View Poll Results: Do you like the Shadowlands story?

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  • I like it

    46 12.07%
  • I do not like it

    261 68.50%
  • Indifferent

    74 19.42%
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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by clexecute View Post

    People are upset because Shadowlands has retconned a large part of Warcraft's roots. Warcraft 3 has pretty much been retconned. The entire reason Sylvanas had an anger towards Arthas was because he killed her and most the high elves going to res Kel Thuzad under the instruction of dreadlords/Nerzhul. Her entire story arc started with vengeance.

    Fast forward 20 years and here we are, what actually happened was the Jailer was controlling the dreadlords who were controlling Nerzhul who was controlling Arthas who was controlling KT. So in actuality the Jailer is responsible for Sylvanas' situation, but she still stands by him in a raid with Nerzhul AND KT in it. She is now allies with the person who orchestrated it, the person who dictated how it would happen, and the person who was resurrected as a result of her death.
    Exactly this.

    We are talking about absurdity.

    It’s not just low quality story. We could get past that, every franchise has its ups and downs.

    We are presented with an abomination of a story, which without reason not just “retcons”.. retcon is not the right word.. SL lore is not merely “Retroactive continuity”

    Retcons would be allowed by the community if they at least made sense and respected our intelligence.

    Right now we have lore that DOES NOT MAKE SENSE., thereby destroying previous lore by removing any sense of continuity.

    And the reason is because current writers just want to USE/ABUSE the “cool” factors/characters of the established lore just to prop-up their poorly made new creations.

  2. #202
    Bloodsail Admiral Cloudmaker's Avatar
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    I loved Kyrian quest line how it is teaching compassion. Maybe this is what we all need in the current times in the place where our world is now. Now I know that joining Kyrians was the right choice for me since the very beginning no mater if it was good for a frost mage spec I played. All I wanted is to stay close to my fluffy clouds! Now I am casting supernovas while bathing in Arcane radiance of the endless Cosmos! What a perfect place to be! Say what you will about the story but I love it.
    #SaveAlgalon

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    TBC writing makes SL look good.
    TBC writing didn't get in the way of enjoying the rest of the content, that's all it required to do.

    WoW needs to be a compelling world, not a compelling story. Instead, WoW tries to be something it's not. It's not supposed to be a TV show where a few protagonists experience riveting plot twists. All players ask for is a place to escape into, away from reality. That's the value of an MMO. An immersive world with lots of shenanigans going on. At no point do protagonists need to save the universe for this to happen.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    I loved Kyrian quest line how it is teaching compassion. Maybe this is what we all need in the current times in the place where our world is now. Now I know that joining Kyrians was the right choice for me since the very beginning no mater if it was good for a frost mage spec I played. All I wanted is to stay close to my fluffy clouds! Now I am casting supernovas while bathing in Arcane radiance of the endless Cosmos! What a perfect place to be! Say what you will about the story but I love it.
    So how did you feel about the Kyrian quest to go foster a better relationship with the Forsworn... by beating them until they submitted?

  5. #205
    Bloodsail Admiral Cloudmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    So how did you feel about the Kyrian quest to go foster a better relationship with the Forsworn... by beating them until they submitted?
    Yea that felt kinda weird. I have a slight belief that basically all Covenants including Brokers and Attendants are hiding something that isn’t nice. We will find out.
    #SaveAlgalon

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    Yea that felt kinda weird. I have a slight belief that basically all Covenants including Brokers and Attendants are hiding something that isn’t nice. We will find out.
    Honestly I don't think any of the covenants are hiding anything. It's just that we're glossing over the implications of some very blatant details. Kyrian and the losingh memories/identity was a weird point when SL info was leaking and spurred some discussion around these parts then. Venthyr shenanigans had some hidden info that was very much a part of the storyline in the region and for their campaign quests and bled into other storylines. The Necrolords are very upfront with Might makes Right. The wild hunt is almost the MOST metal of the 4 main groups with how they culled their own anima sources to sustain their realm.

