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  1. #121
    No one I have ever met who plays this game at a high level expects people to "pay their dues" by wasting their time leveling. The insistence on forced time-wasting is exclusively a "my main is ilvl 200 and the extent to which I engage with World of Warcraft includes transmog farming and soloing ICC when I can be bothered because I want Invincible" thing.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    With a series of challenges that give hard pass/fails on your class.

    Something like a proving ground but tailored to each class specifically. Add to that a basic rotation guide and you could reduce leveling to roughly an hour and actually teach people the basics of the game at the same time.

    Keep the world active for people who want to enjoy the story/transmog but offer a real tutorial to the game instead.
    So how do you propose resetting secondary stats each xpac? Our purples turn into blues and we re-gear?
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Nzx View Post
    No one I have ever met who plays this game at a high level expects people to "pay their dues" by wasting their time leveling. The insistence on forced time-wasting is exclusively a "my main is ilvl 200 and the extent to which I engage with World of Warcraft includes transmog farming and soloing ICC when I can be bothered because I want Invincible" thing.
    Leveling is like, super important ok? I need to see my number go up. It's MY number. If it doesn't increase, how in the world will I know that I've done anything worthwhile?

    Now let me pay my $15 a month, $60 every two years to continue watching my number grow. It's important.
    Beware the indigenous, crippled libertarian!
    Thanks for the ad-hominem, it supports your inability to support your argument.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    So how do you propose resetting secondary stats each xpac? Our purples turn into blues and we re-gear?
    Can just keep squishing. I admit it isn't a problem I overly care about personally. I don't see anything that needs to be fixed.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    players fighting thanos.
    Damn does anyone have an original thought these days? Or do you just hear some e-celeb say something once and parrot it as meme gospel ad nauseam?

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Akibaboy View Post
    Damn does anyone have an original thought these days? Or do you just hear some e-celeb say something once and parrot it as meme gospel ad nauseam?
    I honestly don't know if your addressing me or the blizzard writing staff to be honest.

    It isn't that hard to compare thanos collecting the infinity sigils each containing a element of creation in order to rewrite reality. Even the part where loki says I will never serve and is beat in front of thrall,jaina,and bolvar.
    Last edited by Crimson Spears; 2021-08-07 at 04:54 AM.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    With a series of challenges that give hard pass/fails on your class.

    Something like a proving ground but tailored to each class specifically. Add to that a basic rotation guide and you could reduce leveling to roughly an hour and actually teach people the basics of the game at the same time.

    Keep the world active for people who want to enjoy the story/transmog but offer a real tutorial to the game instead.
    Stop thinking.

  8. #128
    They did away with leveling in Neverwinter, though item level still remains in that game and plays a huge role still.
    I'm all for milestone leveling without even item levels tho.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Nzx View Post
    No one I have ever met who plays this game at a high level expects people to "pay their dues" by wasting their time leveling
    Yes, that's why the high end community collectively lost their mind at the thought of Boosted Andys ruining their elite TBC raids.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    It isn't that hard to compare
    Exactly... which is why it's stupid to bring it up on every forum on every site because *insert neckbeard* said it on stream.

    People like to act like it's some sort of sin for *thing to be like other thing*... but the trope of collecting things to attain final form and undo reality is so deeply engrained into the RPG/video game genre that it's like commenting on the sky being blue or water being wet. These people that constantly comment on WoW's plot not rivaling that of the humanities are so weird, when Warcraft since its inception has been at best a comic book designed to give reason for your action figures to bash together.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Akibaboy View Post
    Yes, that's why the high end community collectively lost their mind at the thought of Boosted Andys ruining their elite TBC raids.


    Exactly... which is why it's stupid to bring it up on every forum on every site because *insert neckbeard* said it on stream.

    People like to act like it's some sort of sin for *thing to be like other thing*... but the trope of collecting things to attain final form and undo reality is so deeply engrained into the RPG/video game genre that it's like commenting on the sky being blue or water being wet. These people that constantly comment on WoW's plot not rivaling that of the humanities are so weird, when Warcraft since its inception has been at best a comic book designed to give reason for your action figures to bash together.
    It isn't so blatant or one for one. I didn't watch some streamer to come to the conclusion it was thanos I thought it the second sly went nearly one for one with loki's line.

    This isn't something that resembles it in passing. This is a highschool drama team doing shakespeare.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Akibaboy View Post
    Yes, that's why the high end community collectively lost their mind at the thought of Boosted Andys ruining their elite TBC raids.


