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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrys View Post
    Please try reading what I have said at all
    He can't read. He can't comprehend anything or base his claims on anything either. He is just a bad player with too much time on his hands, but instead of getting good he sucks his own... agenda.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Temp name View Post
    wat
    You do realize that most encounters don't have constant ticking damage that needs to be healed (and those that do doesn't have that damage tuned around needing all your healers to actively heal it) ?
    Soulrender, Painsmith and guardian all have passive ticking damage on your raid, but that gets taken care of by 1 or 2 of your healers while the rest are just there to do dps and pop CDs at the right time so the actually dangerous parts won't kill you.

    In literally every fight you have downtime where there's not much damage going out, but you still bring 4-5 healers so you can heal and have CDs for all the dangerous parts.
    Having healing requirements tuned around all your healers needing to heal 100% of the time would be awful because it would mean you have 0 downtime, and the enrage is now when your healers run out of mana instead of anything interesting (again like Painsmith or guardian).
    Oh and if one of your healers dies because they fucked up mechanics? Oops, you just wiped because the others can't keep up anymore
    Healers healing 100% of the time is what has been the case for most of WoWs existance, healer damage has been completely useless until last expansion because it was only slightly not useless anymore, its a simple fact in all WoW content healers are not required to do damage, its simply just bad gameplay design by blizzard to even allow healers to have damage to be slightly relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrys View Post
    As to the first point - by all means play the game how you want to play it. You are objectively less skilled than a healer who is willing to play optimally though.
    Too many healers means noone parses well, less healers and more dps means everyone in the raid will have better logs, logs are a main focus on farm content, only a skilled healer can get purple or higher logs, a terrible healer will be lucky to maintain blue logs. All parses matter as you wont get in a good guild without them, and can use them to improve yourself further and try pushing higher.

    Doing damage or not doing damage as a healer has nothing to do with skill, its a choice to do it and skill doesnt come into it, there is nothing optimal about healers doing damage in the slightest.

    The whole point is healer damage is not needed to clear the content WoW has to offer, i dont mind healers being able to do damage but it should hurt your mana management if you decide to do it, the best times WoW had with healing was WotlK/Cata/MoP where you didnt get a chance to do much else but heal.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-08-16 at 10:51 PM.
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  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    The whole point is healer damage is not needed to clear the content WoW has to offer, i dont mind healers being able to do damage but it should hurt your mana management if you decide to do it, the best times WoW had with healing was WotlK/Cata/MoP where you didnt get a chance to do much else but heal.
    You mean back when priests and druids would afk for spirit regen and wand/auto for JoW procs or OoC procs? Or does that damage not matter?
    Or in Cata when shamans would spam lightning bolt as often as possible cause of telluric currents?
    Or Paladins keeping up JoL through spamming judgements and using hybrid dps/hps talents?

    Yep no time to do anything but heal here bois lets call it a day and move on....

    More on topic of your posts, I'm really beginning to question the level you play at in current wow, you have cited doing "server first" things a few times over this horrendous thread but you don't really seem to understand how healer minimums in raids work or why they are what they are. Very few fights have consistent raid dmg levels to heal. Healing requirements go up down throughout combat and the number of healers brought in organized content is usually based on how many healer CDs are needed to keep the raid up through the toughest moments.

    What about the rest of the fight though? Usually on the pull there is almost nothing for healers to do but dps. Raid damage starts either non existent or very low and incoming tank dmg is low because they have full cds and AM available to them. Do you propose healers should just afk in this time? Them contributing to dps in times of low activity makes the fight better for everyone and push times can often make healer parses better as well. (IE BL uptime or more optimal CD usage). Are you also against dps using healing abilities to keep themselves or the raid alive? Should a moonkin never Hotw rejuv spam even when the boss isnt targetable?

    You are right btw because you are pressed back in a corner and depending on one word in all your arguments and thats "required". None of the content in wow is hard enough that you need to squeeze every drop of juice from every player in your raid. Most the people ive seen in this thread are not arguing against your word choice and are pointing out its purely beneficially for healers to dps. They are correct.

