Poll: Do you like the Shadowlands story?

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  1. #181
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    It's not really a since BFA thing tbh. Blizzard writing has been considered bad since basically forever. Black Temple had some astonishingly horrible lore and that was what, 15` years ago? Aside from not liking that we've gone from mercenaries to cosmic adventuring generals I don't really find the writing to be much if any worse than it used to be.
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  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    What I'm talking about is how they managed to pull 3 groups of Elves, some new special Tauren and a whole zone of Titans and Vrykul out of their asses. You can't say that it's treating past lore with respect when it completely changes the way the Tomb of Sargeras was portrayed in WC3 and totally undermines the mysteries of Ulduar in WotLK. Why was it such a big deal finding out about the Keepers, Vrykul and Valkyr if the centre of druidism was practically next door to Odyn's place? Also why didn't the druids do anything about those ghosts who were hanging around near them for 10,000 years?
    I could find a rationale to basically everything, but I guess I get your point: Legion's setting of the Broken Isles is a sizable asspull. Still, this asspull does little to undermine the overarching narrative. The Halls of Valor especially is a wildly different facility than Ulduar, with a different purpose altogether.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Simultaneously, it's why I can't take praise of Legion all that seriously. At the end of the day it fully removed the main baddie of the game after a pathetic post-release performance while giving one of the title races, the orcs, who's background relates entirely to the Legion zero role in engaging it.
    I think the first half of Legion heavily carried the second, with Argus being such a novel concept it really had the strength to drive the entire thing up until Sargeras being vacuumed away from relevance. For a time, at least.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    I think the first half of Legion heavily carried the second, with Argus being such a novel concept it really had the strength to drive the entire thing up until Sargeras being vacuumed away from relevance. For a time, at least.
    I don't expect many to agree with me on this but I think what really carried even Argus and why Broken Shore was comparatively naff was Velen. He was low-key one of their best protagonists, completely atypical from someone like Thrall, Khadgar, Wrathion or god-forbid anyone in the BFA/SL axis. The game wrung every bit of pathos it could in pretty much every scene he was in and he was more personally connected to the goings on than anyone else. It's some of their best characterization.

    I actually think that 7.2 was the nadir of the expansion. While Argus could've easily been an expansion, it was innovative for what it was and it had god-tier presentation plus the aforementioned Velen fare. 7.2 consisted mostly of reused assets, had one of the worst patch non-stories out there and wasted Kil'jaeden.
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  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Nzx View Post
    I could not care less what the writing is like. I haven't read quest text since 2004 and I esc -> skip cinematic immediately if addons don't do it for me. Why am I supposed to give a shit about articles from websites or "creators" that would be committing career suicide if they did anything except capitalise on the anti-Blizzard zeitgeist right now? Asmongold lives in an attic surrounded by his own garbage and literally who is Pyromancer?

    To answer your questions I'd improve the story by doing exactly what the majority aren't asking for, strongly encourage them all to leave, and then sideline the story entirely in favour of allowing people to just play the game.
    That's one hell of a shitpost. "World of Nothingcraft" - no reason to fight things, no reason to quest, no thought or inspiration, just "gameplay". Like collecting 10 boar asses for reasons that you will never be told.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Akibaboy View Post
    One of the main problems with WoW's cutscenes is that they're actually written so well that no one understands them. Writing guru Robert McKee advises when writing dialogue and screenplay to avoid several traps such as needless exposition, repetition, "as you know" dialogue, etc. and because WoW's scenes follow those rules, and the rules of cinematic pacing pretty effectively... everyone misinterprets them. For example, all of social media accused Elune of sending the Horde to burn Teldrassil, which was 100% wrong because they didn't know how to understand the simple, straight forward dialogue of "in the wake of tragedy". In another MMO game, those 5 words would be stretched out into 2 paragraphs of exposition with onlookers tilting their heads with hand firmly placed on chin. Even the PC Gamer article misunderstands what the Jailer did for Sylvanas and says he "randomly decides to be nice" - in the cutscene, the Jailer says that he is going to leave her to their mercy: by restoring her soul completely, he's effectively tormenting her with the ability to realize how terrible she's been, and also leaving her in the presence of people who will judge and remind her of that constantly. The Jailer and the Maw's whole thing has been torment. This is a spiritual and psychological torment he just gave her, not him being "nice".
    I think you are underestimation peoples ability to capture these things. Both points you provided are pretty well known and I haven't seen all that many people who would interpreted these scenes as anything else you just said.
    And that's the problem: maaany (most) is able to through this shallow writing and see how fraud it really is.

    Other that that its just correct that whole story is there to give us reasons to do and kill stuff... whatever silly they might be.

  6. #186


    That's what's going on here. WoW vanilla didn't have a plot to begin with. It's only later where what is supposed to be an MMO got stuffed into a singleplayer mould.

