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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by kansor View Post
    I disagree, you do need to topple the badguys otherwise it gets boring. Procedurally generated content can work but in an RPG it needs to exist within a meaningful story framework. Personally, I'm not that interested in ML/procedural generation in RPGs until it can create responsive and meaningfully customized game experiences which is a fair ways off yet. Until then it's better to handcraft the content.
    And yet this is what we're doing. Every week we're killing the same characters, often in the same order.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivarr View Post
    And yet this is what we're doing. Every week we're killing the same characters, often in the same order.
    But I think people actually prefer reliving a meaningful moment to living a new moment that has no significance.
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    She lost against Arthas for purpose. She wanted to feed Quel'thalas to hungering darkness.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by kansor View Post
    But I think people actually prefer reliving a meaningful moment to living a new moment that has no significance.
    Exactly. It's like watching a movie vs 2 hours of security camera footage of a busy street.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Mic_128 View Post
    Exactly. It's like watching a movie vs 2 hours of security camera footage of a busy street.
    To each their own of course but if I'd have to watch the same movie each week it'd better be a masterpiece of a movie or I'd much rather stick to watching a busy street.

  5. #165
    The Patient Hastis's Avatar
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    Now i understand words "you think you do but you dont" i got that when i think about playing retail wow again

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Jshadowhunter View Post
    Sylvannas: "Let me explain why I'm doing this-"
    Anduin: "NO WAIT! ... until next patch."

    Top Blizzard Writing.
    I must say, even without playing WoW, this is easy enough to understand.

    Are people really not smart enough to understand something that obvious or are they just trolling? Hard to tell these days.

    Since people just love as much to throw shit on WoW as they love to praise games like FF14 over nothing, I would guess it's trolling. Not sure what more sad, though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The whole purpose of the Sylvanas encounter in SoD is just a magician's hand to distract us away from what the Jailer is up to in Oribos. Basically, the Jailer could just keep reinforcing Sylvanas for as long as it took - she was just his convenient bulwark, as shown when she finally turns against him and he no-sells her attack then leaves her to our mercies with barely an effort.
    Yes, very obvious. Watching the raid and the whole story around it and Sylvanas in general, it's quite clear that she is a big distraction and going for her more than pointless after her biggest task - the destruction of the Helmet of Domination to open the rift between... the 'normal universe'(?) and the realm of death - is completed.

    But watching people talk about it, it seems they just don't WANT to understand it or see it in the worst possible way.

    For example the outrage about the 'I will never serve'. From her point of few, she worked together with a literal god, 1000 levels above her, who still accept her as a partner. Sure, his own problems played a role in this, being imprisoned in this maw and bound by domination magic he over time overcame and used for his own goals, soemthing that likely also created a link in Sylvanas' mind between her and him, since the story he told her was not so far from her own.

    Sure, he betrayed her in the end, but it's not like the current system would be one most humans in RL would accept. If we would find out that there is a life after death and it would look like that of the Shadowlands, that would cause gigantic chaos and many, many people would go the Sylvanas route, trying to destroy that system at all cost.

    People also seem to dislike her attack, but that was clearly just symbolical. His reaction is also interesting and looks like he would have indeed kept her as close underling, much closer than a mortal would actually have the right and luck for. But he also got no prob to let that pitiful mortal just fall.

    Without playing the game, I think the worst solution would be to just overpower him, would not fit well after how gigantic the end of the Burning Legion and Sargeras as their leader had been. With the focus finally on Zolvar(?) and away from Sylvanas as pointless main target, the story around him should now get priority and hopefully deeper than just "more power".

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Miriamel105 View Post
    Yes, very obvious. Watching the raid and the whole story around it and Sylvanas in general, it's quite clear that she is a big distraction and going for her more than pointless after her biggest task - the destruction of the Helmet of Domination to open the rift between... the 'normal universe'(?) and the realm of death - is completed.

    But watching people talk about it, it seems they just don't WANT to understand it or see it in the worst possible way.
    It's not that people don't get it (it being the plot). It's more that they disagree with the premise on a more fundamental level. People disagree with the decision to design her encounter as one where she once again doesn't lose. They could have told the same story with Sylvanas being a distraction for the Jailer and still have us defeat her - you know as is customary when you beat a raid boss. They deliberately chose not to and instead had her get away scot-free for what... the fourth time now?

