View Poll Results: Do you like the Shadowlands story?

Voters
381. You may not vote on this poll
  • I like it

    46 12.07%
  • I do not like it

    261 68.50%
  • Indifferent

    74 19.42%
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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    It bothers me that the writers seem to think we're stupid as an audience and couldn't handle more sophisticated writing.
    Most can't.

    Same goes for FFXIV's community.

    A very vocal portion of the community in each game kicks and screams the moment there's even the slightest hint of depth or grey morality in a story. Or when a character acts within the confines of an agenda of their own making.

    There's also a weird purity spiral where disproportionate retribution for reasonable actions is demanded.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    How surprising, Shadowlands story happened to be as bad and nonsensical as BFA, if not even worse. The writers were clearly not picked with much difficulty nor did they learn their lessons after BFA.
    BfA simply had an amazing setting. The setting is what carried the expansion. Get the world right and all the gameplay and lore quirks become more easy to tolerate.

  3. #163
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    The rest of the characters do reasonably well. Anduin being corrupted like Arthas, though against his will, is a wonderful plotline whose only weakness is being linked to Sylvanas.
    I would not say that is good, it is a blatantly Arthas rip-off but with no consequences, in the end we will save him, and he will just be sad about, and that is what they will explore, if they ever care about that, honestly tiresome. It is bad if do not biring any real consequences.

    Bolvar is given the most lore since at least WotLK, and it is solid enough.
    Nothing will save him the terrible trailler

    The base concept of SL is not that great, which might be what constitutes a greater problem in SL that it is likely impossible to untangle from. But compared to the absolute travesty that was the plot pileup in BfA I am willing to give SL the benefit of the doubt and say that SL cannot possibly be as awful.
    It would be ok, if they actually write a plot well, without the rule of coll and edgy things.

    there is also the fact how they rpetend this shit is being going since wtlk

    They have to realize, a plot hanging around for 3 expansions is NOT a "masterpiece" like they think it is, is a bad way to tell the story of a mmo.

    BfA will always hold the crown for me on absolute worst plot
    that i agre totally

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    It's not a matter of me hating them, it's just a very clear case of them ripping the lore to shreds so an author can cram his own creations in the established lore while not entirely making it clear if the time travel adventure is a retcon or alternate universe. Add to that the TBC retcons, sci-fi elements, changes to characters and weird stuff like Naaru and I see a lot of parallels with what you say about SL and how TBC was produced.
    Well to be fair I didn't know much about anything lore-wise until I picked up those books (and began reading more wow books afterwards since I liked them so much). So it may have been to my benefit that I didn't get any sour tastes in my mouth to any retconning or lore mess-ups that took place in the trilogy.

  5. #165
    The mainstream media repeats the overall sentiment of whatever journalist overview is applied. That's the point.
    We know the writing is the worst it's ever been, we see it standing on shaky legs and wasting its good ideas in loops and contrivancies that actually hurt the good because it all needs to be spectacularized. It's not news.

    And although it would be interesting to read a take from some professional storyteller, nobody can be asked to cope with all the things that happened since BfA, and it's a lot - a lot. Maybe more than it ever happened in the history of the game, all cramped from 8.0 to 8.3. We went from arms race fueled faction war to reality bending void invasion, all spliced with some more world ending threats, going through two full blown city incursions with one having a regicide for good measure and the return of the long lost Kaldorei capital city.

    BfA managed to burn through:
    • the aftermath of Sargeras' final attack
    • the destruction of Teldrassil
    • the destruction of the Undercity
    • some titan facilities
    • Zuul, Rastakhan and the Zandalari
    • the Loas
    • Azshara
    • N'zoth
    • Saurfang's quest for a good death
    • Sylvanas
    • Ashvane

    This has material for three expansions in their own right. BfA wasted most of them like it was TBC all over again and you faced Kael'thas in space and Vashj in a sewer. WoD wasted the Gronn empire? The comparisons just pale. Nyalotha could have carried alone two years with all the hype it got over the years in a momentous rush much like the one that led us to Argus in Legion. Apparently we had to be led to the equivalent of Azeroth's suburbs because that's all the Void could invade at once.

    Shadowlands can't do anything because Dickmann is right, all of the substance has been bitten away. Reconstruction is in order but the overarching narrative is still hostage to old characters holding the spotlight way past their welcome to the point of not resembling themselves.

    Elune is the literal hail mary to try and stoke interest in the same trite hype video of obscure quotes and contrived motivations, but the real tragedy is the lack of faith this writing team holds for itself: the audience doesn't trust them to deliver, and is exhilarated at the idea of Elune becoming a quest giver.

  6. #166
    I think most people in the Lore community are find with the storytelling being kinda shitty. Like getting your lore from cinematics, quests, random books you find in the world, and external books/comics/etc is pretty overwhelming for most people, but thats not why people are upset.

