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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    ff14 is an ancient game anyway (in terms of the main nature of it). I played it about 3 or 4 years ago and I knew it was nothing too special as a replacement (since it did nothing really new), and I find it fascinating that the creator himself said it's meant to be a "japanese wow".

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    I don't know if Asmongold is braver than others, but a lot of others don't have to be afraid these days. He had multiple times more views with his "exodus to ff14" streams so it's obvious that a lot of others that jumped into the bandwagon didn't have to be afraid to hate on wow (or at least they might have reasons to think that even if it's short term).
    You do realize Asmongold is the outlier. Even if he lost half his viewers, he would still be the largest ff streamer. Also Asmongold is a personality streamer, people watch him for the events he makes. That is very different from a e.g. m+ streamer.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    class fantasy is not lore...
    it is. When you say its a swashbukler and not the doom slayer - thats lore. You create a story that you center your design arround. People who dont care about the story dont care about the hunter wielding a doom gun.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Potato-potahto. Class fantasy and lore is the same category for people that don't give a shit about the story in general, and when Preach and Asmongold (the thread is about streamers) shit on wow because the tier sets were supposedly amazing on a technical standpoint: it has nothing to do with story or class fantasy or lore.
    Quote Originally Posted by mbit View Post
    it is. When you say its a swashbukler and not the doom slayer - thats lore. You create a story that you center your design arround. People who dont care about the story dont care about the hunter wielding a doom gun.

    class fantasy is how a class feels like playing. Lore is part of it but not the biggest part of it. Lore simply setting the boundaries for general rules. Lore dictates that a mage uses arcane, frost or fire magic. Lore does not dictate how a frost mage has to be played. Lore says a warrior should be the heavy armor and heavy weapon brawler type of class. Lore does not dictate how a fury warrior should be played. That is class fantasy.

    And yes, Preach and Asmon very much care about class fantasy. A few days ago Asmon was actually talking about it. In mid Legion, I think around Tomb of Sargeras he had a blast playing Fury Warrior. It was the best playstyle that spec ever had in his opinion and while playing it he was getting sad because he knew it won't last forever. Preach was talking about class fantasy in the video where he announced him quitting WoW. How those gems are boring and generic. How new gear from raids doesn't feel exciting nowadays because you just don't get your new class tier set. Not only because of the lack of set powers but also because of the lack of cool artistic reimaginations of what your class should look like.

    Class fantasy is where it all comes together. The rotation, animations, sound effects, style, lore.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by mbit View Post
    There are some who rate sets on realism in accordance with setting / fitting a class but the vast majority seem to follow rule of cool - if it looks great they like it.
    You can see this by what people mog into - they dont choose the realistic one but the cool sets.
    Definitely not most raiders going for mythic. It's about ranking high. And objectively the main purpose of sets is to make player power higher.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    You do realize Asmongold is the outlier. Even if he lost half his viewers, he would still be the largest ff streamer. Also Asmongold is a personality streamer, people watch him for the events he makes. That is very different from a e.g. m+ streamer.
    I don't know if it's too safe for him (in terms of growth; he will not disappear). He is not really a purely negative streamer; his fame was mainly being goofy around various popular subjects (you can call them "normie" subjects in the game); he can be negative but it was never his exclusivity.
    There are WAY more negative streamers out there that would be way safer doing what he does; of course their views might be lower but their growth might be better with negativity than for him.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    class fantasy is how a class feels like playing.
    Class fantasy is where it all comes together. The rotation, animations, sound effects, style, lore.

    You can have the same gameplay with a different coating. I.E. same spell in terms of cd/casttime/damage but whether you make it a frost or fire bolt is just a matter of class fantasy.
    The issue many mentioned is that in an attempt to make the different types more distinct they castrated what each one could for their class fantasy concept. And this is precisely where people shit on the entire concept because they care more about gameplay than the lore.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    class fantasy is how a class feels like playing. Lore is part of it but not the biggest part of it. Lore simply setting the boundaries for general rules. Lore dictates that a mage uses arcane, frost or fire magic. Lore does not dictate how a frost mage has to be played. Lore says a warrior should be the heavy armor and heavy weapon brawler type of class. Lore does not dictate how a fury warrior should be played. That is class fantasy.

    And yes, Preach and Asmon very much care about class fantasy. A few days ago Asmon was actually talking about it. In mid Legion, I think around Tomb of Sargeras he had a blast playing Fury Warrior. It was the best playstyle that spec ever had in his opinion and while playing it he was getting sad because he knew it won't last forever. Preach was talking about class fantasy in the video where he announced him quitting WoW. How those gems are boring and generic. How new gear from raids doesn't feel exciting nowadays because you just don't get your new class tier set. Not only because of the lack of set powers but also because of the lack of cool artistic reimaginations of what your class should look like.

    Class fantasy is where it all comes together. The rotation, animations, sound effects, style, lore.
    You are not going to tell me how a class feels like PLAYING since that's personal. I find your view completely flawed anyway. E.g. if Frost had a frostbolt that behaved like arcane blast(etc.) you'd have a hard time convincing me frost wouldn't "play" like current arcane.
    Last edited by epigramx; 2021-08-09 at 10:34 AM.

  7. #67
    Posters on MMO Champion: Streamers value their income and good name, and will never leave a game, even they hate, because it could effectively end their career.

    Also posters on MMO champion: Look, another streamer left WoW for another game. Clearly WoW is dying, I'm so happy for that, good for them from moving onto another, better game!

