Skill: Intelligence or Luck?

[LordVargK]

You've clearly never played Counter-Strike.

TIL CS is a 200 IQ game...
Look, of course someone who's incapable of learning (unintelligent) would never be skilled at anything. But intelligence is not the primary skill you need for CS.

[Ivarr]

The 60s called, it wants its mentality back. This is like a peak boomer comment.

Oh well when you put it like that.

Secondly, if they're smart enough they can make a living with gaming, so it's not always the opposite of a practical trajectory.

Category error rolled in survivorship bias. Most successful streamers are smart kids (or started as such), most smart kids aren't succesful streamers.

We would see hundreds of thousands of kids make a living with gaming if what you say is true. But what we actually see is that only a few attempts at this succeed, often by the graces of whimsical algorithms pushing their content.

[Sinured]

30y old dude here, beating the 12yo in most of their games (CoD,BF,LoL,RTS) so maybe op is just bad?
If a 30yo halfblind dude dont "suffer" maybe you were never good?
and trust me, the modern 12yo have less skill than the old ones.
oh how i miss the old days of shittalking, nowadays they are insta offended.

[Thelxi]

I'd break skill down into mechanical skill and intelligence. Mechanical skill further into reaction time, precision, awareness. Intelligence into knowledge, adaptability and planning. You could also add communication skills somewhere for games that scale with it.

[Ashleyxoxo]

30y old dude here, beating the 12yo in most of their games (CoD,BF,LoL,RTS) so maybe op is just bad?
If a 30yo halfblind dude dont "suffer" maybe you were never good?
and trust me, the modern 12yo have less skill than the old ones.
oh how i miss the old days of shittalking, nowadays they are insta offended.

Lol and how many 30 year olds are in the higher ranks? You know, not the scrub pug ranks you're talking about?

[StrawberryZebra]

"Skill" is something entirely separate from both Intelligence and Luck. There are some things that skill requires neither and some where it needs both. Playing a Piano requires neither, playing Professional poker requires both.

If you're asking which has more impact on being skilled at any one game, the answer depends on a host of factors like genre and mechanics which aren't easy to give a sweeping generalisation for. Some games have RNG as a strong central mechanic, card games for instance, where others don't, like Chess.

Some games put strong emphasis on mechanical skills and execution, where others put it on thinking through your options.

Building skill requires intentional practice - Which isn't something that needs intelligence to do, you've just got to be willing to invest the time into it.

Secondly, if they're smart enough they can make a living with gaming, so it's not always the opposite of a practical trajectory.

This is a very broad statement. Being a pro gamer and winning 40 Million DOTA prize pots is a very different set of requirements to being a developer, or a streamer, or working at gamestop.

Some of those need more skill than others. eSports especially is an area where lots of smart and talented people are throwing themselves at, but only a small number can be successful at any one time - Just like professional sports its only the best of the best that are going to be successful.

Developers don't need to be skilled at games, but it's a role where practical application of intelligence and problem solving is key. They need knowledge of games, but not skill.

Streamers don't need to be smart or skilled, charisma matters so much more. They're playing to entertain an audience and sometimes they want to see you getting salty about getting bodied.

Gamestop employees, as a generalisation, don't need to be smart, skilled at games or particularly lucky.

Lol and how many 30 year olds are in the higher ranks? You know, not the scrub pug ranks you're talking about?

I'm not sure where you're getting this idea from. Street Fighter player Daigo Umehara is in his 40's and has still been consistently performing at the highest levels. Tokido and Infiltration are both well into their 30's.

Really depends...Fighting games is usually 30% character and 70% skill...but some random things pop up every so often...

Guilty gear has Faust's What's This? Move...where he just throws a random item. Sometimes it's a heal, sometimes it's a trumpet, sometimes it throws meteors. Have I won games cause I got a lucky meteor? Yes but the random is in a way that the opponent has react to the item no matter what. So my opponent died to the meteor yes but that was because they didn't respect my random bullshit move but on the other hand it could of been the heal that they could of picked up so yes luck plays a factor.

Even with the RNG component, luck is still a very minor factor for Faust. You get to see which item has been tossed on the way up and have the fall time to react to it. Only the meteor is a game changer and that's by far the smallest chance to appear.

The outcomes are determined entirely by how both players react. You know both players are going to want to get the trumpet or the donut and it's how you go about contesting it that decides how the game plays out. Are you going to bounce the bomb or dodge it? Challenge Faust in the air for the 100t weight? Those factors play a much bigger part in winning and losing.

BlazBlue's Platinum was a far more egregious example in some of the earlier BlazBlue versions. But it's never been a series known for its particularly good balance.