    People are upset because Shadowlands has retconned a large part of Warcraft's roots. Warcraft 3 has pretty much been retconned. The entire reason Sylvanas had an anger towards Arthas was because he killed her and most the high elves going to res Kel Thuzad under the instruction of dreadlords/Nerzhul. Her entire story arc started with vengeance.

    Fast forward 20 years and here we are, what actually happened was the Jailer was controlling the dreadlords who were controlling Nerzhul who was controlling Arthas who was controlling KT. So in actuality the Jailer is responsible for Sylvanas' situation, but she still stands by him in a raid with Nerzhul AND KT in it. She is now allies with the person who orchestrated it, the person who dictated how it would happen, and the person who was resurrected as a result of her death.

    Also, Elune is depicted as a diety above the shadowlands, yet she was oblivious to everything going on? She wasnt aware of how the Shadowlands works? "Imma answer the call of my sister by letting all my followers die that way their souls go to Ardeanweald!" too bad the arbiter dictates where souls go...Pretty pathetic showing from the diety that has been around for 20 years.

  7. #167
    WoW almost always gets the individual zones right; questing in them usually feels good and makes sense. It is astounding that the people in charge of the main plot can't get the bigger picture together and present it in a meaningful way. It feels as though they don't spend a minute thinking how well something translates onto the playerbase.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2021-08-02 at 09:05 PM.

  8. #168
    Only one Azmontroll reaction video? How am I supposed to know what thoughts I'm allowed to have with only one video by him?

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamais View Post
    And why would you put punish under quotes? He literally leaves her two feet away at the mercy of three people that want her dead. Also, now she will be tormented by all the horrible stuff she has done. People generally loved the soul split/personality change from Uther.

    Also, I fail to see any evidence that Sylvanas will get a redemption, people are outraging themselves in advance lol.

    Anyway, no matter how SL ends, Bastion Afterlives cinematic alone is one of the best pieces of WoW story i have ever seen. To mee, that video was perfect, and i still get goosebumps when i revisit it. Revendreth and Arden were also really cool, Maldraxxus one a little less.

    I generally liked how Blizzard envisioned SL as a WoW afterlife, i really liked the structure and the zones. I also applaud them from actually creating new lore and stepping into the unknown.

    For the main story plot, I am curious. It is not excellent, but it is not trash. I think many people are too emotionally invested in some chars and prone to outrage if the story didn't fit their narrative.
    Having a few cool cinematics doesn't make up for all the bad lore and writing inbetween.

  10. #170
    Honestly Shadowlands is better than BfA for more 'main-ish' story lines. BfA still has good side stories, as is always the case with any WoW expansion. A lot of things in the main story for Shadowlands had potential or were actually neat - but squandered due to poor foresight with lore. The entire Sylvanas vs Tyrande arc springs to mind.

    But ultimately no matter how many flashy cinematics they throw at us, it doesn't make up for bad decisions or just poor choices. If I'm being honest though, BfA had a better premise due to established lore but threw it away. Shadowlands created a promising premise, but is clearly throwing it away.

  11. #171
    Wish people would stop with the excuse that just because "iNfLuEnCeRs" are talking about it means it's bs.

    Most people actually think it's bs. Those who don't at this point can't really be convinced otherwise, and are probably the same people who think S8 GoT is good, and that The Last Jedi was also good.

    It's embarrassing.

  12. #172
    High Overlord Lorde Snow's Avatar
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    This Writing achieves the impossible, to be worse than GOT season 8 ande Star Wars Skywalker Ascension
    what did they do with the lore i loved so much?? they destroyed what made wow so special.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    WoW almost always gets the individual zones right; questing in them usually feels good and makes sense. It is astounding that the people in charge of the main plot can't get the bigger picture together and present it in a meaningful way. It feels as though they don't spend a minute thinking how well something translates onto the playerbase.
    That's the thing that annoys me most. When they stick to self-contained stories, they do fine. Off the top of my head: Stormheim, Suramar, Nazmir, Drustvar, Zuldazar, Maldraxxus, Revendreth, in the past 3 expansions they had several zones deliver neat stories. But then they try to tie it all together and it's like a different team takes over and injects as many "shocking" twists, stilted dialog, and fanfiction-tier characters doing stupid shit as they can into the mix. At this point I'm actually convinced they have a "main" writing team who handles the main plotline, which sucks, and a secondary team handling the individual zones and lower-level lore who do a better job for whatever reason. Maybe they're given the time to work on it, maybe the main plotline is dictated from above while the zones aren't as much, I dunno at this point.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  14. #174
    Warcraft's lore died with Teldrassil.

    Anyone who still defends this story, the game, or the company itself is so high on copium that there is no hope for you.
    Last edited by Sithalos; 2021-08-02 at 09:55 PM.
    Scheduled weekly maintenance caught me by surprise.