    Never change guys, never change. For the record here? The TC is right. None of these streamers would leave WoW if they knew it would effectively end the one and only career they've ever had, and their sole form of income. Clearly, the guys know they can make money elsewhere streaming other video games, and it's very likely their economic advisors are suggesting they do so to take advantage of the current drama surrounding the company, which they know will keep viewers following them out of their own moral grand standing by "Taking a stand against Blizzard".

    This isn't rocket science here, and these streamers aren't idiots. They're not going to throw away their only sole form of income just because a few of the higher ups in Blizzard were complete human filth.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    You are not going to tell me how a class feels like PLAYING since that's personal. I find your view completely flawed anyway. E.g. if Frost had a frostbolt that behaved like arcane blast(etc.) you'll have a hard time convincing me frost wouldn't "play" like current arcane.
    you are missing the point completely and at this point I'm done discussing with you. It's like talking to a dense wall.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    It's pretty obvious most of it riding a bandwagon for views. None of those people actually found a game that happened this year to be perfect or suddenly realized wow is "bad" so what's happening here is that they think that hate for wow sells and they jump on a bandwagon of the streamer culture in the hope they'll get their subs count higher.
    More or less true. There are couple of them that really are fed up. But vast majority of streamers or youtubers just ride the hype train...

  10. #70
    You got it backwards, some streamers loathe the games they play, but it's their job.

    Maybe they already hated the game for a long time and yes, now that it's popular to quit WoW they finally do it because they know there's an audience outside the game they hate.

    There's nothing hypocritical about quitting a bad job and one you hate doing for something else. Why are streamers any different? Some of them can finally get rid of it and try something new

  11. #71
    When streaming is your livelihood you'll go where the money is. People seem to think of games or the companies that make them as sports teams they must support through thick and thin, but they are just a product to be used or discarded like any other.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    ff14 is an ancient game anyway (in terms of the main nature of it). I played it about 3 or 4 years ago and I knew it was nothing too special as a replacement (since it did nothing really new), and I find it fascinating that the creator himself said it's meant to be a "japanese wow".

    - - - Updated - - -


    I don't know if Asmongold is braver than others, but a lot of others don't have to be afraid these days. He had multiple times more views with his "exodus to ff14" streams so it's obvious that a lot of others that jumped into the bandwagon didn't have to be afraid to hate on wow (or at least they might have reasons to think that even if it's short term).
    Are there some things FF14 does that are nice? Sure. But it's still feels ancient as fuck. I played FF11 for many years and aside from being able to solo things now, it more or less feels the same. Large, empty, soulless, and oddly amazingly money hungry with that store. Like holy shit, I don't want to hear anymore Blizzard store whining ever.

    Asmongold thrives on controversy. One minute WoW is the most amazing thing ever, the next it sucks. He does nothing but whine, gets carried like a bad casual you'd have in your raid guild that's just there for the gear, and has an amazingly toxic audience as seen when he did his FF14 stream. You know as soon as the next patch/expansion hits, he's back unfortunately.
    Just don't reply to me. Please. If you can help it.

  13. #73
    Because its hypocritical to stop covering or playing a game that has predatory sexual deviants for executives? Along with other human rights issues like the blitzchung issue? Is that a company you want to support?
    Quote Originally Posted by TrollHunter3000 View Post
    How the fuck is this trolling?

    Discussing moderation is against the rules. Infracted.

  14. #74
    Everybody's an expert

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    you are missing the point completely and at this point I'm done discussing with you. It's like talking to a dense wall.
    If you are incapable to answer then don't answer at all; you saying "I'm above you" is not an answer; it's admitting you have no arguments other than hate.
    Tell us exactly how frost mage will PLAY differently (it's the word you used) if the spells behaved like current arcane's.
    I suspect your problem is mixing up how something "feels" in your mind when you think about it with GAMEPLAY.

  16. #76
    It's entirely hypocritical, not partly. But the joke is on their viewers.

  17. #77
    I would not want to stream a game that's become boring af too.

    Gotta have fun doing your job efter all.
    Do you hear the voices too?

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Kauko View Post
    More or less true. There are couple of them that really are fed up. But vast majority of streamers or youtubers just ride the hype train...
    Even some that are fed up I think their reasoning to explain it is - in part - misguided (since they may be confusing their personal life having moved on with the game having changed). E.g. Preach is spearheading the argument that supposedly tier sets were so amazing (for changing the rotation) and that now the game is so grinding-oriented with uninteresting "tier sets" etc. That's so absolutist and effectively wrong because a) Legendaries change the rotation too b) The game was ALWAYS grinding-oriented and c) The game was always rng-oriented (and it was WAY worse on early Legion and some of those people pretend problems mainly started mid-BfA).

  19. #79
    Wow players copium the thread lol. Easier answer, most of the big streamers been tried of this game since legion introduced the shit show systems, it never got better or removed. But then, they got an opportunity to keep making money and just go do something less shit. Thats not what hypocrisy means. Its just quitting your job, for a better job.
    Last edited by minteK917; 2021-08-09 at 10:59 AM.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpcat View Post
    It's entirely hypocritical, not partly. But the joke is on their viewers.
    I can not say completely because WoW definitely deserves criticism, e.g. the subsystems are overengineered and grinding-oriented for little reason other than sub fees (people often say "MMOs are like that" but that's flawed: NOTHING says MMOs have to be like that: it's just like that because we're used to be served that).
    But obviously when they say it's now somehow terribad and somehow 2 or 3 expansions ago was somehow amazing it's absolutist nonsense.

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