View Poll Results: Do you like the Shadowlands story?

Voters
381. You may not vote on this poll
  • I like it

    46 12.07%
  • I do not like it

    261 68.50%
  • Indifferent

    74 19.42%
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  1. #81
    Brewmaster Pheraz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    WoW has the same problem a lot of popular franchises have: their storytelling bows to the generic, middle-of-the-road, trope-laden median that treats stories as nothing but products. They never take chances, they never have consequences, they simply serve as a tool to advance the underlying merchandise (whatever that may be).

    It's an insult to the characters' intelligence if they have to behave like moronic twist-machines who exist only to deliver chapter-appropriate dialogue; but even more worryingly, it's an insult to the PLAYERS' intelligence because we're treated like imbeciles who couldn't handle some actual gut-wrenching moments or dire consequences to storyline actions.

    No, we apparently can only be trusted with monumentally stupid characters who are deeply surprised that the omni-evil overlord they've been helping overthrow the order of the universe would then seek to establish his own order; a leap of logic so boundlessly moronic it's only rivaled by the comically stereotypical idiocy of said villain in allowing the heroes a reprieve, even reinforcement (by effectively giving Sylvanas back to them). Because that's never come back to bite anyone in the ass.

    Do they honestly think we WANT such storytelling, or are they so deluded and out of touch with their players and themselves that they think any step off the Dinsey-fied path of least storytelling resistance would spell doom for their IP?
    The style of the game is amazing. The artists drawing those worlds and characters and animations are really really good. I think this carries a lot. This also carries the story writers which only think about X moments that would be "cool". LIke... "Wouldn't it be cool if Sylvanas suddenly starts fighting the Jailor? And then he grabs her arrow without looking to it?"
    I think the cinematics are the worst part. As many have written those constant cliff hangers and twists are annoying. Maybe a little bit hope left ("you can not kill hope" ) is that it was worse once (WoD) and got better after (legion). So maybe they are indeed still able to see their crap and come up with something less annoying still satisfying their shareholders
    Vynd | Zorn | Pheraz | Silwyna | Mondlicht | Eis | Blut | Emerelle - My personal Kaldorei army <3 Plus lots of voidy high elves <3

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    i baffles me that people see this sylvanas fanfic redemption arc as "decent" or even "good", with the "i will never serve" after 2 expansions "serving"
    It's mostly just Sylvanas who suffers from this plotline though, since it makes her come across like the most bafflingly incompetent and moronic broad this side of WotLK Arthas.

    The rest of the characters do reasonably well. Anduin being corrupted like Arthas, though against his will, is a wonderful plotline whose only weakness is being linked to Sylvanas.
    Bolvar is given the most lore since at least WotLK, and it is solid enough.

    The base concept of SL is not that great, which might be what constitutes a greater problem in SL that it is likely impossible to untangle from. But compared to the absolute travesty that was the plot pileup in BfA I am willing to give SL the benefit of the doubt and say that SL cannot possibly be as awful.


    BfA will always hold the crown for me on absolute worst plot, simply because it had my ideal setup yet managed to squander it so bad. A faction war with a naval focus and possible intrigue on why the war was even started is a wonderful and seemingly simple way to describe BfA,and yet it squandered it at every turn, peaking with the ending that simultaneously didn't actually give us a conclusion to the initial plothook, and also ruined a long anticipated villain by rushing into it.

    SL still only really suffers from the Jailer being boring and Sylvanas being stupid. The Elune thing was explained perfectly well, just not really exciting enough to warrant the mystery. And SL as a whole is slightly creaking under the weight of a concept it cannot really support, but other than that most of the plot is perfectly serviceable, certainly not significantly worse than any other plot.


    In summary BfA will always be worse, barring a similar plot suicide from SL.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Pheraz View Post
    The style of the game is amazing. The artists drawing those worlds and characters and animations are really really good.
    No question. Both the quality and the aesthetics are absolutely top-tier.

    The writing, though, is middle-school tier. It reads like a tropey fanfic that steps into EVERY writing pitfall there is. It really is DCEU levels of cringe at times, "I will destrooooy yoouuuu!" and all that.

    It bothers me that the writers seem to think we're stupid as an audience and couldn't handle more sophisticated writing.