    For an MMO to succeed it needs a compelling setting, not necessarily a compelling plot. All a plot can be is at best not be an obstacle to enjoying the setting.

    Focusing on giving an MMO a original plot with lots of unpredictable twists is to undermine all the ways it can be an interesting setting. Suddenly the game needs to facilitate these superhero protagonists that the player character needs to assist along with the hundreds of other player characters that pay for the same subscription.

    All the quests somehow have to contribute or at least align to this giant overarching narrative. And once it's concluded, all the tension is removed from the place and the game feels stale.
    Last edited by Ivarr; 2021-08-03 at 01:10 PM.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    It always puzzles me why people who (presumably) play video games are so eager to slag off games journalists for not being "proper" journalists, like they don't consider gaming to be a "proper" hobby and instead of quitting decide to attack people who might take it a bit more seriously than they do.
    I would take the time ro call thjis out... but I think I remember which side of a discussion you fell on back when Games Journalists as a profession collectively shit teh bad and refused to acknowledge their mistake.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by FAILoZOFF View Post
    I think you are underestimation peoples ability to capture these things. Both points you provided are pretty well known and I haven't seen all that many people who would interpreted these scenes as anything else you just said.
    And that's the problem: maaany (most) is able to through this shallow writing and see how fraud it really is.

    Other that that its just correct that whole story is there to give us reasons to do and kill stuff... whatever silly they might be.
    The top WoW lore people online and forums were parroting the wrong assessment that Elune sent the Horde to burn Teldrassil, pretty much everywhere - WoW forums, Twitter, MMO-C, Wowhead. Same with the Sanctum conclusion. It's not an "underestimation" that people don't get it because I'm not making an estimation... I'm seeing it first hand.

    Which is weird because the story is very basic and simple. I'm not defending it or saying it's good. I'm saying that the majority of people online going "reeee terrible lore!" can't actually correctly assess what happened anyway. Shallow writing isn't a "fraud" if it's intentionally serving the purpose of the medium. A game like Shadow of the Colossus has a very simple and shallow story... but it perfectly serves the medium of having the player just get out there in the world and experience it. The same is true for the Zelda series whose story is basically "Ganon came back again guys" restyled and repackaged. WoW is purposely shallow.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I don't expect many to agree with me on this but I think what really carried even Argus and why Broken Shore was comparatively naff was Velen. He was low-key one of their best protagonists, completely atypical from someone like Thrall, Khadgar, Wrathion or god-forbid anyone in the BFA/SL axis. The game wrung every bit of pathos it could in pretty much every scene he was in and he was more personally connected to the goings on than anyone else. It's some of their best characterization.

    I actually think that 7.2 was the nadir of the expansion. While Argus could've easily been an expansion, it was innovative for what it was and it had god-tier presentation plus the aforementioned Velen fare. 7.2 consisted mostly of reused assets, had one of the worst patch non-stories out there and wasted Kil'jaeden.
    I overall agree to be honest. Velen drove the sense of lost wonder in Macaree perfectly and was a clear cut from the hellscape of the Antoran wastes, an adequate change of pace.
    7.2 is a sore spot. Anecdotally I was expecting so much after 7.1 and the Insurrection - which to me was still weaker than the Nightfallen questline overall - and it all amounted to nothing. Kil'jaeden getting overshadowed by a planet is just sad overall, even if that planet is bloody Argus.

  10. #190
    I am Murloc! Asrialol's Avatar
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    It's always amusing to see people on these forum claim they're part of a majority.
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  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by peepeepoopants View Post
    That's one hell of a shitpost. "World of Nothingcraft" - no reason to fight things, no reason to quest, no thought or inspiration, just "gameplay". Like collecting 10 boar asses for reasons that you will never be told.
    Sounds good to me. All video games with actual staying power put gameplay before "storyline". Diablo 2 storyline, who gives a shit. PoE storyline, who gives a shit. DoTA/LoL storyline, who gives a shit. Counterstrike storyline? lol? No one spends thousands of hours replaying games for their storyline, and if a studio wants a game that is monetizable at all let alone a sub based game then they need people to spend thousands of hours playing it.

    Story-driven games are prey for locusts. They're a one-time purchase, 40 hour commitment, with maybe once-a-year replayability. How many of the people who sit on forums like this parroting shit takes they got from YouTube actually reroll characters to play through the parts of the game where there was "good story"? You ever see Asmongold roll a new character to go play through the "epic storyline" of Wrath or whatever while all his viewers get themselves off to the quality writing? Like fuck.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    TBC writing makes SL look good.

    That is how bad SL is right now. Honestly, the sooner this expansion is put to bed, the better.
    Yeh. Legion was going so well. Until Xe’ra and Illidan - and the evil controlling light - and I knew they had completely lost it.

    They are writing moreso than ever for thills and kicks and the reasoning is shitty, almost like there are no writers that understand common sense or sensible reasoning.

    It got and still is getting more ridiculous and ridiculous.