    That said I'm expecting more revelations on how these cosmic entities are going to manage lesser beings.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    So how did you feel about the Kyrian quest to go foster a better relationship with the Forsworn... by beating them until they submitted?
    This really sounds like Blizz idea of a healthy relationship...

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Aliven View Post
    This really sounds like Blizz idea of a healthy relationship...
    This... really puts a spin on things... the quest is called "Rebuilding Faith"

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    lmfao you had arthas like fucking team rocket from pokemon throughout northrend and THIS is the worst it has been?

    "Me failing to destroy you was part of my master plan all along! ahahaha"
    I'd love to have been in the writers room when they planned out their arc for WotLK.

    "Then the players, after beating down the Scourge everywhere, winning non-stop, holding a renaissance fair in Icecrown, and actually fighting more Horde / Alliance faction war in airships AS they ascend the citadel (because the Lich King has been that little of a threat) finally reach Arthas."

    "You mean the Lich King that's a merging of Arthas and Ner'zhul, right? Cause we made a big deal at the end of the RTS where he and Ner'zhul say they are one."

    "No, we'll be killing off the Ner'zhul half off-screen, but won't explain it in-game, because explanations are boring. We might devote one page of an out-of-game book to it. Anyway, after all that, the players get to Arthas, and then he reveals he was letting them win the whole time and he one-shots the raid dead. Then the Light performs a Deus Ex Machina, freeing Tirion, who was frozen, shattering Frostmourne, releasing Terenas, who resurrects the players while Arthas is helpless, thereby making the players win. But someone needs to be a new Lich King, so we make Bolvar into that, and it's a big secret to the world that "THERE MUST ALWAYS BE A LICH KING." Only the players and Tirion are supposed to know, as no one else was up there. Muradin almost will have made it up, and will have talked a bunch about confronting Arthas in the airship fight, but he'll get tired and take a nap with the vendors halfway up."

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    In terms of lore/story SL may be worse than WoD. Hard to really decipher what does more damage to the authenticity of characters and the setting: minimizing the concept of death, or implicating endless duplications.
    This is definitely the strongest ground on which to attack SL as worse than prior expansions. With character plotting, I feel like it's par for the course (but at least we get more fun delivery today, with more cinematics and more voice acting, where sometimes the voice actors do such a good job, that they make bad dialogue sound okay.) But minimizing death, and WoD implicating parallel versions of everyone, definitely vie with each other as the biggest mistake in handling the world-setting they've made.

    Still, I'm enjoying it. I just tailor my expectations around, "treat this with the seriousness of a comic book movie."

  10. #210
    Actually amused that people are -now- surprised that WoW's story has always been cheesy, absurd and constantly contradicting itself?

    Don't take it too seriously. You'll feel better about it.

  11. #211
    The writing is objectively terrible for these major developments. The lead ins are great, but the resolutions are so wtf.

    Sylvanas commits mass genocide, but it's going to be ok now because we forgive little oopsies like that? It's in the past, what's a few hundred thousand nelves between enemies and plot advancement? Even Elune forgave her after sitting back and watching and allowing her "favored children" to be butchered because she was attempting to serve the greater good while oh, plot twist, NOPE. And now there are sads. Not anger, only sads.

    Oh, and Anduin is now Lich King 2.0 because MIND CONTROL. ISN'T IT GREAT EVERYONE, THE LICH KING IS BACK! ...except not at all because Anduin's agency was taken from him as he was imprisoned and tortured until he broke so there really aren't any parallels at all except that they both have stupid skull covered armor and badass rune swords.

    ...I'd love to know how anyone thought the above two plot points were good to follow.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by SolasSlyM3 View Post
    The writing is objectively terrible for these major developments. The lead ins are great, but the resolutions are so wtf.