  4. #84
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamais View Post
    People generally loved the soul split/personality change from Uther.
    no we don't, in fact that is considered bullshit
    what lot of ppl did like is part that Uther proves that Kyrian are blind fanatics who are wrong and he is right, not the part that his soul is 1502 parts some in azeroth some in frostmourne some in shadowlands, we literally visit his grave to honor or disgrace it in quest, he should have rested there, not half rest half grinding kyrians
    not to mention Uther himself is considered icon of blind devotion in first place, that's literally his description in one of RPG books (I think Land of Conflict or Mystery)

    And i doubt that leaving her to lesser creatures (jailer sees us as cockroaches or lower) to be punished is worse punish than anything he can do, if anything it shows he doesn't give a f8ck about her anymore

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    Writing is bad and all your "waifu" nonsense
    what part is nonsense? the waifu part is sadly true, internet doesn't forget even if he deleted them
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    In summary BfA will always be worse, barring a similar plot suicide from SL.
    SL doesn't have the rope necessary to kill itself. The only thing it really needs to conclude on its initial premise is have us beat down the Janitor next patch, seal the afterlives and leave how they work post-Arbiter vague and leave the dreadlords and Denathrius as their own conspiracy overarching villains going forward. If they want to be really daring they can have the Blue Man partially succeed to justify a world revamp but even that isn't necessary. They simply don't have enough pieces left on the board and anything that can be meaningfully fucked up either already was in BFA (everything about the factions, Anduin, Teldrassil, night elves, Sylvanas etc.) or already fucked up by 9.1 (Sylvanas redemption, lol Elune).

    I don't know what even could be a worst case scenario and also be unexpected. They could redeem Sylvanas into the Arbiter role, redeem Arthas, kill both the Janitor and the Dreadlords and have Anduin return trauma-free, but that still leaves us at the exact same spot we were at the end of BFA regarding the playable factions so nothing of value is lost provided the Shadowlands are sealed.

    It's rare, but kind of impressive, that you end up in a situation where the plot fails so often that it is simply unable to fail any further.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-08-02 at 07:45 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  6. #86
    The WoW lore was always kinda based on Warhammer and Greek/Norse mythology. That's the reason why I lowered my expectations towards the writers to ground level. By now WoW is a meatless hack&slash single player game with the most boring "repeatable content" you can possibly imagine. This isn't universal truth but the way I see it.

  7. #87
    Pit Lord Nutri's Avatar
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    Sometimes I wish we could just go back to the 'one storyline per expansion' type of writing.
    No arc spread over 3 xpacs, just give me a big bad dude on the boxcover art and work the entire xpac towards killing that big baddy.

    WotlK did that. Just have the LK show up here and there to remember who you're hunting and have him taunt you a bit to validate killing him even more. Have a 'a few years of peace went by but now a new threat rises' moment and let the next xpac start.

  8. #88
    Dreadlord Smallfruitbat's Avatar
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    The Warcraft story is becoming unrecognisable, in part because they have fallen into the trap that there always has to be something bigger and badder just out of sight that is controlling/causing all the ills of Azeroth.

    At this stage, I'm not sure it's fixable. Going back 5 years, I wouldn't have killed off KJ and defeated Sargeras for a start. There were better ways of starting a faction conflict for BFA -which would have felt less contrived than a big sword sticking out of the planet. In fact, the Horde and Alliance blaming one another for the failure to take them out would have made more sense.

    I also find the execution poor. If Sylvanas and the Jailer are supposedly the big bads of this expansion, why don't we interact with them? Chasing Sylvanas across Azeroth in BFA would have added some interest, especially if we got to see a trail of destruction left by the Night Warrior who was hunting her. We could have had hints that Sylvanas was working with someone and the who and why. That would have made the raid more satisfying. There should have been direct interaction with the Jailer, I was flinging the Ashbringer around not too long ago, I'm a pretty powerful foe. Why wasn't he interested in recruiting me. If you check my CV, I'm up there in terms of influence. Instead, we get snippets and then a big reveal cinematic and they wonder why players aren't interested. Give me a villain that I understand and I will love plotting against them and chasing them down. Show me a cinematic with a grumbling giant who says he's going to fix the world and I'm out.

