This current streamers trend to exit wow is obviously partly hypocritical.

[RoKPaNda]

Of course. Pretty much any one of those streamers will be back when New World dies in 1.5 Wildstars, or when FFXIV has a lull in its content cycle, or whatever.

WoW would be in a much worse state than it's in right now if Blizzard started listening to streamers.

[Qnubi]

Part of me enjoys this because wow does deserve criticism (especially because of the overengineering of subsystems and grinding). But I'm mainly talking here about the hypocrisy of how extreme some of those people are, because these problems were CLEARLY around for years (at least Legion) and they all act as if they started in mid-BfA or early-SL (because I guess they know they'd sound stupid if after YEARS they now started noticing them).

Can't speak for anybody else, but to me it took 1-2 expansions to realize how annoying borrowed power is to me. I absolutely hate it now. I am not gonna bother purchasing another expansion that has borrowed power, I am sick of it after experiencing it 3 times. Legion was fun because all the systems were new. But now, after they got recycled 2 times I am sick of them.

[Wuusah]

or when FFXIV has a lull in its content cycle, or whatever.

FF14 IS IN A LULL. FF14 is right now in the end of expansion waiting for next expansion state. All the fun these streamers have with FF14 right now is content from old expansions that the game doesn't just throw away after a patch but keeps relevant forever. Asmongold is right now playing content from 2015 or so. He has 6 more years of content to go through and all of it is relevant and challenging group content.

[epigramx]

I'm happy this is happening , it's time they start making World of Warcraft 2 and reinvent & modernize the whole franchise. Wow has been boring since Cata.

They will never make a new mmo when people keep playing Wow. I have seen many so called wow beaters but none of them really managed to pull it off. I think Ashes of Creation will finally be the next step for MMO's though. It's positive that wow no longer wears the crown cause now they have to come up with something fresh. I hope people keep leaving this game to the point that they are forced to make wow 2 with a new engine , story and a complete refresh (again see ashes of creation). Blizzard got ruined by activision , all the major players left the company so i'm not sure if they can pull it off but its long overdue. Now its time to step up and show the world who's the king off MMO's only not with the current wow.

Most of what you're imagining is wishful thinking and utopic visions for either wow or any game. E.g. even if they stop the overengineering of subsystems: the probability of wow ever having no grinding is about 0, or most other games out there are pay-to-win-fests or not that much different or even when they are different they are different genres (e.g. a pvp streamer finally realized it sucks to grind for PvP but guess what: ALL good multiplayer games never have grinding and they are never MMOs).

[Qnubi]

I'm happy this is happening , it's time they start making World of Warcraft 2 and reinvent & modernize the whole franchise. Wow has been boring since Cata.

They will never make a new mmo when people keep playing Wow. I have seen many so called wow beaters but none of them really managed to pull it off. I think Ashes of Creation will finally be the next step for MMO's though. It's positive that wow no longer wears the crown cause now they have to come up with something fresh. I hope people keep leaving this game to the point that they are forced to make wow 2 with a new engine , story and a complete refresh (again see ashes of creation). Blizzard got ruined by activision , all the major players left the company so i'm not sure if they can pull it off but its long overdue. Now its time to step up and show the world who's the king off MMO's only not with the current wow.

I mean, they have lost close to 10 million players since Wotlk, what makes you believe losing another couple 100k will NOW suddenly change their mind. People forget that WoW has already bled MASSIVE amounts of players and it does not seem to bother Blizzard, they just keep rolling with the same old "proven" systems and keep losing players. I don't think anything will make them change their way.

[Shedaar]

It's pretty obvious most of it riding a bandwagon for views. None of those people actually found a game that happened this year to be perfect or suddenly realized wow is "bad" so what's happening here is that they think that hate for wow sells and they jump on a bandwagon of the streamer culture in the hope they'll get their subs count higher.

I think you need to do a little more research to understand how streaming and the income there works
Then you would realize how your statement carries absolutely no meritorical value whatsoever

[Wuusah]

Can't speak for anybody else, but to me it took 1-2 expansions to realize how annoying borrowed power is to me. I absolutely hate it now. I am not gonna bother purchasing another expansion that has borrowed power, I am sick of it after experiencing it 3 times. Legion was fun because all the systems were new. But now, after they got recycled 2 times I am sick of them.