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Healers healing 100% of the time is what has been the case for most of WoWs existance, healer damage has been completely useless until last expansion because it was only slightly not useless anymore, its a simple fact in all WoW content healers are not required to do damage, its simply just bad gameplay design by blizzard to even allow healers to have damage to be slightly relevant.



    Too many healers means noone parses well, less healers and more dps means everyone in the raid will have better logs, logs are a main focus on farm content, only a skilled healer can get purple or higher logs, a terrible healer will be lucky to maintain blue logs. All parses matter as you wont get in a good guild without them, and can use them to improve yourself further and try pushing higher.

    Doing damage or not doing damage as a healer has nothing to do with skill, its a choice to do it and skill doesnt come into it, there is nothing optimal about healers doing damage in the slightest.

    The whole point is healer damage is not needed to clear the content WoW has to offer, i dont mind healers being able to do damage but it should hurt your mana management if you decide to do it, the best times WoW had with healing was WotlK/Cata/MoP where you didnt get a chance to do much else but heal.
    Sorry mate, its not possible to have a constructive conversation about this if you aren't going to read a word I say or at least engage in good faith. I would agree with Elbob below that it seems very unlikely you do any sort of difficult content at all. That is fine - not everyone needs to be in Limit - but you have at the at the very least implied you are raiding at a decent level.

  5. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Healers healing 100% of the time is what has been the case for most of WoWs existance,
    Uh.. no.

    No it hasn't.
    Vanilla through cata healers stopped casting completely to regen
    Starting in MoP healers did damage during downtime because it was mana neutral, and was semi-required in CMs, so it carried over into raids as well

    and again, if you need healers to always be healing to survive a raid encounter, then if a single healer dies, it's a wipe because the others can't keep up. There is *always* downtime in raid encounters where not a lot of damage is going out, or it's a patchwerk style fight where the entire point is to push numbers.

    healer damage has been completely useless until last expansion because it was only slightly not useless anymore, its a simple fact in all WoW content healers are not required to do damage, its simply just bad gameplay design by blizzard to even allow healers to have damage to be slightly relevant.
    They're not required to, but they might as well do it, since it's free damage.
    And is it bad design? Maybe according to you, but I like it. I like having something to do when I'm not healing
    And "until last expansion" is just laughable.. Healers have always been capable of doing okay damage when they actually try
    Last edited by Temp name; 2021-08-17 at 10:46 AM.

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    I've yet to see a 15 Tyra Stradama done with no healer - and it's just one example of many. Maybe in some weird self-heal/immune comp? But yeah, if you have strong DPS and cooridnated kicks, most things will die before they can hurt you. That's nothing new. Thing is, in an average key you will have players taking damage. It's basically a given.

    In general, I don't argue against what you're saying. The best of the best do many things average players will never be able to - but should it really concern them? If you see a bunch of kids playing a game of football in the backyard, you don't go lecture them on how professionals do it, you just let them have fun. So let it be known that no, in a ~15 key, you don't have to DPS, at all. And you don't need to aspire to be like the best of the best. If your aspirations end on a 15 key, just learn to heal and dodge mechanics, and you're good to go. I'll never understand the mmo mentality that you constantly HAVE TO improve. You don't, and you don't even need to if you just stick to your level of play. That's why context is important. The thread question has two answers, depending on the context. The answers are:
    1) [in the context of normal play] No, you don't have to DPS as a healer.
    2) [in the context of pushing keys as high as possible] Yes, you have to DPS as a healer. And a lot more, like playing a healer class that can dish out respectable DPS.
    without any healer its probably impossible.

    but last season i did one 16 PF with literaly 170 itlv resto shammy . ofc rest of team was in 220+ gear and properly coordinated on voice comme - managed to time it without issuses .

    thats why when i see people who fail there geared to the teeths and blame blizzard for it - its just lol.