    Seriously, your view is so skewed it's silly. Same with your other argument. People are perfectly capable of coming up with such obvious parallels themselves, because most of us aren't as culturally challenged that we wouldn't be able to see the parallels to one of the biggest movies in recent times. No streamers were needed to come to that conclusion.
    MMO-C should be glad that the British Empire is no more, because they'd want a piece of all the copium trade here.
    Angry players come to the forums to complain about the game... but what loser only comes to the forums to complain about the forums and its users?
    Felating Blizzard too eagerly may lead to oxygen deficiency and worst case asphyxiation. Long-term effects range from delusions up to cerebral necrosis.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by World Peace View Post
    Not listening has worked really well so far
    No complaints from me. But then again, i don't blindly parrot what 'popular streamers' shout over and over for clicks, i guess?

  13. #133
    Old God Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    levels are just arbitrary indicators that are more tied to zones than they are actual gameplay anymore. I agree, levels are outdated, serving no indicator of a player's skill, time investment, power level or achievements. They are a tacked-on design from the tabletop RPGs WoW was based off of, where a character's level determined the power of threats they were capable of taking on. Which isn't the case in WoW since a world-shattering rock elemental could be level 10, but a wild boar is level 80.

    Players should be able to jump from elwynn forest to ardenweald if they want, because 1.) that is already happening for previous expac zones and 2.) if that player likes ardenweald they should be able to jump right into what they like.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    Considering that retail isn't really an RPG anymore, and Blizzard literally sells level boosts to skip 90% of the leveling process, yeah, go ahead and remove leveling so that Blizz can push the whole "nothing matters except max level" angle even harder.



    It already is like that. Leveling is mind-blowingly fast and you can even buy a boost to skip 90% of it and go straight to endgame content.


    Take notes from vanilla, where leveling and questing is an actual adventure instead of a guided tour where the game holds your hand the entire time.

    Modern questing is just a completely on-rails experience that follows the same loop forever:

    1. Grab some quests
    2. Do the quest objectives that are 5 feet away from the questgiver
    3. Turn them in
    4. Get a breadcrumb quest that leads you to the next quest hub
    5. Repeat steps 1-4 until you're max level

    Whereas in vanilla, quests are spread out all over the world and you have to actually explore and find them, most of the time. And lots of quests have objectives that are far away from the questgiver, some quests having objectives that are on the other fuckin' side of the world.

    Yeah, there are quest hubs, but nowhere near as many as retail, and lots of quests are found outside of the quest hubs. I'd say it's more 50% are from quest hubs and 50% are just found in random places out in the world, whereas in retail, 100% of quests are from quest hubs.
    ok but didnt you use azeroth auto pilot in classic anyway?

  15. #135
    Old God Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akibaboy View Post
    Damn does anyone have an original thought these days? Or do you just hear some e-celeb say something once and parrot it as meme gospel ad nauseam?
    You think e-celebs and streamers are where original thoughts are born?

  16. #136
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    This is basically just another thinly veiled request to ignore literally every other aspect of the game in favor of some incredible niche content at the detriment of everybody else. It should be ignored and the exact opposite should be prescribed.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  17. #137
    Imho mob scaling defeated every single purpose of giving wow any RPG character. You no longer get any stronger, you stay the same strength all the way until the endgame where your power increases with gear level only. Leveling literally is a time sink only, so I really wouldn't care if they implemented alternative ways.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    This is basically just another thinly veiled request to ignore literally every other aspect of the game in favor of some incredible niche content at the detriment of everybody else. It should be ignored and the exact opposite should be prescribed.
    Why is it a bad idea to let people enjoy the aspects of the game they want? For that matter why is it a good idea to inflict more content on them they find boring?

    Is this some underwater 4d backgammon chess move?

  19. #139
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    Why is it a bad idea to let people enjoy the aspects of the game they want? For that matter why is it a good idea to inflict more content on them they find boring?

    Is this some underwater 4d backgammon chess move?
    Because the only way to effectively make it ignorable is to make it irrelevant. As far as I'm concerned the game is much healthier when people particularly the most skilled and elite players feel forced to participate in content they would normally opt out of.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Because the only way to effectively make it ignorable is to make it irrelevant. As far as I'm concerned the game is much healthier when people particularly the most skilled and elite players feel forced to participate in content they would normally opt out of.
    Alright but why?

    Lets ignore the most skilled and elite part since to be brutally frank leveling is arguably easier then fishing currenting is in game. How do you think forcing participation into entirely trivial content is a net positive for the "game" as a whole?

    Do you apply this metric to any other entertainment? Is television better then steaming since you have to sit through the ads for example?

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