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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Same reason some NPC's literally have 100% immunity shields in certain cases, or simply can't be harmed by anything until it becomes relevant to the plot. The fact that we don't kill Sylvanas in the SoD raid isn't really a mark of her power relative to us or anything else.
    It'd say it actually is and us being able to take her to 50% only is intended to show us we didn't really injure her at all. When the cinematic plays, she just leaves us and flies to the Jailer, unharmed, with no injuries or any other sings of battle, even with a smirk on her face.

  2. #142
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TickTickTick View Post
    It'd say it actually is and us being able to take her to 50% only is intended to show us we didn't really injure her at all. When the cinematic plays, she just leaves us and flies to the Jailer, unharmed, with no injuries or any other sings of battle, even with a smirk on her face.
    The whole purpose of the Sylvanas encounter in SoD is just a magician's hand to distract us away from what the Jailer is up to in Oribos. Basically, the Jailer could just keep reinforcing Sylvanas for as long as it took - she was just his convenient bulwark, as shown when she finally turns against him and he no-sells her attack then leaves her to our mercies with barely an effort.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  3. #143
    Over 9000! Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    A fair point, but i think what bothers me the most here is that this time, it managed to invade the actual gameplay.
    Well, some people have been complaining for years about there being too much MMO and too little RPG in WoW. SL is perhaps Ion's answer to the discussion
    If the Janitor managed to pwn Azeroth:

    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    "Die, wold soul of *incomprehensible mumbling* with your death my plan to *incomprehensible mumbling* finally fullfilled and *incomprehensible mumbling*!"

  4. #144
    Blademaster
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    I ignore WoW shit for a while and come back to the story becoming even worse. These writers are some else...
    "Lol" said the scorpion, "lmao"

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnaroo View Post
    I ignore WoW shit for a while and come back to the story becoming even worse. These writers are some else...
    Lmao, same here. The end of this expac will be some serious trash based on the obvious trajectory that Danuser has laid out.
    "Father, is it over? I see only darkness before me."

  6. #146
    Can we just appreciate how much they improved their in-game custcenes with that one?

    Instead of them only using /talk to convey the whole dialogue, they actually animated them accordingly. It really shows and conveys much emotion. It's about time they did that.
    I'm tempted to apply for a moderator position, just so i can go moderator on your asses.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Pretty much the only way this villain will be worthwhile is if he at least partially wins. This has been said about tons of villains but all of them at least had some other stories to lean back on and there was enough juice in the setting conflict-wise that their victory would derail things. Such is not the case here. If the Blue Man wins, they can justify any string of nonsense for the follow-up while also allowing them to freely change any amount of poor plot lines. Additionally it'll be a feat that's all his own and not off-handedly prescribed to him by other, earlier characters.
    Well, he's already got a partial victory in the form of getting all the infinity stones and flexing in front of us wearing his new armor during his "just as planned" speech. After all we're talking about Blizzard who have gone on record saying Tyrande using her new-found God powers to lose a duel to Nathanos at Darkshore was getting "her revenge for the Night Elves". So I wouldn't really get my hopes up especially if we consider how unlikely a 9.3 patch is looking with the current schedule.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripzzz View Post
    Lmao, same here. The end of this expac will be some serious trash based on the obvious trajectory that Danuser has laid out.
    It has already leaked actually:



    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Pretty much the only way this villain will be worthwhile is if he at least partially wins. This has been said about tons of villains but all of them at least had some other stories to lean back on and there was enough juice in the setting conflict-wise that their victory would derail things. Such is not the case here. If the Blue Man wins, they can justify any string of nonsense for the follow-up while also allowing them to freely change any amount of poor plot lines. Additionally it'll be a feat that's all his own and not off-handedly prescribed to him by other, earlier characters.
    Or at least have his faction continue to be a threat. That's a weakness in WoW. Players are just working down a list of established villains that are being turned into loot pinatas.