  7. #327
    Healers have to dps now? You can be a good healer even if you dont dps. I think people are mixing up ”good” with ”excellent”.

  8. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    I think there's a reasonable discussion to be had on how the role is supposed to work. Right now when I tank, I tend to do more healing and more dps than my healer. It's really unsatisfying to feel like you're not really reaching your potential as a healer. When you're able to do 8k hps and you end up doing 3.5k hps and 2k dps, that's just lame and feels poorly designed.
    While I don't have a problem with tanks having some self-healing, I find it really quite depressing when I'm healing m+ runs and the tank has vastly more healing than I do. The change from armour and avoidance to absorption and healing for tanks has not improved the game, IMO. Also, in content that the group does not considerably outgear I should not be going through the run competing with the tank for DPS and knowing that the only reason I couldn't do the run as Elemental was a couple of trash pulls and one boss (and I do wonder if some weeks a couple of hybrid DPS wouldn't be sufficient). Heck, sometimes if there's a stuff up our Warrior tank and Fury DPS kill some bosses on their own from ~30% on non-Tyrannical weeks.

    I think that if there are periods in a fight where no healing is required, healers should still be having to ask themselves if they can afford the mana to DPS, rather than DPSing being a no-brainer. Healing in WoW is supposed to include mana as a consideration, and was never supposed to be ABC - 'Always Be Casting' was a DPS mantra, not a healing one. Lulls in healing were opportunities to look forward and work out what was going to happen and what cooldowns you were going to need to use, and who should be pre-shielded, etc. Or, if you you something like a Paladin in Wrath, a chance to take a quick breather, check your position, and reapply short-duration spells before the back-to-back healing spam started again.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    I mean, did you ever try to heal a ~15 key with a PUG of random people? I swear there's so much to heal there, and more often than not!
    There can't be more healing to do, because the skill difference between a random PUG and a premade with capable tank, coordinated kicks and good defensives usage is vast, and I mean, vast like a damn ocean. If you make it so that a healer in a good group has to be on his toes all the time, no PUG will ever be able to finish a single run.
    Maybe pugs with no comms, etc. shouldn't normally be able to complete m+15s, just as they're not expected to complete mythic level raids. I do not see why some top-end content (and m+15s are top-end, considering that that's where the gear tops out) should be puggable when the other types generally aren't.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gestopft View Post
    Now, I think there maaaay be a way to (at least partially) counteract this, but it comes with its own downsides too. Basically, what you would do is increase everybody's health- you could then have a greater proportion of incoming damage beg unavoidable, and players would spend more time injured. Mistakes would be less immediately punishing to the player(s) making them (since more abilities would be survivable), but then the healer would have to "catch-up" before the next unavoidable damage event. However, this would take a good deal of the urgency out of healing, and lessen the impact of the moment-to-moment decision making that many healers find thrilling.
    There's a way to fix that - the tank takes constant damage, so if you don't stay on top of it, you won't have time to bring up the rest of the group between those waves of party-wide damage. Also, you would have to manage your spell choice so as to stay between going oom healing faster than necessary and not healing enough through being too cautious with mana. Give healers decent 'oh, crap!' mana regen cooldowns, but with cooldowns long enough they can only use them on a few pulls so they are actually for emergencies and not something you should use all the time, and it gets a lot more interesting.

    If this is set up right, healers will really appreciate DPS who help by hitting damage mitigation cooldowns during the damage waves, and/or throw out some pinch heals when the tank's getting hammered and they're trying to hold the whole party's health up enough they don't go down. As it is, most of the time DPS can just forget about that stuff unless it really is challenging content.

    Challenging content for healers shouldn't mean 'content where I have to find time to DPS'. It should mean 'content where I have to heal smart, and balance throughput with mana'.

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    without any healer its probably impossible.

    but last season i did one 16 PF with literaly 170 itlv resto shammy . ofc rest of team was in 220+ gear and properly coordinated on voice comme - managed to time it without issuses .

    thats why when i see people who fail there geared to the teeths and blame blizzard for it - its just lol.

