Aspects Looking it up I get sent to Dawn instead and see the short story listed as prologue.

i have edited my previous response several times adding more and more quotes that proves that thrall was the only one who could use the dragon soul.

don't see this in Charge of the Aspects Looking it up

Keep looking, it is there.

[mickybrighteyes]

Keep looking, it is there.

Gonna have to ask for what Charge of the Aspects your pulling because it's not in the one I found.

I find a story that starts with Nozdormu meeting some scouts and getting a mission report. Transitions to Thrall and Ysera sharing a moment as Thrall is trying to commune with the earth. IDEA: dragon soul is a weapon like no other so FLASH BACK interum... Deathwing confronts Thrall "here lies the truth of the world," (stated by deathwing I assume as it turned into:

"The arrogance of shaman never ceases to amaze me," the black Aspect rumbled, his voice like two immense boulders shattering against one another. "You seek to tame a power that by rights is not yours to command... a power beyond your comprehension."

back and forth on about whether it's a gift or curse... there is no mention of a prior attack by deathwing to this point in Charge of the Aspects so I assume that THIS is the fight they have where Thrall emerges with a deeper understanding and affinity with the earth. and what's more he's GIVEN the thing he was trying to commune/shaman his way into getting by DEATHWING.

So Thrall, chosen by Nozdormu...vetted by 4 of the 5 aspects, granted a boon by the 5th seems to be the chosen one entirely because of his interactions with the aspects.

Again. Since they fly through time past and present to make sure he's good for the job and the bronze flight still is empowered I feel they can do this with literally anyone. They could even go find the tablets of the earth and try and work them in somehow or reality hop (since they were doing that as part of vetting thrall) and find another reality's chosen one... and have them be the pawn to piss off deathwing enough to give up a portion of his power.

[Piamonte]

Gonna have to ask for what Charge of the Aspects your pulling because it's not in the one I found.

I find a story that starts with Nozdormu meeting some scouts and getting a mission report. Transitions to Thrall and Ysera sharing a moment as Thrall is trying to commune with the earth. IDEA: dragon soul is a weapon like no other so FLASH BACK interum... Deathwing confronts Thrall "here lies the truth of the world," (stated by deathwing I assume as it turned into:

back and forth on about whether it's a gift or curse... there is no mention of a prior attack by deathwing to this point in Charge of the Aspects so I assume that THIS is the fight they have where Thrall emerges with a deeper understanding and affinity with the earth. and what's more he's GIVEN the thing he was trying to commune/shaman his way into getting by DEATHWING.

So Thrall, chosen by Nozdormu...vetted by 4 of the 5 aspects, granted a boon by the 5th seems to be the chosen one entirely because of his interactions with the aspects.

Again. Since they fly through time past and present to make sure he's good for the job and the bronze flight still is empowered I feel they can do this with literally anyone. They could even go find the tablets of the earth and try and work them in somehow or reality hop (since they were doing that as part of vetting thrall) and find another reality's chosen one... and have them be the pawn to piss off deathwing enough to give up a portion of his power.

here is the link i used, it was the first click on Google:

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/st...of-the-aspects

But to be honest, i think it is pointless, i think you are being obtuse for the sake of being obtuse, i already posted several quotes in my previous response that shows without a doubt that it had to be a shaman and it had to be thrall. There is even one quote that shows Deathwing took away the powers he gave Thrall shortly after the event, but you dismissed it altogether. Here it is again, just in case:

"The black Aspect stood motionless as Thrall approached. An instant before his fist plowed into Deathwing's chest, the weight of Azeroth—and all of its might—was ripped away from the orc's grasp."