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  1. #261
    M+ being as punishing as it is serves virtually no purpose other than to frustrate players. I really don't even know what they're trying to do with the timer other than make people feel rushed.

    As it stands, I don't actually think Blizzard's current development team knows how to do anything except make "hardcore" competitive content. Their heads are so far up their ass that they can't see what other games are doing to make themselves fun for non-raiders and try to emulate it. We've been running on this "raid or die" mentality with game design for years now, it's not going to change.
    If you reply to me with a full essay I'm probably not going to bother reading it, sorry.

  2. #262
    I think M+ should do away with the timer tbh. For me personally, I hate doing M+ just because it’s a stressful race against the clock. Imagine if raiding was like that? Keep the difficulty scaling, but just make it harder and harder. Maybe have each boss drop gear too?
    Selling myself out below


  3. #263
    Yup, it is.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    I think the issue is less about how high-end content is the only optimal path to obtaining the best gear, but that the alternative to pushing for the best gear is just farming pets and mounts. There's no 'destination' in WoW, it's all about optimization; This problem only snowballs out of effect further with the more expansions they add without re-evaluating their core design philosophies. The journey is rarely enjoyable to the top, and this is where other MMO's are shining where WoW isn't right now.
    I disagree entirely. You can get a couple of 233 pieces from the world boss, your 262 legendary, and the rest in 230 from outdoor world content. The idea that there's nothing between "pushing for the best gear" and "just farming pets and mounts" is patently false. It's not a dichotomy.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    I disagree entirely. You can get a couple of 233 pieces from the world boss, your 262 legendary, and the rest in 230 from outdoor world content. The idea that there's nothing between "pushing for the best gear" and "just farming pets and mounts" is patently false. It's not a dichotomy.
    I’m confused where you’re getting 230 gear from the outside world? Unless you mean the Korthia gear that is 200 and you have to grind for weeks for the catalog research to upgrade it…nawwww
    Selling myself out below


  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Grahamington View Post
    I’m confused where you’re getting 230 gear from the outside world? Unless you mean the Korthia gear that is 200 and you have to grind for weeks for the catalog research to upgrade it…nawwww
    But thats the progress meant for non raiders, so called casual. Would it be fun for those if you were done in two weeks? Different content is meant for different players. Someone who raid heroic and doing m+ 10+ isnt going to progress to Korthia except maybe the first weeks.

    Non raiders/"casuals" got Korthia as a field of progression. And you can upgrade to 220 when you get to Tier2. Which is not much effort.

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I liked CModes a lot. Did it on a number of toons in both MoP and WoD. They were about the same level of difficulty as +3'ing a 15 in current content. But they were also easily "solved" and felt boring once you knew exactly how to min/max your way through it. Don't get me wrong -- I'm not trying to say that cosmetic rewards aren't nice/needed in the game... just that cosmetic rewards on their own often aren't a huge motivation for players to push themselves to do difficult content.
    For me initially it was the challenge, which made it so great. But the cosmetic was also something I wanted. I use several to this day.

    I had not played my druid(as resto) at all for 4 years when I got asked to do the WoD CM modes. Was a challenge for sure, but got the hang of it. But I started way to late so only got 4 of them done. Was going to do the last 4 the day before Legion pre patch(great planning yeah?) then my old computer died. I drove 5 hours each way to get a PC from a guildie, but I came home like 2 hours before shutdown and the others had gone to bed

    Commitment! But to late
    Last edited by Doffen; 2021-08-06 at 10:09 PM.
    - Everything that lives is designed to end. We are perpetually trapped in a never ending spiral of life and death. Is this a curse? Or some kind of punishment? I often think about the god who blessed us with this cryptic puzzle… and wonder if we’ll ever get the chance to kill him.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    For me initially it was the challenge, which made it so great. But the cosmetic was also something I wanted. I use several to this day.