    At least if you kill the main villain, have a successor in place, or at least a cult that will honor their leader and vow revenge.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Well, he's already got a partial victory in the form of getting all the infinity stones and flexing in front of us wearing his new armor during his "just as planned" speech. After all we're talking about Blizzard who have gone on record saying Tyrande using her new-found God powers to lose a duel to Nathanos at Darkshore was getting "her revenge for the Night Elves". So I wouldn't really get my hopes up especially if we consider how unlikely a 9.3 patch is looking with the current schedule.
    Yes, but nobody cares about the infinity stones or about anything he said in that cutscene, firstly because it's boring and secondly because the cinematic only exists so that Sylvanas can change her mind. The sigils and his holding rights over them are a meme for a reason. That however is actually a point in favor of having him win. Not that it'll happen, just on practical grounds. The plot now is bad, but going back to Azeroth means dealing with, as @Ivarr points out a setting that's completely decimated in terms of villains and on top of that has every character be a bargain bin interchangable peacenik. Having the Blue Man snap his fingers at the end of this gives them a fig leaf to do whatever they want going forward and adjust any number of elements that don't work. It's not like there's anything remotely worthwhile about the post-BFA status quo to lose and the likelihood that they'll bank hard on nostalgia for the next one to try and win back the crowd is very high.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-08-21 at 06:01 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    It's not like there's anything remotely worthwhile about the post-BFA status quo to lose and the likelihood that they'll bank hard on nostalgia for the next one to try and win back the crowd is very high.
    I'm not even sure if there even is anything to salvage in terms of nostalgia. Feels like we've killed everything off and now the afterlife is off the table as well.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  11. #151
    This book is amazing. It's a compendium to A Song of Ice and Fire. And rather than cheaply milking its success it actually reads as an in-world encyclopedia of the history of Westeros for millenia. Kingdom after kingdom gets discussed in bizarre detail. Generations of rulers each with their own quirks and distinct fates.

    And all of these stories accumulate into Ned Stark taking his sons to execute a guard of the Black Watch who tried to warn the world the walkers have returned, and on their home discover dire wolf pups, one for each child.



    Even though the story will end in one giant cheesefest, for both the show and the books. What this fictional encyclopedia reveals, is that the history of Westeros has been one big cheesefest with moments of relative petty squabbles in between.

    Blizzard actually managed to achieve this several times. The Dark Portal destroyed Draenor. The worlds settled on both ends. Then Archimonde almost destroyed the World Tree and Arthas scourged Lordaeron and again, the world settled. Not always in a prosperous way, but even the plague lands ended up an equilibrium scourge rather than something teetering on the brink of destruction.

    What's important for WoW, as an MMO, is that within these periods of calm, all kinds of groups and communities formed. Cultists, warbands, separatists. Petty warlords that exploited the power vacuums that these massive conflicts left behind.


    It's been a while since the writers allowed the world to just settle down and let these situations form 'organically'. Rather than just continuously raising the stakes for these handful of main characters, WoW would benefit enormously from just kicking back, going through each of these zones and speculate what has happened after the big bads have been removed.

    Especially because these massive superheroes have been continuously preoccupied in an intergalactic war, it's suffices to say that all kinds of nasty individuals saw their chance to carve out their slice of Azeroth.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivarr View Post
    Even though the story will end in one giant cheesefest, for both the show and the books.
    Some people might disagree.
    https://twitter.com/stevedanuser/status/1127781070701678592?
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Yeah he also thinks his writing of sylvannas is brilliant, so

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    lmao I honestly forgot that.

    I also liked the finale. But that's because the five books did all the heavy lifting for the show. Especially for Daenerys there's far more clues that would predict the way she would respond to finding out that nobody was waiting for her return. I expect G RR Martin to write at least that part of the books very much similarly to what happened in the show.

