WoW pvp is the best pvp ever created. But I can't pvp unless I grind 12 hours a day.

[melzas]

I just don't get why they keep adding character power behind rating.... So people who are good at PvP get more raw power on top of it creating even bigger gap between hardcore and casuals? 9.1.5 gives you best gear at 2400 rating, like seriously, people who are skilled and dedicated enough to reach it surely need even more character power to destroy casuals?

The best system would be to give good players best gear faster, but eventually everyone who plays consistently should be able to be on same power level so that PvP gets to be about skill eventually.

[Cyi]

My favorite thing ever is to jump on my Mage and push 30 buttons with my left hand, kicking ass while steering with my right hand. But I have a life so I literally cannot ever pvp again. I wish I could jump onto a wow PVP Bg at the end of my work day and fight a couple of rounds. I wish they would create a grindless version of PVP. Theres no point in having gear levels in the quick mode. Just have every class equal item lvl and have the game designers balance the classes after that. I would like to jump on a rogue and have a difficult battle with a paladin. Or get on a frost mage and fight with my skills and not die because of my item lvl. It would literally be the most popular PC game of all time if they did this and created it with wow 2.0. The current design is so outdated because you cant ever have a fair fight unless you spend all your waking hours of the day grinding gear just to stay even with everyone else. I find it very disappointing that Im a good pvp player and I cant even play the game because of the idiots who designed it that way.

I literally got into PvP a few weeks ago and already have a fully competitive set and am in middle tier brackets, all with playing what I would consider far less than I did raiding.

For those that think "templates" are the solution, I would ponder if you would feel the same if raid gear was all made equal once you entered a raid? Where does the challenge and reward come from if not from the gear drops and progression? Its the same thing for PvP, except people dont like getting owned by a better geared player, however news flash, I remember getting owned by fully raid geared players back in original Naxx days. It doesnt matter where the gear comes from, there will always be people with better.

Bottom line, if you want to get into PvP, dedicate your time in game to just that. I mean honor falls from the sky and you can have a full honor set in probably a day or two, but lets just say a week for real casual play. From that point it is just a matter of playing PvP stuff and the better gear will work its way to you.

I was genuinely surprised how quickly and easy the PvP gearing process was and how NOT grindy the process was.

[Kagthul]

Think about it. Realistically, all you had to do in WoD was get 10 weekly arena wins and you were pretty much good to go and could enjoy PvP without fear of falling behind and even if you failed to do your games for whatever reason you had a catch-up conquest cap.

You didnt even need to do Arena. If you did the two Ashran Weeklies, and daily Random BG First-Win, and won six other games, you could hit the conquest cap. And you got two epic/arena iLevel pieces (one from killing Tremblade the first time, one from the weekly). You could also fully Honor Gear in 5-6 hours without ever fighting another player, So the barrier to entry was non-existent. And if you wanted to, you could get another epic/conquest iLevel piece from the FFA Arena at the PvP building every week, and another from winning 3 RBGs (weekly quest/chest on the third win).

So it was extremely friendly to both casuals (who could still hit the conquest cap every week with just 3-4 ish hours of play spread over the week, +2 guaranteed items without even doing Arena), and rewarding to Hardcores (who could get the RBG weekly, FFA Arena items, and a chance for Conquest items to drop from Arena boxes at higher ratings) and would therefore fully gear much more quickly.

For all of WoDs other faults, its PvP gearing system was the best it ever got, especially with the variable iLevel making PvP gear non-viable for raids for the most part (the Conquest gear in the last season was the same as Heroic Raids because there were three seasons but only two raid tiers). It was casual friendly, hardcore-rewarding, and alt-friendly (due to hitting the basic CQ cap being so relatively easy and honor-gearing in 6 hours). The gear was “OK” for PvE (enough for the then new Mythic Dungeons or to get you by in a Normal Raid without being a liability, but PvE gear was still better) but was best for PvP.

Moving away from that system was pure idiocy on Blizzard’s part. Especially since the “normalized” stats in Legion actually made gear matter MORE, not less (we EXTENSIVELY did that math in this forum. It was worse. By a LOT), and then lack of worth while rewards from PvP cratered participation - a literal 90% drop.

