I think leveling should be replaced.

[Black Goat]

With a series of challenges that give hard pass/fails on your class.

Something like a proving ground but tailored to each class specifically. Add to that a basic rotation guide and you could reduce leveling to roughly an hour and actually teach people the basics of the game at the same time.

Keep the world active for people who want to enjoy the story/transmog but offer a real tutorial to the game instead.

Stop thinking.

[LeeRoyMahBoy]

They did away with leveling in Neverwinter, though item level still remains in that game and plays a huge role still.
I'm all for milestone leveling without even item levels tho.

[Akibaboy]

No one I have ever met who plays this game at a high level expects people to "pay their dues" by wasting their time leveling

Yes, that's why the high end community collectively lost their mind at the thought of Boosted Andys ruining their elite TBC raids.

It isn't that hard to compare

Exactly... which is why it's stupid to bring it up on every forum on every site because *insert neckbeard* said it on stream.

People like to act like it's some sort of sin for *thing to be like other thing*... but the trope of collecting things to attain final form and undo reality is so deeply engrained into the RPG/video game genre that it's like commenting on the sky being blue or water being wet. These people that constantly comment on WoW's plot not rivaling that of the humanities are so weird, when Warcraft since its inception has been at best a comic book designed to give reason for your action figures to bash together.

[Crimson Spears]

Yes, that's why the high end community collectively lost their mind at the thought of Boosted Andys ruining their elite TBC raids.


Exactly... which is why it's stupid to bring it up on every forum on every site because *insert neckbeard* said it on stream.

People like to act like it's some sort of sin for *thing to be like other thing*... but the trope of collecting things to attain final form and undo reality is so deeply engrained into the RPG/video game genre that it's like commenting on the sky being blue or water being wet. These people that constantly comment on WoW's plot not rivaling that of the humanities are so weird, when Warcraft since its inception has been at best a comic book designed to give reason for your action figures to bash together.

It isn't so blatant or one for one. I didn't watch some streamer to come to the conclusion it was thanos I thought it the second sly went nearly one for one with loki's line.

This isn't something that resembles it in passing. This is a highschool drama team doing shakespeare.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Yes, that's why the high end community collectively lost their mind at the thought of Boosted Andys ruining their elite TBC raids.

Seriously, your view is so skewed it's silly. Same with your other argument. People are perfectly capable of coming up with such obvious parallels themselves, because most of us aren't as culturally challenged that we wouldn't be able to see the parallels to one of the biggest movies in recent times. No streamers were needed to come to that conclusion.

[hulkgor]

Not listening has worked really well so far

No complaints from me. But then again, i don't blindly parrot what 'popular streamers' shout over and over for clicks, i guess?

[Al Gorefiend]

levels are just arbitrary indicators that are more tied to zones than they are actual gameplay anymore. I agree, levels are outdated, serving no indicator of a player's skill, time investment, power level or achievements. They are a tacked-on design from the tabletop RPGs WoW was based off of, where a character's level determined the power of threats they were capable of taking on. Which isn't the case in WoW since a world-shattering rock elemental could be level 10, but a wild boar is level 80.

Players should be able to jump from elwynn forest to ardenweald if they want, because 1.) that is already happening for previous expac zones and 2.) if that player likes ardenweald they should be able to jump right into what they like.

[Kehego]

Considering that retail isn't really an RPG anymore, and Blizzard literally sells level boosts to skip 90% of the leveling process, yeah, go ahead and remove leveling so that Blizz can push the whole "nothing matters except max level" angle even harder.



It already is like that. Leveling is mind-blowingly fast and you can even buy a boost to skip 90% of it and go straight to endgame content.


Take notes from vanilla, where leveling and questing is an actual adventure instead of a guided tour where the game holds your hand the entire time.

Modern questing is just a completely on-rails experience that follows the same loop forever:

1. Grab some quests
2. Do the quest objectives that are 5 feet away from the questgiver
3. Turn them in
4. Get a breadcrumb quest that leads you to the next quest hub
5. Repeat steps 1-4 until you're max level

Whereas in vanilla, quests are spread out all over the world and you have to actually explore and find them, most of the time. And lots of quests have objectives that are far away from the questgiver, some quests having objectives that are on the other fuckin' side of the world.

Yeah, there are quest hubs, but nowhere near as many as retail, and lots of quests are found outside of the quest hubs. I'd say it's more 50% are from quest hubs and 50% are just found in random places out in the world, whereas in retail, 100% of quests are from quest hubs.

ok but didnt you use azeroth auto pilot in classic anyway?

[Al Gorefiend]

Damn does anyone have an original thought these days? Or do you just hear some e-celeb say something once and parrot it as meme gospel ad nauseam?

You think e-celebs and streamers are where original thoughts are born?

[Glorious Leader]

This is basically just another thinly veiled request to ignore literally every other aspect of the game in favor of some incredible niche content at the detriment of everybody else. It should be ignored and the exact opposite should be prescribed.

[Puri]

Imho mob scaling defeated every single purpose of giving wow any RPG character. You no longer get any stronger, you stay the same strength all the way until the endgame where your power increases with gear level only. Leveling literally is a time sink only, so I really wouldn't care if they implemented alternative ways.

[Crimson Spears]

This is basically just another thinly veiled request to ignore literally every other aspect of the game in favor of some incredible niche content at the detriment of everybody else. It should be ignored and the exact opposite should be prescribed.