  9. #89
    It's not the worst ever. It has always been incredibly bad.
    It's just more important now while in TBC you would not even see the story.

  10. #90
    As long as those in charge of the writing team remain nothing will change. There needs to be complete change in the team, starting at the top. Finish off the current storyline, replace the leadership and tell a new, contained story for the next expansion. WoW needs a fresh outlook and this isn't just limited to writers -- game design needs improved across the board.

  11. #91
    its prety bad, the elune/tyrande thing was 1005 ringe

    havig said that the whole sylvanas battle for azeroth stuff was terrible

  12. #92
    Where is the I absolutely hate it option?

    I do not like it doesn't reflect my opinion on the garbage story and writing in Shadowlands at all.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Considering how fundamentally SL fucked the concept of death / Afterlive, i strongly disagree with it being worse than TBC.

    TBC biggest crime was throwing some WC2 / WC3 characters under the bus, that pales in what SL has done.
    Nevermind that SL storytelling is a failure with a millions of dollar budget.
    Agreed. Ruining a few cool characters is one thing. Ruining the context in which cool characters can exist to begin with is a lot worse.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  14. #94
    Everyone will have a point at which they feel the story has gone too far into stupidland and therefore doesn't matter anymore. For some people that was Cataclysm, for a lot of people that was Mists of Pandaria, and for most everyone else it was Warlords of Draenor.

    How, 3 expansions later, anyone is expecting the story not to be saturated in dumb, is beyond me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Posting here is primarily a way to strengthen your own viewpoint against common counter-arguments.

  15. #95
    Warhammer 40k's origin story, The Horus Heresy is the only example of galaxy-multi-dimensional-bargain-with-gods stakes are handled well. This is because the setting, despite its absurd scale is grounded in all the best that fiction has to offer.

    The amount of characters, mainly the primarchs, are vast, but they're also highly distinct, extreme personalities, larger than life. They all have a completely unique, well argued, perspective and they're willing to sacrifice everything in order to assert this perspective. Even though the entire galaxy-spanning conflict is split along two factions, just like in WoW, the various philosophies within each faction are often at odds with each other to the point where the characters have as much to fear from their friends as they do from their enemies.

    This is something WoW lacks. Sylvanas is merely an antagonist for the sake of being an antagonist. The lore constantly has to bend around her to accommodate her highly whimsical motivations.

    The protagonist don't have an actual personality. Thrall is Jaina, Jaina is Anduin, Anduin is Baine, Baine is Bolvar. They are never disagreeing on anything, their wants and desires are identical. They look different but they're the same entity.

    Ultimately, The Horus Heresy got away with these giant celestial odds because it was written as a tragedy. The Horus Heresy explained why the 40k universe is such a miserable place in constant strive. It desolved the universe order and everything is conflict.

    WoW on the other hand, constantly has to let he player know they've won. They saved the universe time and time again. Every bad guy ends up dead with loot to be distributed. Order and peace restored to the land, the peasants can sleep sound knowing the dragon is dead.

    By constantly putting the universe at stake, while at the same time being obviously unable to change it in a major fashion, the game has limited its story potential to repeating the same stale story over and over again.

  16. #96
    I really like lore through out the expansions. World of WarCraft did not die with Wrath of the Lich King and Shadowlands are just great. I liked all the lore so far, including Legion, Warlords of Draenor, Mists of Pandaria, Cataclysm. I am sorry if you cannot enjoy it as I do but saying it that is "WORSE" is really a subjective opinion and you let streamers, like Asmongold to influence your own opinion as the only opinion there is.

    I am not a streamer but I do have an opinion and my opinion is that Asmongold is the worse that can happen to this community and just the fact that he has such popularity, clearly says about what kind of players you get in the game and again - those are not the only players.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    It's mostly just Sylvanas who suffers from this plotline though, since it makes her come across like the most bafflingly incompetent and moronic broad this side of WotLK Arthas.
    The worst part of it is that even when Sylvanas was indeed that mind-bendingly moronic, she *still* ran rings around the rest of the characters.

    The Alliance still stepped into her plague-traps at Undercity (The place where green plague-goo is the #1 export) *twice*, only saved by Jaina-ex-machina, why are Alliance characters so powerful? To surmount the handicap of being as dense as a crate of anvils!