[Hellobolis]

The "holy algorithm" is completely irrelevant if you're too stupid to capitalize on it. At best it will net you a viral video once and then you get back to your sub 5k views. Just look at how many youtube channels have 1m+ subs but barely break 5-10k views per video.

And on the other side is people that know how to manipulate the "holy algorithm", as you call it, to their advantage. Mr Beast literally spent years watching and analizing popular youtubers and following trends, keeping watch on what and why became viral and popular and used that to his advantage to climb to the top. If you think people like the Doc got to there place they're at based on nothing but "luck" you're genuinely delusional.

yeah it's a lot of luck. i'm sure that for every doc and mrbeast out there there are at least a dozen equally talented and hardworking people who only have regular people income levels of success.

it's not much different than for actors. you can have all the talent you want and make a decent living, there are still thousands of applicants for that 1 MCU movie slot that's your ticket to making it big.

i have NEVER met a successful streamer who started streaming with the expectation that it would become their job, let alone their ticket to big money. and maybe 1 out of 100 of the ones who can live off streaming get rich of it.

[justandulas]

There isn’t a gamer younger than me on planet earth who could out game me. I’ve spent a lifetime honing my skill set.

Maybe they’d win in one game that I’m unfamiliar with but a variety of games? I’d win 90% easily.

You get better as you age. Not worse, especially if you work out daily to stay sharp

[bluesock]

yeah it's a lot of luck. i'm sure that for every doc and mrbeast out there there are at least a dozen equally talented and hardworking people who only have regular people income levels of success.

it's not much different than for actors. you can have all the talent you want and make a decent living, there are still thousands of applicants for that 1 MCU movie slot that's your ticket to making it big.

i have NEVER met a successful streamer who started streaming with the expectation that it would become their job, let alone their ticket to big money. and maybe 1 out of 100 of the ones who can live off streaming get rich of it.

Read what you quoted again, but this time slowly.

[Acidbaron]

"Skill" is something entirely separate from both Intelligence and Luck. There are some things that skill requires neither and some where it needs both. Playing a Piano requires neither, playing Professional poker requires both.

If you're asking which has more impact on being skilled at any one game, the answer depends on a host of factors like genre and mechanics which aren't easy to give a sweeping generalisation for. Some games have RNG as a strong central mechanic, card games for instance, where others don't, like Chess.

Some games put strong emphasis on mechanical skills and execution, where others put it on thinking through your options.

Building skill requires intentional practice - Which isn't something that needs intelligence to do, you've just got to be willing to invest the time into it.

That is pretty much it, want to learn a skill it is all about practice even if you have a bit more talent for it you still need to practice.

Genre's also evolve over time, FPS games used to be arena shooters. I would like to see anyone going into a quake live map that they never played before even if you are younger and pretty good at FPS games on PC that is consoles do not count, you will get your ass handed to you by a 50 year old who never stopped playing quake, because map knowledge in those games is also key.

[PACOX]

Luck is fun but devs are usually afraid to make it very impactful. Luck builds can be hit or miss, but I guess it's in the job description. When implented correctly they can be fun though ie Fallout and DOS2.

Intelligence is usually a better bet and will benefit more in the long run, assuming you're running some sort of magic build. You really can't go wrong.

Though you could really mix up the two unless you're playing one of those games where you have to stick to one stat.

[Greyvax]

Intelligence mostly. Also time played factors greatly into skill.

I used to be excellent at COD (back in the W@W and MW2 days) because i played a lot, and learned/memorized the maps. I could anticipate when enemies would appear because of prior experience with enemy movement on particular maps. I would dominate games because i knew exactly where to find the enemy, how to position to get the advantage, and how to maximize kills and minimize exposure to death.

After a while, i stopped playing as much, so when new games came out, i would get murdered because i didn't know the maps.

[Orange Joe]

Therefore are less intelligent. Duh.

Thats not really how it works. If a genius learns 90% of their knowledge in the first 20-30 years of their life, they are still intelligent when they are older and learn at a slower pace.

[StillMcfuu]

Any shooter is 70% mechanical skills (which comes from both practice and good gaming setup), 20% experience and then maybe 10% is intelligence. Even if you're dumb you can hit high ratings given good enough mechanics and enough experience, but good luck being intelligent and hitting high ratings without good mechanics. It only changes at top ratings, where everyone has pretty much hit the mechanical skill and experience ceilings and intelligence (and also luck) is what lets them end on top of others.

Counter-strike isn't like most shooters. Mechanical skill is important, but playing angles, map awareness, knowing spots, playing corners, and all levels of experience play the biggest roles. Raw aim is a bit less important than knowing what to do with the aim. It's not like Overwatch where mechanical skill is 90% of the game, IE if you can't track a target through the sky and react to changes of direction instantly you are on the back foot. In CS if you have to snap 180 you are already dead unless the other player is just bad; really if a player isn't where you expect them or you just played the situation wrong, you are dead.