[Itori]

Most of the people here never played guild wars 1 pvp, or age of camelot in general, WoW pvp pales in comparison to many other mmos, WoW was just more popular so most players never got to see real enjoyment.

[Palapop]

I miss pre-Legion days.

You farm your honor gear relatively quickly. And then you unlock your conquest gear weekly. Or if you're on an alt, you could get full set within few days of no-lifeless grind.

And you were dominant with pvp gear over anyone. YES, there were some pve heroes, but in my eyes it's completely fine if someone had end-game gear to be up to par with someone with honor/conquest gear.

[Kagthul]

Most of the people here never played guild wars 1 pvp, or age of camelot in general, WoW pvp pales in comparison to many other mmos, WoW was just more popular so most players never got to see real enjoyment.

DaoC’s actual PvP balance/gameplay was no better than WoWs (worse in a lot of ways) but the way it all came together in RvR made up for it. Macro scale it was great, Micro scale it was sorta shit. But you played it for the Macro level stuff so for the most part it was a more enjoyable experience than WoW, certainly.

GW1 PvP was… more like a MoBA than an MMO (there was, in fact, nothing “massively multiplayer” about GW1 at all) but in that light, it was quite good.

Shadowbane was the only MMO PvP that was well balanced on both a Micro scale and Macro scale…. (Especially since all the best gear was created by player cities and easily obtainable)… except for the part where the Macro PvP and Sieges turned into an unplayable slideshow when you got past about 40-50 total players. If they could have handled the technical issues (servers at the time just couldnt) it would have been amazing. At no point in a 1v1 did i ever feel like i was outmatched to the point of being marginalized - yeah there were matchups that were harder (Like stealth-based Rogue-base classes getting countered by the Scout class (also a Rogue) because they could spot you in stealth from a fair distance) but it was never this nearly-unwinnable uphill battle that WoW frequently gets (Vanilla Warlock pre-Soul Link/Demo rework Vs. A well handled rogue or warrior being an auto-loss, Naked rogues killing Tier-3/HWL geared anyone, etc).

Which is especially notable since Shadowbane had a dizzying amount of class combinations (the four base classes could all pick up one of multiple different advanced/secondary classes (i forget what they were called) and some could be chosen by more than one class (you could have a Rogue/Assassin or a Mage/Assassin) - AND each character could pick up up to three mini-classes called Disiciplines which added 3-5 skills, and were often race/lore locked to specific class combinations. And despite that it was still pretty well balanced at 1V1 to XvX until you hit the slideshow.

And for all its other faults, SWTOR’s (around launch, at least) diminishing-returns/cc-immunity mechanic was bar none the best (bar above your head that filled up based on the duration of the CC, regardless of type. When it filled, you were immune to further CC while the bar drained, and both you and the enemy could see it).

[blapdris]

They tried templates years ago in Legion.

The loud PvP twits hated them because they couldn’t grind all the gears to kill noobs with.

Templates, however, we’re a godsend for people who had skill but no time to grind.

This. People love an unfair advantage.

[Spyrith]

Most of the people here never played guild wars 1 pvp, or age of camelot in general, WoW pvp pales in comparison to many other mmos, WoW was just more popular so most players never got to see real enjoyment.

I always loved PvP in Lineage 2, not just the actual mechanics but also the fact that pvp there used to have consequences, especially mass pvp. If you lost a fight to an enemy alliance, they would proceed to farm a valuable raid boss, castle or farming spot. It was also so unscripted, and random. Like a mass pvp could happen anywhere at any time.

[DechCJC]

You know, I swear that WoW PvP actually starts pretty damn acceptable in the first season of most expansions. Yeah, there's still bullshit, nonsense one shots or teams that never die; But without all the multipliers that come into play with the additional systems Blizzards adds with patches, I legitimately don't think it's that bad. I guess the most frustrating part is that the 'fix' usually seems relatively simple but Blizzard takes half a year to address it.

This being compared to other MMO's at a rated level, not a game designed for an e-sport.

[Tarba]

Any pvp where skill is not the only factor is horseshit.
Wow pvp has always been horseshit. But also most mmo pvp are shit too.