    Sylvanas commits mass genocide, but it's going to be ok now because we forgive little oopsies like that? It's in the past, what's a few hundred thousand nelves between enemies and plot advancement? Even Elune forgave her after sitting back and watching and allowing her "favored children" to be butchered because she was attempting to serve the greater good while oh, plot twist, NOPE. And now there are sads. Not anger, only sads.

    Oh, and Anduin is now Lich King 2.0 because MIND CONTROL. ISN'T IT GREAT EVERYONE, THE LICH KING IS BACK! ...except not at all because Anduin's agency was taken from him as he was imprisoned and tortured until he broke so there really aren't any parallels at all except that they both have stupid skull covered armor and badass rune swords.

    ...I'd love to know how anyone thought the above two plot points were good to follow.
    You know, blizz really want for victims to feel sorry for the abusers. Clearly Sylvanas is traumatized, cant you see?

  13. #213
    I think the massive overarching story is fine and potentially interesting, but how it's implemented on a lower level in terms of execution and expressed to the players is really bad. The in-game execution is at best rushed and incomplete, requiring the use of external media (like the novels) to even get a decent understanding of what's going on. Furthermore, the game's narrative has turned into network TV drama as being the main focus... which isn't a high bar to begin with, but the story suffers for it. It comes off as a bad fanfic with self-insertions by a narcissistic author at the expense of all logic and comprehension.

    While a lot of the issues are the fault of the writers, there is still fault with the game design and how the story is told. The reason many people seem to feel the story feels better if its in the background and not a major part of the experience is because the players themselves are basically squires to the major NPCs that aren't actually involved in many of the major plot events in a significant way. This disconnection just compounds the issues where the story is written disconnected from the world the game shows us and how we as players experience the world. In the earlier days of WoW and in some of the better story experiences overall, the player is directly involved in the story (even to where the in-game cutscenes revolve around the player in a few cases). The unfortunate reality is that WoW's storytelling in-game suffers from being told in an after-the-fact manner. This means that our comprehension of the story and what's going on isn't because we were there, it's based upon what others tell us about events that other people took part in. It works in small doses and when executed well, but that's basically all we get now.

    I'd love to say a lot more about this, but the short version is that the writers and game development have a symbiotic relationship that will continue to ruin any chance of a cohesive story and player investment unless changes are made.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aliven View Post
    You know, blizz really want for victims to feel sorry for the abusers. Clearly Sylvanas is traumatized, cant you see?
    While that's tongue-in-cheek, what actually happens at the office probably has a massive effect on the story that gets told. Not going to say the current lawsuit and the issues surrounding it are a main driver (it likely was a driver to some degree), but social/political narratives embraced by the company and individuals within said company are extremely present in the current WoW story. Leaving aside the argument of the story/game needing to be an escape from reality, such narratives generally do terribly in terms of making a compelling story... or at least they tend to be executed that way. It's likely because it suffers from the same issue you get with fanfics: self-insertion of oneself into the story, completely ignoring any reason or logic in the process. A lot of the social/political narratives of the day make little sense in reality, but more importantly they make even less sense in the fantasy world of WoW. But when the the message (or straight up pandering) is your most important goal, the story is likely to suffer.

    Again, this is just one aspect of what's causing the WoW story and lore to become a completely mess, but it's certainly a non-negligible effect as seen by the current writing. To be fair to the writers, some of these insertions and adjustments may come from higher in the development food chain, forcing them to change the story into something it was not intended to be. This is where the game development side of things can interfere with and ruin the story.
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    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I don't expect many to agree with me on this but I think what really carried even Argus and why Broken Shore was comparatively naff was Velen. He was low-key one of their best protagonists, completely atypical from someone like Thrall, Khadgar, Wrathion or god-forbid anyone in the BFA/SL axis. The game wrung every bit of pathos it could in pretty much every scene he was in and he was more personally connected to the goings on than anyone else. It's some of their best characterization.