    People disagree with the fact that a batshit insane evil character like Sylvanas always comes out on top even when you physically defeat her in the game.

    People disagree with the fact that the writers are deliberately pushing her story in a direction where she can't be held accountable for her actions and will likely escape punishment.
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2021-08-30 at 06:25 PM.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    It's not that people don't get it (it being the plot). It's more that they disagree with the premise on a more fundamental level. People disagree with the decision to design her encounter as one where she once again doesn't lose. They could have told the same story with Sylvanas being a distraction for the Jailer and still have us defeat her - you know as is customary when you beat a raid boss. They deliberately chose not to and instead had her get away scot-free for what... the fourth time now?

    People disagree with the fact that a batshit insane evil character like Sylvanas always comes out on top even when you physically defeat her in the game.

    People disagree with the fact that the writers are deliberately pushing her story in a direction where she can't be held accountable for her actions and will likely escape punishment.
    Did you also complain about Jaina?

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Did you also complain about Jaina?
    Why, of course. How could I forget about the worst mustache twirling villain of all time... Jaina Proudmoore?
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Why, of course. How could I forget about the worst mustache twirling villain of all time... Jaina Proudmoore?
    So... you didnt mind that Jaina wasnt defeated in the raid.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    So... you didnt mind that Jaina wasnt defeated in the raid.
    Imagine if not only did you not harm a raid boss in any meaningful way, but you also ended up being obligated to help that boss out as the opposite faction next patch and kill your own side so you can do so. Horrifying.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    So... you didnt mind that Jaina wasnt defeated in the raid.
    Don't get me wrong, I think the premise is very much stupid. Don't turn a character into a raid boss if the encounter is going to have zero impact on the character anyways. Though, I guess you could argue that Jaina was at least beaten and had a "not like this" instead of "enough" line. But I don't think the two encounters are comparable besides the fact that both bosses survive the encounter.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    But I don't think the two encounters are comparable besides the fact that both bosses survive the encounter.
    Right, I was actualy forced to help Jaina next patch.

    Although that might change soon...ish?

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Right, I was actualy forced to help Jaina next patch.

    Although that might change soon...ish?
    No, this time Sylvanas will help you.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I think the premise is very much stupid. Don't turn a character into a raid boss if the encounter is going to have zero impact on the character anyways. Though, I guess you could argue that Jaina was at least beaten and had a "not like this" instead of "enough" line. But I don't think the two encounters are comparable besides the fact that both bosses survive the encounter.
    The two encounters are not just comparable, they're basically identical in committing the cardinal sin of raid bosses, i.e that you could cut the fight out and nothing would change. Jaina's back to full as soon as she returns and you're doing her bitchwork and killing your own side to help her next patch. Sylvanas succeeds in her goal and her getting knocked out has zero to do with the players, they might as well not even exist. Jaina's story follows on from her going through a nonsensical series of character turns to accept love and peace into her heart. Sylvanas's story is currently ongoing a nonsensical series of character turns to accept love and peace into her heart.

    Jaina in general is to Horde players what Sylvanas is to Alliance players, with the caveat that Jaina is more morally upright and also has far more favourable plot treatment. There's never a point where you as Alliance hug it out with Sylvanas, hell the only time you quest with her is during the Broken Shore intro. Meanwhile the Horde is inundated with helping her out and having the narrative tell you how bad you are for fighting her even though she's been running a war effort against your side since Cataclysm and the worst thing to happen to her on account of the Horde that she didn't actively endorse (so no killing her dad, natch) was having her evacuated city destroyed for running said war effort.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-08-31 at 09:40 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The two encounters are not just comparable, they're basically identical in committing the cardinal sin of raid bosses, i.e that you could cut the fight out and nothing would change. Jaina's back to full as soon as she returns and you're doing her bitchwork and killing your own side to help her next patch. Sylvanas succeeds in her goal and her getting knocked out has zero to do with the players, they might as well not even exist. Jaina's story follows on from her going through a nonsensical series of character turns to accept love and peace into her heart. Sylvanas's story is currently ongoing a nonsensical series of character turns to accept love and peace into her heart.