[Djuntas]

They tried templates years ago in Legion.

The loud PvP twits hated them because they couldn’t grind all the gears to kill noobs with.

Templates, however, we’re a godsend for people who had skill but no time to grind.

This 100%. I never understood why it was removed.

[crusadernero]

They have two choices:

1. Put back templates so everyone is on a more level playing field.

2. Make grinding gear that is powerful enough relativly easy.

As it is now, its shit to grind up decent pvp gear. It takes so long time and in the process you get roflstomped in every game.

as in most mmos, pvp is always scuffed one way or another. Especially for new players coming in. Its not fun being nuked every game.

[hulkgor]

Expecting 'fair' or 'balanced' pvp in an mmo is useless, it just doesn't work.

I rather go play a moba or a shooter for my pvp urges.

[LedZeppelin]

templates didnt work because some classes best stat would be haste and then the game would give you 5%

[Kagthul]

templates didnt work because some classes best stat would be haste and then the game would give you 5%

It was a lot worse than that. Throughout most of WoW’s history, the difference between beginner gear (honor gear) and top end gear (conquest and conquest iLevel avail from Wintergrasp, etc) was one “tier” - 12 to 15 iLevels, or roughly 8-9.5% stat difference. Templates set your stats to the base, at an iLevel floor that never changed for the entire expansion, and then added a flat percentage per ten iLevels above the floor your gear was. By the time the last patch came around, a character who had been “keeping up” would average 170 iLevels above the floor - 17% stat difference.

And with no “starter” PvP gear that could be easily obtained post hitting the level cap, youd be pretty well forced to enter PvP at the iLevel floor and face people who were, pre-Artifact, almost 20% more powerful than you. And then the Artifact compounded it - any stat benefits from the artifact stacked on top of the template multiplicatively. So a fresh max level character was often 40+% behind in stats compared to someone who was just keeping up with the iLevel curve.

It was a total fucking disaster and made gear matter MORE than it ever had before.

Then Blizzard (very typically) didnt learn from that mistake and you end up in the current situation - where once again instead of a single “tier” between starter (easily obtained) gear and max level fear, theres a massive iLevel spread and people are getting shitstomped.

[OrangeJuice]

This 100%. I never understood why it was removed.

Top end PvPers hated templates because they were boring. They don't allow you to customize your character by playing with stats, even the ones that aren't optimal. Its just fun, especially when you're already playing at the highest level. But the worst part was templates created FOTM rerolling, and heavy counter comping via sniping/dodging.

Gearing sucks now because it takes 2-3 times more wins to cap your weekly, and you have to already be in the higher end brackets to upgrade it. Then you have RNG sockets or the rep grind for them which nobody likes either. To top it off you have to run torghast for legendary materials which again nobody wants to do.

Blizzard needs to just increase conquest rewards to match older expansions, i.e 10 wins/week, and then remove the tiered ranking system thats tied to ilvl. I think older expacs gave you half the conq for a loss? I might be spewing bs I dont really remember all that well, but if they did then bring that back too!

[ClownPrincess]

Top end PvPers hated templates because they were boring.

Top end pvpers are a minority of players, therefore their opinions shouldn't matter that much.

Anyway, the reason it was a bad system is that it didn't even actually fix what it was supposed to, which was gear disparity, because the templates still scaled with your equipped ilevel. So it didn't at all solve what they set out to solve, and created other problems besides. And I'm absolutely tired that this half assed, failed experiment is still used today as evidence that players don't want templates.

Ultimately, PvP is fun when your actions during the fight decide the outcome. When the outcome is decided by the numbers on your gear, it isn't fun.
But blizzard clings on the dogma that "this is a rpg, gear should matter" and this is as wrong as saying "this is a rpg, everything should be decided by rolls of dice". If you take the literal meaning of rpg, it just mean that people have roles. Most of the other trapping of RPGs are abstractions of the world the players evolve in. For instance, if there is no aiming mechanic possible because it's a pen and paper rpg and the world is an abstraction that exists only in the mind of the players? Use a roll of dice to pretend like the player is aiming.