    I actually think that 7.2 was the nadir of the expansion. While Argus could've easily been an expansion, it was innovative for what it was and it had god-tier presentation plus the aforementioned Velen fare. 7.2 consisted mostly of reused assets, had one of the worst patch non-stories out there and wasted Kil'jaeden.
    Velen is Anduin done right- his convictions get challenged, he learns from said challenges in a fairly organic way, and he grows as a character without doing a complete 180 and/or having his arc take up most of the plot like a tumor (take notes, Saurfang and Sylvanas). I'm pretty sure he had the best arc of any WoW character, at least I can think of none that surpass his. It's a far cut above the usual "good guy becomes buy guy until we beat the bad out of them" WoW fare.

    As for 7.2 having too little story, that's definitely true. Blizzard spread themselves thin continuing the class stories up to and including unique quests for mounts and the Mage Tower challenges, which likely took up the vast majority of the budget they had on the matter. IMO they should have cut a couple quests per class and given KJ a couple appearances to at least move the plot along beyond landing on the Broken Shore - doing class things and errands for Dadgar - booping KJ on the snout.
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  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    This... really puts a spin on things... the quest is called "Rebuilding Faith"
    Just add some enhanced interogation to the mix for a healthy, working compa- sorry, covenant.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Torvald View Post
    I'd love to have been in the writers room when they planned out their arc for WotLK.

    "Then the players, after beating down the Scourge everywhere, winning non-stop, holding a renaissance fair in Icecrown, and actually fighting more Horde / Alliance faction war in airships AS they ascend the citadel (because the Lich King has been that little of a threat) finally reach Arthas."

    "You mean the Lich King that's a merging of Arthas and Ner'zhul, right? Cause we made a big deal at the end of the RTS where he and Ner'zhul say they are one."

    "No, we'll be killing off the Ner'zhul half off-screen, but won't explain it in-game, because explanations are boring. We might devote one page of an out-of-game book to it. Anyway, after all that, the players get to Arthas, and then he reveals he was letting them win the whole time and he one-shots the raid dead. Then the Light performs a Deus Ex Machina, freeing Tirion, who was frozen, shattering Frostmourne, releasing Terenas, who resurrects the players while Arthas is helpless, thereby making the players win. But someone needs to be a new Lich King, so we make Bolvar into that, and it's a big secret to the world that "THERE MUST ALWAYS BE A LICH KING." Only the players and Tirion are supposed to know, as no one else was up there. Muradin almost will have made it up, and will have talked a bunch about confronting Arthas in the airship fight, but he'll get tired and take a nap with the vendors halfway up."
    "Still I think we need more."
    "Okay then, dragons."
    "What about them?"
    "Everything. I've got this great idea for where they live, a tower in the middle of frozen nowhere."
    "A really big tower?"
    "No quite small, not even big enough for one of the Aspects to fit. But we're going to have the blue one go nuts and want to kill all the wizards. And some of the wizards will help him so he doesn't kill them."
    "Okay that should be enough."
    "Titans. All of it. We're going to find out that the dwarves used to be made of stone and metal, and humans used to be giants made of stone and metal and gnomes were robots. Made of metal. Some of the giants will be vikings."
    "Sounds like quite a lot to put i..."
    "There'll be an Old God who's going to kill everyone, and then a big man made of stars who's going to kill everyone."
    "Okay so before fighting the Lich King we're going to kill a Dragon Aspect who wants to kill everyone, an Old God who wants to kill everyone and a man made of stars who wants to kill everyone. Then a friendly jousting tournament. Well we're defini..."
    "Trolls."
    "What about them."
    "They'll just sort of be there. Oh, and you know all those quests that elves do where corruption has made the furbolgs go mad? We'll do that for a whole zone. Gonna have another corrupted world tree and everything."
    "I'm pretty su..."
    "What if Tauren were walruses?"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Just add some enhanced interogation to the mix for a healthy, working compa- sorry, covenant.
    WotLK Lore Guy: "Got you covered. Gonna have the player torture a wizard gone bad. If they don't want to do it they don't get to see what the big blue dragon is up to. Speaking of which the encounter designer says he has a fight that takes way longer than any other but won't give any more loot. The last stage is a clusterfuck and barely playable, certainly not fun."