Imo Legion borrowed power was fun because it was class powers that we borrowed. The artifact weapon empowered class abilities. Legendaries empowered class abilities. Tier sets empowered class abilities. It was exciting because our classes had significant changes to their toolkit all the time.

Borrowed power started to get shit when Blizzard realized that it's way too much effort to give something unique for each class and instead started making generic powers with the crucible, then azerite traits, then essences, corruptions, soulbinds, SoD gems. It's just generic boring bullshit. Legion was class fantasy to the extreme. That was fun. BfA and Shadowlands is random magic bullshit attached to your class.

Borrowed power is bad because they are doing borrowed power the wrong way. They are doing it the lazy way of giving the same powers to everyone.

[epigramx]

FF14 IS IN A LULL. FF14 is right now in the end of expansion waiting for next expansion state. All the fun these streamers have with FF14 right now is content from old expansions that the game doesn't just throw away after a patch but keeps relevant forever. Asmongold is right now playing content from 2015 or so. He has 6 more years of content to go through and all of it is relevant and challenging group content.

As if that's good or as if that's not in wow (we just killed Illidan in Black Temple for timewalking and almost died). I don't care much about those features because after a point it becomes about who has the faster hands and not who has the better strategy because the strategies become too well known (developing strategies is way more interesting and beneficial to human experience).

It's not that they play a game that is amazing; it's that they play a game that they find new because they never saw it; in reality ff14 is a copy-cat of wow with japanese art because those people pretend Legion didn't have problems which is the exact philosophy of the subsystems of today (and sometimes worse (e.g. the random legendaries in the world)).

[Qnubi]

Imo Legion borrowed power was fun because it was class powers that we borrowed. The artifact weapon empowered class abilities. Legendaries empowered class abilities. Tier sets empowered class abilities. It was exciting because our classes had significant changes to their toolkit all the time.

Borrowed power started to get shit when Blizzard realized that it's way too much effort to give something unique for each class and instead started making generic powers with the crucible, then azerite traits, then essences, corruptions, soulbinds, SoD gems. It's just generic boring bullshit. Legion was class fantasy to the extreme. That was fun. BfA and Shadowlands is random magic bullshit attached to your class.

Borrowed power is bad because they are doing borrowed power the wrong way. They are doing it the lazy way of giving the same powers to everyone.

Good point, I didn't look at it that way. I feel like you nailed it here.

[Leviathan1488]

Most of what you're imagining is wishful thinking and utopic visions for either wow or any game. E.g. even if they stop the overengineering of subsystems: the probability of wow ever having no grinding is about 0, or most other games out there are pay-to-win-fests or not that much different or even when they are different they are different genres (e.g. a pvp streamer finally realized it sucks to grind for PvP but guess what: ALL good multiplayer games never have grinding and they are never MMOs).

Nothing you said there was in my post XD I just said its time for wow 2 with a new engine , story and improve and modernize the game. Ashes of Creation is made by someone who's been playing MMO's since the 90s and has allot of money so he decided to hire people and make a MMO. I'm not saying they will deliver but they intend to take everything thats good about verious mmo's and improve all the bad. So far they are the first MMO in a long time that show allot of promise to become MMO 2.0 and its looks like they are going to deliver aswell cause they ain't stopping till everything is perfect.

[epigramx]

I think you need to do a little more research to understand how streaming and the income there works
Then you would realize how your statement carries absolutely no meritorical value whatsoever

I think you should not be replying if you have nothing to say; "you know nothing and you are wrong" is not an answer: it's an empty dismissal.
Tell us how exactly having more views is not making money; those people literally are gifted subs for shitting on wow.
EVEN IF THEY ARE WRONG(in the long run): there are plenty of reasons for them to have the delusion they are right.

[Leviathan1488]

I mean, they have lost close to 10 million players since Wotlk, what makes you believe losing another couple 100k will NOW suddenly change their mind. People forget that WoW has already bled MASSIVE amounts of players and it does not seem to bother Blizzard, they just keep rolling with the same old "proven" systems and keep losing players. I don't think anything will make them change their way.