    I had not played my druid(as resto) at all for 4 years when I got asked to do the WoD CM modes. Was a challenge for sure, but got the hang of it. But I started way to late so only got 4 of them done. Was going to do the last 4 the day before Legion pre patch(great planning yeah?) then my old computer died. I drove 5 hours each way to get a PC from a guildie, but I came home like 2 hours before shutdown and the others had gone to bed

    Commitment! But to late
    That sucks. I had a similar story in MoP for my Druid. I'd only boosted my Druid a month or so prior to when my guild took me to go do them. I'd never healed a dungeon in my life but my guildies were like, "don't worry dude, Druids are OP you'll be fine!" The first couple of dungeons were pretty rough and it was stressful as fuck but we got all 9 of em done in a single sitting. Fun times.
    New BiS for 9.1!

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  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    I cannot imagine an opinion being more yikes than this. You literally just want WoW to be easier and for all the people who enjoy challenges can get fucked.
    I think you are confusing observation with advocacy. "The game would have been more successful had it been Casual Paradise" is not the same as saying "I personally want the game to be Casual Paradise". The former is an objective statement divorced from personal preferences, the latter would not be. One can believe the former statement even if one is a hardcore.
    Last edited by Osmeric; 2021-08-11 at 08:24 PM.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Sooner or later everyone sits down to a banquet of consequences." -- Robert Louis Stevenson
    If you didn't get your COVID shot it's probably too late now, you fool.

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    That sucks. I had a similar story in MoP for my Druid. I'd only boosted my Druid a month or so prior to when my guild took me to go do them. I'd never healed a dungeon in my life but my guildies were like, "don't worry dude, Druids are OP you'll be fine!" The first couple of dungeons were pretty rough and it was stressful as fuck but we got all 9 of em done in a single sitting. Fun times.
    Hey, happy for you!

    Which brings me to the point that I think its great to have something to show from different expansion. Like you did that then, and got something to remind you that "hey I did that". I got a teleport to Bloodmaul Slag Mines, but that doesnt stop me from mentioning that when we talk about WoD or similar stuff! Resto druid was OP wasnt it. In WoD too. Didnt feel I struggled even though I had not played it for years. If we didnt time it, dps fault obviously.

    A guildie bought(lol sucka) MoP CM and he got some awesome transmog. When we talk about that and I get envious, I just say mention that he bought it and then I feel better.
    Last edited by Doffen; 2021-08-06 at 10:25 PM.
    - Everything that lives is designed to end. We are perpetually trapped in a never ending spiral of life and death. Is this a curse? Or some kind of punishment? I often think about the god who blessed us with this cryptic puzzle… and wonder if we’ll ever get the chance to kill him.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I think you are confusing observation with advocacy. "The game would have been more successful had it be Casual Paradise" is not the same as saying "I personally want the game to be Casual Paradise". The former is an objective statement divorced from personal preferences, the latter would not be. One can believe the former statement even if one is a hardcore.
    I've never seen any proof any game is more successful being casual... League of legends destroyed its more casual competitors. Counter strike still sits as king.

    What makes you think a casual experience makes money? Especially against the FTP games?

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    I've never seen any proof any game is more successful being casual... League of legends destroyed its more casual competitors. Counter strike still sits as king.

    What makes you think a casual experience makes money? Especially against the FTP games?
    Those are PvP games, not PvE MMOs.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Sooner or later everyone sits down to a banquet of consequences." -- Robert Louis Stevenson
    If you didn't get your COVID shot it's probably too late now, you fool.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Those are PvP games, not PvE MMOs.
    Mmo's that are more casual then wow to date have not been more successful then wow. I have to ask again. Where is this wild notion that catering to casuals is profitable at all it seems just a hope rather then grounded in any kind of reality. A mmo is already a hardcore genre.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    But thats the progress meant for non raiders, so called casual. Would it be fun for those if you were done in two weeks? Different content is meant for different players. Someone who raid heroic and doing m+ 10+ isnt going to progress to Korthia except maybe the first weeks.

    Non raiders/"casuals" got Korthia as a field of progression. And you can upgrade to 220 when you get to Tier2. Which is not much effort.
    Idk about you, but 2 upgrades for me only goes to 213. 200 gear goes to 207 then 213 after 2 upgrades.
    Selling myself out below


  14. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Without the nerfing Cata would have a sub Drop off that would make the WoD drop off look like a small blip. Ghostcrawler did the "Get good or leave" post and the player base was saying "Fine we'll leave."
    It's ironical how they doubled down on that design first with WoD, and now once again with SL.
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  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    I've never seen any proof any game is more successful being casual... League of legends destroyed its more casual competitors. Counter strike still sits as king.