    G RR Martin himself stated the show would have needed 15 seasons to be faithful, we got a little more than half of that.

    https://screenrant.com/game-thrones-...rge-rr-martin/

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    I'm not even sure if there even is anything to salvage in terms of nostalgia. Feels like we've killed everything off and now the afterlife is off the table as well.
    Even more benefit to a selective reset that brings back whatever they figure will rake in the nostalgia bucks.

    @Ivarr

    I still don't get why some people were shitting on Fire and Blood. Sure the fat man should be writing the main series instead of fondling himself and lamenting how they fucked up his payday along with the show post-Season 5, but it's solid. That's said it's also inapplicable to Warcraft. By default the format of the MMO means it can't show stretches of nothing as every aspect of the story must be conducive to the end goal of killing X of something to collect Y number of its asses.

    And yes, Daenerys going batshit isn't a bad route by itself, it's bad because the show sacrificed the entire point of the Mereen storyline building in that direction ('dragons plant no trees') so they could have Tyrion show up, steal Barristan's plotline and make dick jokes with Varys. Also cutting out Young Griff fucked them beyond repair as did turning Euron into the Joker/Jack Sparrow.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-08-21 at 06:52 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  16. #156
    Elemental Lord Kathranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivarr View Post
    G RR Martin himself stated the show would have needed 15 seasons to be faithful, we got a little more than half of that.
    The show did a pretty solid job (about as good as could be expected) of adapting the first three books. Three books, four seasons. The third and fourth seasons were the best the show had to offer, and was really the only time they actually have the necessary screen time to adequately adapt one of the books (two seasons for one book).

    After that the show went into overdrive and crammed the next two books (four plus seasons of material) into a single season. And then in the sixth season basically used up the last handful of crumbs Martin had already divulged to them or hinted at.

    That left them with seasons seven and eight to wrap everything up, but with them skipping the vast majority of books 4-6, they had almost none of the underpinning framework needed to make Dany's invasion and the final war work. They kinda just winged it, and rather than even committing to two full seasons, only did abridged seasons.

    If you look at the fact that Martin intends to finish the series off with two more massive tomes, which will probably be bigger than any of the previous books if he finishes them, the reality is that the book series is barely 2/3rds complete, if that, since the first two books were comparatively short.
    Last edited by Kathranis; 2021-08-21 at 06:57 PM.

  17. #157
    Yeah as a fan I'm just happy we got specific scenes done well. Like that fight in the arena, or the Red Wedding. I'll just mentally fill the rest in with what I gathered from the books myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    If you look at the fact that Martin intends to finish the series off with two more massive tomes, which will probably be bigger than any of the previous books if he finishes them, the reality is that the book series is barely 2/3rds complete, if that, since the first two books were comparatively short.
    I expect him to finish the 7th book, should his health permit, much faster than this 6th book. He's currently taking so long because he's already moving all the pieces in position for the 7th book to topple them in rapid succession.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    That's said it's also inapplicable to Warcraft. By default the format of the MMO means it can't show stretches of nothing as every aspect of the story must be conducive to the end goal of killing X of something to collect Y number of its asses.
    That's true, but it's mainly true because Blizzard is shoehorning their MMO into being a cooperative single player rather than this massive online experience.

    Had they embraced and innovated towards the 'massive' aspect then they would've eased up on the self-contained stories and expanded on self-perpetuating conflicts. Storywise each major group of villains would always have vaguely known, always shrouded head honcho that remains untouchable but keeps sending forth underlings.

    The bad guys in an MMO would be more similar to G-Man in Half Life. Constantly walking around in the background causing events to happen. Events that are preferably procedurally variated.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivarr View Post
    That's true, but it's mainly true because Blizzard is shoehorning their MMO into being a cooperative single player rather than this massive online experience.

    Had they embraced and innovated towards the 'massive' aspect then they would've eased up on the self-contained stories and expanded on self-perpetuating conflicts. Storywise each major group of villains would always have vaguely known, always shrouded head honcho that remains untouchable but keeps sending forth underlings.