10 million players? that was back in 2010 its 2021 now XD Final Fantasy 14 has a bigger player base now. Sure people like me play a new expansion for 1 or 2 months but than leave. The old wow had 10 million players all year round. Those days are long gone and this is the first time other MMO's actually have more players. That said more and more people are quitting wow and more and more are done with the game so saying things are going well is based on nothing XD

People have been saying wow is dying for years but it never has been as real as it is right now and it will only get worse from here.

[Wuusah]

As if that's good or as if that's not in wow (we just killed Illidan in Black Temple for timewalking and almost died). I don't care much about those features because after a point it becomes about who has the faster hands and not who has the better strategy because the strategies become too well known (developing strategies is way more interesting and beneficial to human experience).

It's not that they play a game that is amazing; it's that they play a game that they find new because they never saw it; in reality ff14 is a copy-cat of wow with japanese art because those people pretend Legion didn't have problems which is the exact philosophy of the subsystems of today (and sometimes worse (e.g. the random legendaries in the world)).

FF14 is a copycat of old WoW. They aren't trying to copy Legion/BfA/Shadowlands WoW. They were playing Cata and MoP when they developed ARR. And it shows a lot in how they treat endgame. How the justice and valor point system is still being used, for example.

[epigramx]

Imo Legion borrowed power was fun because it was class powers that we borrowed. The artifact weapon empowered class abilities. Legendaries empowered class abilities. Tier sets empowered class abilities. It was exciting because our classes had significant changes to their toolkit all the time.

Borrowed power started to get shit when Blizzard realized that it's way too much effort to give something unique for each class and instead started making generic powers with the crucible, then azerite traits, then essences, corruptions, soulbinds, SoD gems. It's just generic boring bullshit. Legion was class fantasy to the extreme. That was fun. BfA and Shadowlands is random magic bullshit attached to your class.

Borrowed power is bad because they are doing borrowed power the wrong way. They are doing it the lazy way of giving the same powers to everyone.

Good point, I didn't look at it that way. I feel like you nailed it here.

That criticism is absolutely flawed and it is sad that both Preach and Asmongold are popularizing it because they are supposedly smarter than the average gamers.
It's ABSOLUTELY clear that the "tier sets that change the rotation" of this expansion are the LEGENDARIES.
E.g. play Kyrian Arcane right now and tell me the rotation isn't COMPLETELY new.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

They just troll to get clicks on their videos then go to play other games for a while and after they just come back. Worse click bait trend now is “The First Ones have been revealed!”. I have been baited on several occasions to watch their discoveries just to find their theories being so irrational and illogical that it could even anger me. Not to mention twenty minutes videos have more ads. Yet they know nothing! Even if they do they just give away false information on purpose. Yet they dare to say they live in such an abusive relationship with Blizzard. What an irony.

[Wuusah]

That criticism is absolutely flawed and it is sad that both Preach and Asmongold are popularizing it because they are supposedly smarter than the average gamers.
It's ABSOLUTELY clear that the "tier sets that change the rotation" of this expansion are the LEGENDARIES.
E.g. play Kyrian Arcane right now and tell me the rotation isn't COMPLETELY new.

The tier sets are legendaries? In Legion the tier sets were tier sets additionally to legendaries. I'm not talking about having the class change completely all the time. I'm talking about class fantasy. I'm talking about your class toolkit changing in slight ways. I'm talking about what makes your class is the abilities of your class. I'm talking about when you use a skill, it's that skill that does damage and not the three extra procs that happen on the side.

It's fun to have this one ability that you used a thousand times before but because of this new power you got it now does something slightly differently. Covenant abilities are exceptional in that. They are amazing at that. Soulbinds are generic bullshit. And the way how we are forced into a covenant and can't switch for another spec is also bullshit. But the covenant abilities themselves are great.

[epigramx]

10 million players? that was back in 2010 its 2021 now XD Final Fantasy 14 has a bigger player base now. Sure people like me play a new expansion for 1 or 2 months but than leave. The old wow had 10 million players all year round. Those days are long gone and this is the first time other MMO's actually have more players. That said more and more people are quitting wow and more and more are done with the game so saying things are going well is based on nothing XD

People have been saying wow is dying for years but it never has been as real as it is right now and it will only get worse from here.