  15. #175
    The wow story has been bad for a long time, but yeah this is probably the worst writing they've ever done for sure. Even the characters seem pointless, Bolvar, Jaina, Thrall, Baine all just being there, the jailer is a blank slate of a villain who turns into a torghast trash mob, Sylvanas seems to be schizophrenic as if they have several different people writing her with no communication between them, then you have Tyrande and the night warrior accomplishing nothing with that disaster of a storyline and Elune saying things like "she must choose" right after Elune took that choice away from her and they think these lines sound good just because they have the voice actors deliver them in a slow and whispery way as opposed to working on the content of what they are saying. But hey at least the cutscene look okay, the content can be trash and pointless as long as there are enough sparkly lights to distract viewer.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    That's the thing that annoys me most. When they stick to self-contained stories, they do fine. Off the top of my head: Stormheim, Suramar, Nazmir, Drustvar, Zuldazar, Maldraxxus, Revendreth, in the past 3 expansions they had several zones deliver neat stories. But then they try to tie it all together and it's like a different team takes over and injects as many "shocking" twists, stilted dialog, and fanfiction-tier characters doing stupid shit as they can into the mix. At this point I'm actually convinced they have a "main" writing team who handles the main plotline, which sucks, and a secondary team handling the individual zones and lower-level lore who do a better job for whatever reason. Maybe they're given the time to work on it, maybe the main plotline is dictated from above while the zones aren't as much, I dunno at this point.
    It definitely feels like that and I honestly believe it to be true. I see no other way to explain a recurring phenomenon like this.

  17. #177
    Legion was pushing it, but what SL did is completely erase any suspension of disbelief from WoW, it strayed too far from its "core" lore while completely shitting on powerlevel definitions of the past, the titans were the be all end all of life for the longest time in warcraft lore, yet suddenly it turned out they were nothing but lego toys and theres a bunch of voodoo ghost hippies above them that seemingly are dumber than goblins, and are in no way above the "petty quarrels" of mortals.

    It's just... no, the train has derailed all the way into the ocean.

  18. #178
    I feel like Legion did incredibly well to tie in all the various plots from Warcraft's past, primarily through the Artifact Weapon questlines and Order Hall questlines. It felt like Legion was trying to put an umbrella above everything we knew and tie it together, with a modicum of respect towards the universe of Warcraft and what it meant for those invested in the franchise. It didn't do an excellent job on all fronts, but it showed that a huge amount of work, understanding and passion went into it.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    I feel like Legion did incredibly well to tie in all the various plots from Warcraft's past, primarily through the Artifact Weapon questlines and Order Hall questlines. It felt like Legion was trying to put an umbrella above everything we knew and tie it together, with a modicum of respect towards the universe of Warcraft and what it meant for those invested in the franchise. It didn't do an excellent job on all fronts, but it showed that a huge amount of work, understanding and passion went into it.
    You're exactly right: it didn't do an excellent job and it didn't need to. It was respectful to its origins and told a good story. I have some issues with the latter cinematics starting from the ending of Tomb of Sargeras, but overall Legion sticked to its guns and did Warcraft things.

    Which leads me to the following point: a writer is allowed to tell one's own story. But if the story is an original one then it has legs to stand on its own, and doesn't need to lean on the expectations of old estabilished characters or franchises, depauperating their legacy in the process and morphing them into something else via either retcons or nonsensical twists. Saurfang is the biggest, saddest case in point, who sees his final moments having two contradictions and fights his last fight with Shalamayne, ideally bridging the Horde and the Alliance and ultimately getting nowhere.

    Nowadays disrespectful is a big word whose impact got diluted by overuse. And here it fits exactly right, with the story being told not being trusted enough to be pushed by its logical conclusion after all the BfA narrative got done, even after all it got butchered to feed it.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    You're exactly right: it didn't do an excellent job and it didn't need to. It was respectful to its origins and told a good story. I have some issues with the latter cinematics starting from the ending of Tomb of Sargeras, but overall Legion sticked to its guns and did Warcraft things.

    Which leads me to the following point: a writer is allowed to tell one's own story. But if the story is an original one then it has legs to stand on its own, and doesn't need to lean on the expectations of old estabilished characters or franchises, depauperating their legacy in the process and morphing them into something else via either retcons or nonsensical twists. Saurfang is the biggest, saddest case in point, who sees his final moments having two contradictions and fights his last fight with Shalamayne, ideally bridging the Horde and the Alliance and ultimately getting nowhere.

    Nowadays disrespectful is a big word whose impact got diluted by overuse. And here it fits exactly right, with the story being told not being trusted enough to be pushed by its logical conclusion after all the BfA narrative got done, even after all it got butchered to feed it.
    Do you think the zones of Legion should have been kept separate from the Broken Isles and Tomb of Sargeras? After all they are new stories that should have legs and shouldn't be leaning on the expectations of old established characters or franchises. Did the nonsensical twists of surviving/ghostly Night Elves and retcons to the structure of the islands depauperate the legacy of WC3?

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