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Considering how fundamentally SL fucked the concept of death / Afterlive, i strongly disagree with it being worse than TBC.

    TBC biggest crime was throwing some WC2 / WC3 characters under the bus, that pales in what SL has done.
    Nevermind that SL storytelling is a failure with a millions of dollar budget.
    This is a very solid criticism and I agree.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aliven View Post
    You know, blizz really want for victims to feel sorry for the abusers. Clearly Sylvanas is traumatized, cant you see?
    Not only that. Many major plots in SL try to shoehorn that seeking justice (aka vengeance in those cases) is bad. Elune reveal, Sylvanas "redemption" and even Uther being made to repent for literally being the only person to speak against the overrated princess snowflake called Arthas.

    It's been said before, that term where the abuser becomes the crying victim is a form of gaslighting.

    If Blizz wants to paint vengeance as an evil thing, then they should allow us to be the "bad guys" of their horrible storytelling and get it over with.

  18. #218
    Bloodsail Admiral Cloudmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post

    That said I'm expecting more revelations on how these cosmic entities are going to manage lesser beings.
    I hope you don’t think like most of people that Elune let the tree burn, because that’s absurd. I believe there is way bigger shit going on in the universe that we don’t see just yet.
    Last edited by Cloudmaker; 2021-08-06 at 11:10 PM.
    #SaveAlgalon

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    As for 7.2 having too little story, that's definitely true. Blizzard spread themselves thin continuing the class stories up to and including unique quests for mounts and the Mage Tower challenges, which likely took up the vast majority of the budget they had on the matter. IMO they should have cut a couple quests per class and given KJ a couple appearances to at least move the plot along beyond landing on the Broken Shore - doing class things and errands for Dadgar - booping KJ on the snout.
    The class mount quests were pretty decent but while the order halls made up for the non-Suramar story being fifty shades of pointless in 7.0 and were away for Suramar and 7.1 because of the strong focus on the Nightborne, 7.2 badly needed to have an actual story given how KJ's one of the biggest bads of the entire game. Instead, even Velen only gets to have one moment with him as he dies and it's probably the poorest part of his story, especially compared to how good the equivalence scene is on Argus - when Talgath even mentions his wife and child Velen smites his sorry ass and interrupts him mid-way through pulling the 'boss stuns you and runs away at 1%" skit. Meanwhile with KJ, the dude who not only engineered pretty much everything bad that happened to him but also recently spent thousands of years corrupting his son just so he could get a petty kick out of Velen finding out after he'd killed him, they have this pseudo-emotional moment of reconciliation. The handling of KJ is one of the bits of Legion that I've got a hard time getting over in general.

    KJ destroying Dalaran in a reprise of Archimonde wouldn't have really done much for him as a character, but it would have upped his and the Legion's threat level as well as would have had no impact on 7.3 content and actually explained why Khadgar and the city vanish in BFA, but I can see why they didn't do it given the budget.

    Quote Originally Posted by deviantcultist View Post
    Not only that. Many major plots in SL try to shoehorn that seeking justice (aka vengeance in those cases) is bad. Elune reveal, Sylvanas "redemption" and even Uther being made to repent for literally being the only person to speak against the overrated princess snowflake called Arthas.
    Yes, I can't even imagine the wordsmiths that used to work at Blizzard making a narrative where a guy destroys several kingdoms and fucks over the lives of most of the cast, only for when the moment of justice comes, the two victimized races to have zero role in his defeat, nor did the woman he had a relationship with. Instead, the final confrontation would center on some tertiary dickhead who'd never had any role in his story to begin with who defeats him by way of divine intervention. Could you imagine if his mentor ended up remembering him by what a good guy he used to be and the woman he tortured ends up killing herself after failing to achieve any catharsis?
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-08-06 at 05:19 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  20. #220
    I mean, as a writer you only write as good as your pay check.

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