    If a Grievous mists 19 (last season( can be done without a healer (or 17 halls, 16 ToP), I see no reason that any 15 couldn't be done sans healer

    https://www.wowhead.com/news/no-heal...-healer-321693

  10. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Temp name View Post
    Oh and if one of your healers dies because they fucked up mechanics? Oops, you just wiped because the others can't keep up anymore
    How is that different from a fight where if one of your DPS dies you wipe because you can't make the DPS check? Plenty of those in WoW's raiding history. Or how about the standard situation for about the last decade where if a tank dies and you're out of battle rezzes, you wipe because you MUST have two tanks up and functional? How it okay for losing a tank or DPS to force a wipe, but not okay for losing a healer to do so? Talk about healers being second-class citizens.

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrax View Post
    Healers have to dps now? You can be a good healer even if you dont dps. I think people are mixing up ”good” with ”excellent”.
    I don't think anyone's position on this is that you *have* to dps. Rather it is an aspect of healer skill, and if you ignore it, you won't be as good as the healers who know when and how to dps effectively. Its also has a significant enough impact on most forms of content such that if you ignore it, you probably (but not necessarily, as being sufficiently skilled in other areas could make up for the deficit) aren't even a good healer

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    It is not required in any content, there is 3 healers that include dmg for thier actual healing but the others gain nothing to thier healing through dmg, infact they should just remove healers doing dps completely, a healers job is healing and not have to do dps because players in the raid are not playing a dps class as well as they should.
    Just flat out wrong...

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by Temp name View Post
    I'm curious as to why though..
    As a dps your job isn't to heal
    As a healer your job (in your mind) isn't to dps

    Why are you okay with one but not the other?
    I can't speak for him, but it's pretty easy to tell you why from my perspective:
    -While a mob is alive, there will rarely be a time when you can't be actively dpsing (outside of scripted intermissions).
    -While a mob is alive, there will be many times when you can't be actively healing (because health bars aren't doing down).

    That's really all there is to it. And if a dps has an opportunity to do something like dispel, pop an off-heal, or pop a personal/group defensive and they choose not to, they're just as poor a player as a healer who outright refuses to dps.

  14. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    How is that different from a fight where if one of your DPS dies you wipe because you can't make the DPS check? Plenty of those in WoW's raiding history. Or how about the standard situation for about the last decade where if a tank dies and you're out of battle rezzes, you wipe because you MUST have two tanks up and functional? How it okay for losing a tank or DPS to force a wipe, but not okay for losing a healer to do so? Talk about healers being second-class citizens.
    Because they are. Healers are brought because you need them, not because you want them.
    A healer doesn't kill the boss, but you need them to keep the people who do, alive

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    It's really pathetic how healers have been unbalanced for a very long time (paladin has been in every wf kill but 1 since I believe wrath, Shaman or Disc have taken up most of the remaining spot over the past five years, RDruid, Mistweaver, and Holy Priest have barely been represented at all).
    And that also comes down to healer utility
    If a paladin does as much healing as a druid, why should I bring a druid when the paladin offers more dps, and also has damage reduction CDs?
    Why should I bring a holy priest when the disc will do more dps and has a lot of absorbs
    Why should I bring a monk when a shaman does the same healing, while offering things like Spirit link and other strong CDs?

    In order for you to want to bring druid/holy priest/monk they need to do more healing than the others, or have another niche they excel at.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    I can't speak for him, but it's pretty easy to tell you why from my perspective:
    -While a mob is alive, there will rarely be a time when you can't be actively dpsing (outside of scripted intermissions).
    -While a mob is alive, there will be many times when you can't be actively healing (because health bars aren't doing down).

    That's really all there is to it. And if a dps has an opportunity to do something like dispel, pop an off-heal, or pop a personal/group defensive and they choose not to, they're just as poor a player as a healer who outright refuses to dps.
    And yet he likes to do one while having to do the other made him put away being a healer..