Why is it a bad idea to let people enjoy the aspects of the game they want? For that matter why is it a good idea to inflict more content on them they find boring?

Is this some underwater 4d backgammon chess move?

[Glorious Leader]

Why is it a bad idea to let people enjoy the aspects of the game they want? For that matter why is it a good idea to inflict more content on them they find boring?

Is this some underwater 4d backgammon chess move?

Because the only way to effectively make it ignorable is to make it irrelevant. As far as I'm concerned the game is much healthier when people particularly the most skilled and elite players feel forced to participate in content they would normally opt out of.

[Crimson Spears]

Because the only way to effectively make it ignorable is to make it irrelevant. As far as I'm concerned the game is much healthier when people particularly the most skilled and elite players feel forced to participate in content they would normally opt out of.

Alright but why?

Lets ignore the most skilled and elite part since to be brutally frank leveling is arguably easier then fishing currenting is in game. How do you think forcing participation into entirely trivial content is a net positive for the "game" as a whole?

Do you apply this metric to any other entertainment? Is television better then steaming since you have to sit through the ads for example?

[Glorious Leader]

Alright but why?

Lets ignore the most skilled and elite part since to be brutally frank leveling is arguably easier then fishing currenting is in game. How do you think forcing participation into entirely trivial content is a net positive for the "game" as a whole?

Do you apply this metric to any other entertainment? Is television better then steaming since you have to sit through the ads for example?

Thats not a particularly relevant comparison because consuming a television product is largely not shared in the same way as consuming world of warcraft. In world of warcraft its a shared experience, we all exist in the game and the game has to be designed in a fashion to best suite everybody.

For you to be able to safely and effectively ignore any form of contemt it must be made effectively irrelevant or non existent. This is particularly true of elite players because the developers place an extremely high priority on providing a challenge for those elite players who will exploit every opportunity they can to overcome that challenge. In plain English if they are given the "choice" to opt out they will but the only way to feel they have a "choice" is to make whatever it is not count.

If you had the choice to skip leveling obviously you would do it. This would absolutely damage the experience for everybody else though because they'd have less people to play with obviously for one. For another its just the step before simple eliminating leveling as a whole.

I actually kinda hope they do this though. I think the developers secretly agree with most of the bs you spout but are kinda pussies. They could grow a pair and make wow a lobby game for mythic raiders but that might be risking their jobs. Although who knows, they butchered so much shit over the years and the only thing that gets them fired is being sex pests.

[Crimson Spears]

Thats not a particularly relevant comparison because consuming a television product is largely not shared in the same way as consuming world of warcraft. In world of warcraft its a shared experience, we all exist in the game and the game has to be designed in a fashion to best suite everybody.

For you to be able to safely and effectively ignore any form of contemt it must be made effectively irrelevant or non existent. This is particularly true of elite players because the developers place an extremely high priority on providing a challenge for those elite players who will exploit every opportunity they can to overcome that challenge. In plain English if they are given the "choice" to opt out they will but the only way to feel they have a "choice" is to make whatever it is not count.

If you had the choice to skip leveling obviously you would do it. This would absolutely damage the experience for everybody else though because they'd have less people to play with obviously for one. For another its just the step before simple eliminating leveling as a whole.

I actually kinda hope they do this though. I think the developers secretly agree with most of the bs you spout but are kinda pussies. They could grow a pair and make wow a lobby game for mythic raiders but that might be risking their jobs. Although who knows, they butchered so much shit over the years and the only thing that gets them fired is being sex pests.

I don't see world of warcraft leveling as a shared experience. It is rare to see people in the world and due to the nature of questing you don't engage with any of them. In dungeons you don't really ever interact unless the run has gone south. You kind of portray the fanfiction of what wow is but not what wow actually is.

[callipygoustp]

With a series of challenges that give hard pass/fails on your class.

Something like a proving ground but tailored to each class specifically. Add to that a basic rotation guide and you could reduce leveling to roughly an hour and actually teach people the basics of the game at the same time.

Keep the world active for people who want to enjoy the story/transmog but offer a real tutorial to the game instead.

Only if they compensate the loss of rpg experience with..... wait for it......

player housing!
(meaningful player housing)

[Ivarr]

TIL there's a vocal subset of people who find leveling so compelling they're unwilling to ponder an alternative.

The onus isn't on those who like something to provide alternatives. And so far we've heard very few of those.

So leveling, but with standardized tests? Sounds… stupid as shit.

Indeed. If I want to standardized tests I'll just start applying for tech firms. They'll hand out plenty of those.

[Glorious Leader]

I don't see world of warcraft leveling as a shared experience. It is rare to see people in the world and due to the nature of questing you don't engage with any of them. In dungeons you don't really ever interact unless the run has gone south. You kind of portray the fanfiction of what wow is but not what wow actually is.

I didn't say leveling specifically a shared experience but rather the entire game is a shared experience. What that means is that a change that you may like will of course impact others. The experience of watching television is mostly more isolated than that.

[Djaye]

With a series of challenges that give hard pass/fails on your class.

Something like a proving ground but tailored to each class specifically. Add to that a basic rotation guide and you could reduce leveling to roughly an hour and actually teach people the basics of the game at the same time.

Keep the world active for people who want to enjoy the story/transmog but offer a real tutorial to the game instead.

this is exactly how the game is during a boost. you want this, buy the boost.