    The bad guys in an MMO would be more similar to G-Man in Half Life. Constantly walking around in the background causing events to happen. Events that are preferably procedurally variated.
    I agree entirely in principle, though I'm naff on procedural generation given how I've yet to see a single MMO do it well. Blizzard give up on every attempt at even small roguelite elements the second they aren't the proverbial golden goose. See Island Expeditions and Torghast.

    Blizzard were justifiable at the start when they didn't think this'd last but when you're butchering multiple expansion baddies in a single go in Legion/BFA knowing that you're going to keep this MMO indefinitely in at worst Runescape/TOR-style conditions you run out of excuses to be this wasteful with characters and the setting.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I agree entirely in principle, though I'm naff on procedural generation given how I've yet to see a single MMO do it well. Blizzard give up on every attempt at even small roguelite elements the second they aren't the proverbial golden goose. See Island Expeditions and Torghast.
    In a way World Quests are procedural gameplay in their most rudimentary setting. A humongous amount of handcrafted content, BUT distributed in a random order and with an extra layer of random emissaries providing players varied incentives to complete certain of them. Invasions should have been the next step, where they add another permutation to the amount of content that's provided through the World Quests. Because invasions are conditional on what a group of players accomplish, this would be the first foray into player-generated content.

    Alas, Blizzard skirted right past this moment.

    Blizzard were justifiable at the start when they didn't think this'd last but when you're butchering multiple expansion baddies in a single go in Legion/BFA knowing that you're going to keep this MMO indefinitely in at worst Runescape/TOR-style conditions you run out of excuses to be this wasteful with characters and the setting.
    Yes, a more prudent writer would have constantly added loose threads to each expansion such that the story becomes renewable. The prominent role of Naga in Legion providing a segway into Nazjatar and Azshara's raid was a good move.

    The Allied Race quests are probably what Blizzard intends to be the new cans of worms that are about to be opened. But it's too little, too exclusive, and also too late.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivarr View Post
    The bad guys in an MMO would be more similar to G-Man in Half Life. Constantly walking around in the background causing events to happen. Events that are preferably procedurally variated.
    I disagree, you do need to topple the badguys otherwise it gets boring. Procedurally generated content can work but in an RPG it needs to exist within a meaningful story framework. Personally, I'm not that interested in ML/procedural generation in RPGs until it can create responsive and meaningfully customized game experiences which is a fair ways off yet. Until then it's better to handcraft the content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Blizzard were justifiable at the start when they didn't think this'd last but when you're butchering multiple expansion baddies in a single go in Legion/BFA knowing that you're going to keep this MMO indefinitely in at worst Runescape/TOR-style conditions you run out of excuses to be this wasteful with characters and the setting.
    agree, using Emerald Nightmare/Xavius to start Legion was a waste and an overreaction to "orc fatigue" in WOD. They would have been better served giving the Legion some alternate color schemes and more visual variation to prevent fel-green fatigue. Using up Nazjatar in BFA was baffling given it had been eagerly anticipated for a decade+, and again was an overreaction to player feedback, namely Vashjir. Should have asked "how do we make this work better" rather than saying, "lol, drain the b*tch".

    IMO, killing Archi in WOD also felt forced -- I would have made Gul'dan final boss and contrived some other explanation for the start of Legion, which avoids the insanity of bringing alt-Gul'dan to Azeroth and somehow having Varian be killed by an alternate-universe version of an orc warlock he had never met before. I suspect part of the motive in offing Archi was because they wanted to focus on KJ's storyline in Legion, which would've been nice but didn't pan out to much.

    So look, we make googly eyes about how fucked up the plot has become in the past 3 years, personally I've long since stopped playing due to this and the new grind gameplay, but it was always a mess. And it's easy for the higher ups to be nonchalant and dismissive when it comes to the story aspect of the game. But the characters are the faces of the brand and character loyalty is a big part of brand loyalty. In this sense the story team is managing an important asset portfolio and should be held up to par for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    She lost against Arthas for purpose. She wanted to feed Quel'thalas to hungering darkness.

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