    This is why they should leave the big cosmic stuff as mostly mystery and focus on the story of the races and zones.

  13. #193
    Warcraft story was always kinda cheesy and far away from a masterpiece, but exactly that comic like rule of cool is what entertains me.

    I actually think they try to make more complex and in depth narratives but can't figure out how to convey it properly within WoW.
    Wotlk and the whole lich king/arthas arc was well received because it was simple to understand, was set up ahead of time (unlike aszhara/nzoth), and very straight forward.

    It wasn't some kind of masterpiece with an amazing twist and could be followed/understood just by playing the game(s).

    For the modern narrative it feels like you need to read the books and replay the story content right before the next big patch drops while listening very carefully to have all the information you need to enjoy it. More complex and in depth doesn't equate to a more enjoyable story for the masses in a mmorpg format that's not laid out (like ffxiv) around story/lore.
    Last edited by TheLucky1; 2021-08-04 at 09:24 AM.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by clexecute View Post

    People are upset because Shadowlands has retconned a large part of Warcraft's roots. Warcraft 3 has pretty much been retconned. The entire reason Sylvanas had an anger towards Arthas was because he killed her and most the high elves going to res Kel Thuzad under the instruction of dreadlords/Nerzhul. Her entire story arc started with vengeance.

    Fast forward 20 years and here we are, what actually happened was the Jailer was controlling the dreadlords who were controlling Nerzhul who was controlling Arthas who was controlling KT. So in actuality the Jailer is responsible for Sylvanas' situation, but she still stands by him in a raid with Nerzhul AND KT in it. She is now allies with the person who orchestrated it, the person who dictated how it would happen, and the person who was resurrected as a result of her death.
    Exactly this.

    We are talking about absurdity.

    It’s not just low quality story. We could get past that, every franchise has its ups and downs.

    We are presented with an abomination of a story, which without reason not just “retcons”.. retcon is not the right word.. SL lore is not merely “Retroactive continuity”

    Retcons would be allowed by the community if they at least made sense and respected our intelligence.

    Right now we have lore that DOES NOT MAKE SENSE., thereby destroying previous lore by removing any sense of continuity.

    And the reason is because current writers just want to USE/ABUSE the “cool” factors/characters of the established lore just to prop-up their poorly made new creations.

  15. #195
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    I loved Kyrian quest line how it is teaching compassion. Maybe this is what we all need in the current times in the place where our world is now. Now I know that joining Kyrians was the right choice for me since the very beginning no mater if it was good for a frost mage spec I played. All I wanted is to stay close to my fluffy clouds! Now I am casting supernovas while bathing in Arcane radiance of the endless Cosmos! What a perfect place to be! Say what you will about the story but I love it.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    TBC writing makes SL look good.
    TBC writing didn't get in the way of enjoying the rest of the content, that's all it required to do.

    WoW needs to be a compelling world, not a compelling story. Instead, WoW tries to be something it's not. It's not supposed to be a TV show where a few protagonists experience riveting plot twists. All players ask for is a place to escape into, away from reality. That's the value of an MMO. An immersive world with lots of shenanigans going on. At no point do protagonists need to save the universe for this to happen.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    I loved Kyrian quest line how it is teaching compassion. Maybe this is what we all need in the current times in the place where our world is now. Now I know that joining Kyrians was the right choice for me since the very beginning no mater if it was good for a frost mage spec I played. All I wanted is to stay close to my fluffy clouds! Now I am casting supernovas while bathing in Arcane radiance of the endless Cosmos! What a perfect place to be! Say what you will about the story but I love it.
    So how did you feel about the Kyrian quest to go foster a better relationship with the Forsworn... by beating them until they submitted?

  18. #198
    Warchief Progenitor Aquarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    So how did you feel about the Kyrian quest to go foster a better relationship with the Forsworn... by beating them until they submitted?
    Yea that felt kinda weird. I have a slight belief that basically all Covenants including Brokers and Attendants are hiding something that isn’t nice. We will find out.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    Yea that felt kinda weird. I have a slight belief that basically all Covenants including Brokers and Attendants are hiding something that isn’t nice. We will find out.
    Honestly I don't think any of the covenants are hiding anything. It's just that we're glossing over the implications of some very blatant details. Kyrian and the losingh memories/identity was a weird point when SL info was leaking and spurred some discussion around these parts then. Venthyr shenanigans had some hidden info that was very much a part of the storyline in the region and for their campaign quests and bled into other storylines. The Necrolords are very upfront with Might makes Right. The wild hunt is almost the MOST metal of the 4 main groups with how they culled their own anima sources to sustain their realm.

    That said I'm expecting more revelations on how these cosmic entities are going to manage lesser beings.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    So how did you feel about the Kyrian quest to go foster a better relationship with the Forsworn... by beating them until they submitted?
    This really sounds like Blizz idea of a healthy relationship...

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