    Bit weird, but hey, humans are weird

  15. #335
    Meh I enjoyed healer when it wasn't a pseudo DPS. It's why I don't play them anymore, I wanted to heal not dps.

  16. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Temp name View Post
    Because they are. Healers are brought because you need them, not because you want them.
    A healer doesn't kill the boss, but you need them to keep the people who do, alive
    That logic applies to the tanks, too. You only want them because without them the mobs kill the DPS and healers. So why aren't tanks treated the same as healers? Instead, losing a tank is a wipe if you can't get them back up in almost every fight, and fights are designed so that you need two (in raids) or one (in five-mans) no more, no less (and Blizzard considers it a failure of design if players find a way around this).

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrys View Post
    Sorry mate, its not possible to have a constructive conversation about this if you aren't going to read a word I say or at least engage in good faith. I would agree with Elbob below that it seems very unlikely you do any sort of difficult content at all. That is fine - not everyone needs to be in Limit - but you have at the at the very least implied you are raiding at a decent level.
    I do cutting edge content and have done realm first content in the past so im capable of the hardest content WoW has to offer, im not saying i as a healer dont do damage as needed when i know the fights well enough, what i am saying its not needed and it shouldnt be designed that way in the first place, healing was most fun back in WotlK where you couldnt even waste 1 single gcd or a tank might die.

    My whole point is that the content can be cleared regardless of a healer doing some damage and that includes mythic end raid bosses in the current tier, its a healers choice if they want to do damage or not and does not reflect skill in anyway on the player because doing some damage has nothing to do with skill.
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  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    what i am saying its not needed and it shouldnt be designed that way in the first place

    And here, ladies and gentlemen, the crux of almost 10 pages of back and forth.


    I am in agreement that it shouldn't be, but that doesn't change the current design favors it. And because a distinct advantage comes from when healers doing DPS both in high Mythic+ and Mythic Raiding sets them apart from healers who don't at all (and thus those dungeon/raid groups), the proof is there that if they can then they should.


    My whole point is that the content can be cleared regardless of a healer doing some damage

    So, once again... they can but it's not optimal and can be, quite often, detrimental. And the point of context here is higher end content.


    I mean your experience in your M+ and raids is certainly your experience... but there is an entirely opposite experience being had out there which accomplishes the same goal but in some cases... quicker and more efficiently. Take that for what you will.
    Last edited by KOUNTERPARTS; 2021-08-17 at 11:25 PM.

  19. #339
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    I've gotten so used to seeing how high I can push my dps, I am now finding myself getting a bit miffed when I'm in groups that require so much healing that I CAN'T dps. Kind of ridiculous on my part, but, there it is.

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  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    I do cutting edge content and have done realm first content in the past so im capable of the hardest content WoW has to offer, im not saying i as a healer dont do damage as needed when i know the fights well enough, what i am saying its not needed and it shouldnt be designed that way in the first place, healing was most fun back in WotlK where you couldnt even waste 1 single gcd or a tank might die.

    My whole point is that the content can be cleared regardless of a healer doing some damage and that includes mythic end raid bosses in the current tier, its a healers choice if they want to do damage or not and does not reflect skill in anyway on the player because doing some damage has nothing to do with skill.
    I'm afraid I'm a bit sceptical of that claim. Its not the damage thing (or at least not that alone) which makes me doubt you by the way, its the fact that no decent raider thinks healer parses are worth jack shit.

    Obviously you do, do some damage (you've admitted so yourself). Why do you do it, if it isn't optimal? If it is the optimal way to play, how cannot it not be a part of healer skill? All mythic bosses can be completed with all sorts of non-optimal play - that doesn't support your point in the slightest. Hell, you can do Mythic Sylvanus with a guy afk the whole fight, just because you can do something without it doesn't mean its not optimal. If its optimal, its part of the skillset.

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