    What makes you think a casual experience makes money? Especially against the FTP games?
    Your example of LoL ignores that it itself is a more casual version of DOTA.

    WoW a more casual version of EQ.

    Yes more casual is not always the answer but there certainly seems to be a level of 'casualness' that beats out 'just make it hardcore'.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Hey, happy for you!

    Which brings me to the point that I think its great to have something to show from different expansion. Like you did that then, and got something to remind you that "hey I did that". I got a teleport to Bloodmaul Slag Mines, but that doesnt stop me from mentioning that when we talk about WoD or similar stuff! Resto druid was OP wasnt it. In WoD too. Didnt feel I struggled even though I had not played it for years. If we didnt time it, dps fault obviously.

    A guildie bought(lol sucka) MoP CM and he got some awesome transmog. When we talk about that and I get envious, I just say mention that he bought it and then I feel better.
    I agree, I do wish there were more cosmetic options to show that you did something in an expansion. They're kind of doing that with the Torghast xmog stuff right now.
    New BiS for 9.1!

    [ twitch ][ Retired Semi-retired as of 2018 ] [ The Official MMO-Champion Bingo Card. ] [ WoW's Community in 2021, illustrated ]
    [ That time I predicted the future...twice. ] [ For a good time, try to differentiate a majority of serious posts here from posts on /r/wowcirclejerk ]

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    Mmo's that are more casual then wow to date have not been more successful then wow. I have to ask again. Where is this wild notion that catering to casuals is profitable at all it seems just a hope rather then grounded in any kind of reality. A mmo is already a hardcore genre.
    It comes from observing the people leaving the game and why they seem to have done so. It also comes from critically examing the hardcore presumption that casuals like being humiliated. Oh, and I think FF14 is close to disproving the "to date" part there. I would not be surprised if it already exceeds WoW if China is excluded.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Sooner or later everyone sits down to a banquet of consequences." -- Robert Louis Stevenson
    If you didn't get your COVID shot it's probably too late now, you fool.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    It's ironical how they doubled down on that design first with WoD, and now once again with SL.
    how did WoD and SL double down on that?

    Normal/HC/M/M+ dungeons, N/H/M raids, WQs.
    Where is the 'get good or leave' in that? Just because the game no longer showers you in BiS gear simply for logging in?
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Your example of LoL ignores that it itself is a more casual version of DOTA.

    WoW a more casual version of EQ.

    Yes more casual is not always the answer but there certainly seems to be a level of 'casualness' that beats out 'just make it hardcore'.
    More casual in what way exactly...? The rule sets are different but beyond the focus on dueling over lane control I dont see one being more casual or hardcore between lol and dota having played both to diamond and plat respectively.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    It comes from observing the people leaving the game and why they seem to have done so. It also comes from critically examing the hardcore presumption that casuals like being humiliated. Oh, and I think FF14 is close to disproving the "to date" part there. I would not be surprised if it already exceeds WoW if China is excluded.
    If they are casual how do you separate frustration from simply picking up the game and leaving from lack of investment? How do you keep a player who only wants to dip into the game without investing into it?

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    If they are casual how do you separate frustration from simply picking up the game and leaving from lack of investment? How do you keep a player who only wants to dip into the game without investing into it?
    They at least tried the game, and enjoyed it for a while. These people I am talking about weren't one month and done types. Something went wrong to make them stop.

    I would like to see your evidence that hardcore players are somehow stickier in MMOs, not just in MMOs that specifically cater to them. Of course they would be retained better by the latter.

    I think the new management coming in to Blizzard is going to be asking questions about game design dogma that the previous management did not want to address, just because Blizzard has seen so much failure at game design lately.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Sooner or later everyone sits down to a banquet of consequences." -- Robert Louis Stevenson
    If you didn't get your COVID shot it's probably too late now, you fool.

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