Your point of view is myopic because it has the delusion the world has the same number of players since 10 years ago.
10 years ago the grandmas and their grandchildren weren't a main target audience of Youtube and the internet.
You have to understand that even if WoW is shit for some old players: the internet users are WAY more now.

[Qnubi]

10 million players? that was back in 2010 its 2021 now XD Final Fantasy 14 has a bigger player base now. Sure people like me play a new expansion for 1 or 2 months but than leave. The old wow had 10 million players all year round. Those days are long gone and this is the first time other MMO's actually have more players. That said more and more people are quitting wow and more and more are done with the game so saying things are going well is based on nothing XD

People have been saying wow is dying for years but it never has been as real as it is right now and it will only get worse from here.

Did you, perchance misread my post? I didn't claim WoW has 10m players right now, I said they lost close to 10m players since Wotlk. Which was my argument that losing a couple extra 100k players now will not make them change their way if millions of players leaving didn't fundamentally change anything (aka making WoW 2). It seems like they genuinely don't care for the franchise as a whole. All the changes they make lead to players leaving, that would tell me that I need to re-do the entire game, not just adjust. It seems they think otherwise. But looking at the evidence, WoW is never gaining players anymore (long-term) so a complete reset is the only solution for growth again.

Look at other franchises that faced the same issue. Resident Evil was doing really bad after RE6, Capcom overhauled the entire game, new perspective (1st person now) and it's doing way better than before. You absolutely have to change your game if it's decades old. WoW is just trying to band-aid all issues but it simply needs a complete overhaul.

[epigramx]

The tier sets are legendaries? In Legion the tier sets were tier sets additionally to legendaries. I'm not talking about having the class change completely all the time. I'm talking about class fantasy. I'm talking about your class toolkit changing in slight ways. I'm talking about what makes your class is the abilities of your class. I'm talking about when you use a skill, it's that skill that does damage and not the three extra procs that happen on the side.

It's fun to have this one ability that you used a thousand times before but because of this new power you got it now does something slightly differently. Covenant abilities are exceptional in that. They are amazing at that. Soulbinds are generic bullshit. And the way how we are forced into a covenant and can't switch for another spec is also bullshit. But the covenant abilities themselves are great.

None of those people that quit (e.g. Preach) gave a shit about the lore when it gets to tier sets. It was all about changing the rotation.
So when they completely omit to say the legendaries COMPLETELY change the rotation: I know they aren't that smart or pretending.

[Revamp Man]

As if that's good or as if that's not in wow (we just killed Illidan in Black Temple for timewalking and almost died). I don't care much about those features because after a point it becomes about who has the faster hands and not who has the better strategy because the strategies become too well known (developing strategies is way more interesting and beneficial to human experience).

It's not that they play a game that is amazing; it's that they play a game that they find new because they never saw it; in reality ff14 is a copy-cat of wow with japanese art because those people pretend Legion didn't have problems which is the exact philosophy of the subsystems of today (and sometimes worse (e.g. the random legendaries in the world)).

7.3.5 had solutions to the problems that SL has now and the problems it had at the time were minor

Legendary rng was fixed
Artifact catch up was less painful
Alt play was again fixed due to the previous two fixes

Problems that still existed
Relic garbage
Catch up gear could roll an arcano crystal
TF meant that you would still farm useless crap
Argus trinkets

SL shits on the solutions and carried over the problems
“Domination gear is just like tier” nah and repeating it doesn’t make it true
Covenant balance is still garbage and while the catch up and anima buffs are nice I’d really enjoy if we had more things we could do with anima because I don’t feel like restarting a renown grind for a set of cosmetics I can’t use outside of that covenant is appealing

Blizzard
Place a BiS legendary on the first boss of a dungeon and wonder why people leave the dungeon early while touting the years of dev experience As a shield against criticism
Mention 44 new mounts for a patch when you can only really get 32 I think
Rng transmog gear as quest rewards
A system to reward players in torghast by giving points to make runs easier but the points are used to make the new additions less difficult thus essentially making a system for negating a system