Having to loot gear (and leveling, for that matter, even though the later has been thankfully toned down to near meaninglessness) to create a sense of progression is something you do when there is no natural learning curve in the gameplay. There is one in pvp, so the "gear progression" is just an annoyance that makes the real learning curve miserable.

Of course, I guess the designers would say "it's about the journey, not the destination". So why is the journey so miserable then?

Besides, there's an obvious solution that would work while still letting people customize their stats: force everyone's gear to the same ilevel in pvp. The tech to scale gear stats depending on the ilevel is already there. There is literally no valid reason not to do this, except of course clinging on the hope that players not having fun will somehow motivate them to grind their way towards having it, making them play longer. I like to believe that the majority of players (or potential players) aren't masochists though.

[OrangeJuice]

Top end pvpers are a minority of players, therefore their opinions shouldn't matter that much.

Top end logic right here.

[loras]

My favorite thing ever is to jump on my Mage and push 30 buttons with my left hand, kicking ass while steering with my right hand. But I have a life so I literally cannot ever pvp again. I wish I could jump onto a wow PVP Bg at the end of my work day and fight a couple of rounds. I wish they would create a grindless version of PVP. Theres no point in having gear levels in the quick mode. Just have every class equal item lvl and have the game designers balance the classes after that. I would like to jump on a rogue and have a difficult battle with a paladin. Or get on a frost mage and fight with my skills and not die because of my item lvl. It would literally be the most popular PC game of all time if they did this and created it with wow 2.0. The current design is so outdated because you cant ever have a fair fight unless you spend all your waking hours of the day grinding gear just to stay even with everyone else. I find it very disappointing that Im a good pvp player and I cant even play the game because of the idiots who designed it that way.

Pretty much sums it up.
Had loads of fun in Legion thanks to templates, could just hopon a barely geared alt and... not die instantly to every e-peen out there.

The consequence was that i was a one gnome reign of terror for the horde, so naturally i feel lkke i mistakenly made asignificant contribution to the end of that system.

[Nuciek]

I think there are solutions to all of the problems mentioned in the thread and some of them are already in game.

I understand that some people want to have better gear for their achievements and Blizzard wants us to have some kind of progress but at the same the most balanced and fun PvP is when the gear doesn't matter. And solution to this problem is simple and it's already in-game. That's gear scaling in PvP (but even in more drastic way).

My example of what I think it should be:
(Non-PvP ilvl -> current PvP ilvl -> my suggestion PvP ilvl)
Honor gear
177 -> 213 -> 233 (base)
184 -> 216 -> 235
190 -> 220 -> 237
197 -> 223 -> 239
203 -> 226 -> 241
210 -> 229 -> 243
216 -> 233 -> 246 (last upgrade)

Conquest gear
220 -> 233 -> 246 (unrated)
226 -> 239 -> 249 (1000)
229 -> 242 -> 251 (1200)
233 -> 246 -> 253 (1400)
236 -> 249 -> 255 (1600)
239 -> 252 -> 257 (1800)
242 -> 255 -> 257 (1950)
246 -> 259 -> 259 (2100)
249 -> 259 -> 259 (2400)

This way it wouldn't affect PvE, there would still be gear progression but the differences would be a lot less significant. The difference between entry level honor gear and BiS gear would be 26 ilvls instead of 46, for full upgraded honor and unrated conquest gear would be 13 instead of 26. What's also worth mentioning is that 1000 rating (that anyone can get with just playing PvP with no skill required) would give 249 gear that is only 10 ilvl below Duelist/Gladiator gear. While 10 ilvl still makes a difference, it's not a difference that makes you get one-shot or overwhelmed by just a pure gear difference.

The second part of the problem is all the stuff we were forced to do to have our character grow in power that aren't fun - weekly Torghast, assaults, renown weeklies, gated story quests, farming conduits, farming sockets. Solution to this is simple, Blizzard shouldn't connect any character power to weekly/daily chores. We shouldn't feel like we are loosing something because we didn't log for two days and we shouldn't be forced to do content we don't like to do things that we do like. In worst case scenario it should be at least farmable without being gated (like Soul Ashes or Renown right now).