OT: I don't know exactly what you mean by luck, as in genetically lucky?
Skill is the manifestation of effort, time, and experience. Some more physical related skill are going to require a bit of good genetics. Things like reaction time aren't necessarily skill, but putting those reactions to use is apart of skill. Granted you can train reaction time to a certain extent, but I'd put that in the same realm as gym training, it's not actually apart of the overall "skill".

[Demeia]

The question is kind of... Stupid.

If something is skill-based, then there isn't any luck involved. Ergo, intelligence is the answer. Everything "skill based" is a mixture of intelligence/knowledge and coordination/ability.

If any outcome is predicated upon luck, then it is inherently not skill that achieves said outcome.

As someone who watches/plays a good deal of chess, I'd have to disagree. You can do a lot of preparation, but having your opponent fall for it requires a lot of luck. You only control 50% of the board.

[Nihilist74]

For just about anything in the world, If you outwork everyone else you will get ahead but you have to work smart.

[Short]

Skill, intelligence and luck are 3 separate factors in the whole ordeal.
intelligence and luck don't fall under skill, and neither does skill fall under intelligence or luck.

but, to get to the real question of how does age effect performance in videogames?
even outside of games it is shown that younger children have a tendency to learn things at a much faster rate than older people.
this mostly comes down to the developmental stage of the brain. where older people tend to have fallen into a fixed way of thinking and perceiving things, younger children often haven't. which allows them to figure things out faster for the sake of developing that fixed way of thinking.

this isn't to say older people can't compete or develop the skills needed to compete. hell, if driven far enough in terms of genuine interest, anyone can learn new skills regardless of age. and sometimes age and experience in other fields/skills comes with advantages in terms of new skill development.

in terms of reaction speed, age does come with limiting factors. a new car, unless laden with factory defect, will come with little wear and tear. a 20 year old beater might need some new bushings and bearings. in the same way a 10 year old, unless born with a rare disease, often wont suffer from arthritis. which is something that'll develop over time and can be a mayor factor in terms of reaction speed during longer sessions of gaming.

repetition also plays a big part in developing skill.
you're counterstrike argument being a good example. there's both skill and foresight needed to be competitive in counterstrike. the foresight being derived from intelligence in this case. after playing a map X amount of times you'll get a feel for where/how the enemy's might approach you and how to best react to that. all you need then is the skill to react appropriately to the situation.
deciding to bounce a grenade of a wall, so it lands it in a well known camping spot, is intelligence. bouncing that grenade of a wall perfectly is skill. killing the 3 campers, that happened to be hiding/walking past there, with that grenade is luck.

this is of course excluding the standard no time/other obligations argument.


also, you come across as quite disingenuous and biased with your response to a lot of the replies.
as an example:

Therefore are less intelligent. Duh.

learning slower ≠ less intelligent.

if i don't give 2 shits about a specific subject i won't learn as fast as someone who does.
if i'm more interested about a subject than others, i'll learn faster.
if i'm just as interested about a subject as someone who is much younger then me, it'll mainly come down to time spent researching the subject. if that subject is some high end physical phenomena that requires an understanding of a plethora of other subjects i am well versed in, but the younger person isn't, i'll probably learn faster than them, simply because my age allowed me to.

[Utrrabbit]

Admit it: you just can't keep up with the young kids. Is it because they're smarter, more progressive than you? Or is it because they have more free time and win at the game of chance?

P.S. Don't cop out with "it's a little bit of both." That is obvious, but which matters more?

What are you talking about I am 38 and easily keep up with anyone. If you are older and cant, I do not know what to say. Perhaps you should have taken better care of yourself.

- - - Updated - - -

Therefore are less intelligent. Duh.

That is not how intelligence works lol. I get the feeling you do not even understand your own thread.

[Egomaniac]

Admit it: you just can't keep up with the young kids. Is it because they're smarter, more progressive than you? Or is it because they have more free time and win at the game of chance?

P.S. Don't cop out with "it's a little bit of both." That is obvious, but which matters more?

Neither.

Intelligence and Luck may factor into it but simply being younger doesn't give you an advantage in those things.

[Itori]

Honestly the older ive gotten the less i stopped caring about being competitive and only care about getting by or just having a good time. Overwatch though made me mad enough in comp that i forced myself to “git gud” because i was stuck in gold and when i started adopting new ways of playing i noticed myself carrying games. Your skill can be increased but it takes effort is all im saying.