    The supposed masterminds-by-retcon (Hardly any build-up at all, so "It was dreadlords all along" certainly feels like a retcon.) suddenly appearing everywhere, oh so smart! Then Thanos... oops, the jailer, doing his infinity gauntlet thing with those covenant McGuffins (One of which we delivered to him personally, did anybody not see that coming?), and giving Sylvanas half of her soul back so she can be washed clean of any responsibility, it all feels so cobbled together, like they watched "Infinity war" and "Endgame" at movie night one time and thought "We gotta do something like that!"

    So here we are, putting together another set of covenant McGuffins over the new campaign chapters, let's wait for the "I. am. Sylvanas."-scene, shall we?

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    SL doesn't have the rope necessary to kill itself. The only thing it really needs to conclude on its initial premise is have us beat down the Janitor next patch, seal the afterlives and leave how they work post-Arbiter vague and leave the dreadlords and Denathrius as their own conspiracy overarching villains going forward. If they want to be really daring they can have the Blue Man partially succeed to justify a world revamp but even that isn't necessary. They simply don't have enough pieces left on the board and anything that can be meaningfully fucked up either already was in BFA (everything about the factions, Anduin, Teldrassil, night elves, Sylvanas etc.) or already fucked up by 9.1 (Sylvanas redemption, lol Elune).

    I don't know what even could be a worst case scenario and also be unexpected. They could redeem Sylvanas into the Arbiter role, redeem Arthas, kill both the Janitor and the Dreadlords and have Anduin return trauma-free, but that still leaves us at the exact same spot we were at the end of BFA regarding the playable factions so nothing of value is lost provided the Shadowlands are sealed.

    It's rare, but kind of impressive, that you end up in a situation where the plot fails so often that it is simply unable to fail any further.
    The very concept if going to the Shadowlands is enough rope for the story to hang itself I would argue. It's unlikely it will even manage, but the story has taken a significant blow just from actually getting cold hard proof of how the afterlife works.
    As I have said before, we now know enough about the Shadowlands for each ghost we encounter to be a plothole without further explanation.

    Generally though I agree. The material presented in BfA was far more volatile when it crashed and burned. Nazjatar was highly anticipated ever since the Naga was first presented, and while it looked about what it should (barring the stupid decision to not make it actually underwater) it's inclusion in BfA meant it got tainted by the same problems that plagued the expansion as a whole when it decided to cram too much into the expansion.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivarr View Post
    Warhammer 40k's origin story, The Horus Heresy is the only example of galaxy-multi-dimensional-bargain-with-gods stakes are handled well. This is because the setting, despite its absurd scale is grounded in all the best that fiction has to offer.

    The amount of characters, mainly the primarchs, are vast, but they're also highly distinct, extreme personalities, larger than life. They all have a completely unique, well argued, perspective and they're willing to sacrifice everything in order to assert this perspective. Even though the entire galaxy-spanning conflict is split along two factions, just like in WoW, the various philosophies within each faction are often at odds with each other to the point where the characters have as much to fear from their friends as they do from their enemies.

    This is something WoW lacks. Sylvanas is merely an antagonist for the sake of being an antagonist. The lore constantly has to bend around her to accommodate her highly whimsical motivations.

    The protagonist don't have an actual personality. Thrall is Jaina, Jaina is Anduin, Anduin is Baine, Baine is Bolvar. They are never disagreeing on anything, their wants and desires are identical. They look different but they're the same entity.

    Ultimately, The Horus Heresy got away with these giant celestial odds because it was written as a tragedy. The Horus Heresy explained why the 40k universe is such a miserable place in constant strive. It desolved the universe order and everything is conflict.

    WoW on the other hand, constantly has to let he player know they've won. They saved the universe time and time again. Every bad guy ends up dead with loot to be distributed. Order and peace restored to the land, the peasants can sleep sound knowing the dragon is dead.

    By constantly putting the universe at stake, while at the same time being obviously unable to change it in a major fashion, the game has limited its story potential to repeating the same stale story over and over again.

    Quoted for truth. Yes, all of it. Because this guy nailed it.

  20. #100
    TBC, WoD, BFA were all equal/worse

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