    Jaina in general is to Horde players what Sylvanas is to Alliance players, with the caveat that Jaina is more morally upright and also has far more favourable plot treatment. There's never a point where you as Alliance hug it out with Sylvanas, hell the only time you quest with her is during the Broken Shore intro. Meanwhile the Horde is inundated with helping her out, having the narrative tell you how bad you are for fighting her even though she's been running a war effort against your side since Cataclysm and the worst thing to happen to her on account of the Horde that she didn't actively endorse (so no killing her dad, natch) was having her evacuated city destroyed for running said war effort.
    I don't disagree with the first part. I think the encounters are similar in that they are completely useless to the story and that Horde and Alliance hate each character respectively but that's where the similarities end.

    I think it's perfectly fine to hate Jaina and the weird favouritism Blizzard has going on for her as a Horde player but to imply that she's on the same level as Sylvanas is a bit disingenuous. Neither in terms of scope nor in terms of morality does she come anywhere near Sylvanas. She's more comparable to Thrall (whom we also had to help as Alliance players btw.).
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    I don't disagree with the first part. I think the encounters are similar in that they are completely useless to the story and that Horde and Alliance hate each character respectively but that's where the similarities end.

    I think it's perfectly fine to hate Jaina and the weird favouritism Blizzard has going on for her as a Horde player but to imply that she's on the same level as Sylvanas is a bit disingenuous. Neither in terms of scope nor in terms of morality does she come anywhere near Sylvanas. She's more comparable to Thrall (whom we also had to help as Alliance players btw.).
    In terms of morality they're nowhere close, I'll give you that, after all when Jaina tried to destroy an inhabited city she was interrupted twice after pulling the trigger while not even Sadfang's moping could stop the intercontinental ballistic catapults. When it comes to scope she's much more egregious. There's no equivalent narrative treatment vis a vis the opposite faction when it comes to Sylvanas as there is with Jaina. There's no moment where you're told to kill Alliance in order to protect Sylvanas or advance her interests, she never gives you quests or teams up with you while you ignore that you were killing each other until five minutes ago. Even the most minor issue Jaina's involved in is wrung for endless pathos, context be damned. They're still going on and on about Theramore despite the mundanity of destroying a city during a course of war and the fact that it was evacuated of all things. The entire Horde rebellion story in BFA hinged on us caring about the enslavement and raising of her brother despite multiple classes doing worse over the course of doing their rotation.

    Setting narrative aside, power-wise there's also no contest. There's no situation where six Alliance main characters plus a raid boss run from Sylvanas because they simply can't take her the way Jaina's intro in BFA goes. No situation where Sylvanas singlehandedly saves the faction twice and the entire rest of the expansion hinges on her not using the powers displayed there to end the war on her own as with Jaina. Unless you count Bolvar or Sadfang, she never wins a fight against even one major Alliance character without outside input.

    I'd not compare her to Thrall because the context in which the Alliance help Thrall is when he's LARPing as Superman after the Alliance try to off him in the goblin intro at that. The context where the Horde help Jaina is invariably after she's just been our headline antagonist. The closest Sylvanas will come to Jaina-tier favoritism will be after this patch when you're sent to collect 8 plot devices to rub her better and even then I doubt you'll be capping footment in the head to get it done.

    Though one silver lining of SL's shitshow has definitely been letting everyone experience the unique thrill of playing through the Horde BFA storyline as a non-peacenik. Beautiful.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-08-31 at 10:20 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    In terms of morality they're nowhere close, I'll give you that, after all when Jaina tried to destroy an inhabited city she was interrupted twice after pulling the trigger while not even Sadfang's moping could stop the intercontinental ballistic catapults. When it comes to scope she's much more egregious. There's no equivalent narrative treatment vis a vis the opposite faction when it comes to Sylvanas as there is with Jaina. There's no moment where you're told to kill Alliance in order to protect Sylvanas or advance her interests, she never gives you quests or teams up with you while you ignore that you were killing each other until five minutes ago. Even the most minor issue Jaina's involved in is wrung for endless pathos, context be damned. They're still going on and on about Theramore despite the mundanity of destroying a city during a course of war and the fact that it was evacuated of all things. The entire Horde rebellion story in BFA hinged on us caring about the enslavement and raising of her brother despite multiple classes doing worse over the course of doing their rotation.

    Setting narrative aside, power-wise there's also no contest. There's no situation where six Alliance main characters plus a raid boss run from Sylvanas because they simply can't take her the way Jaina's intro in BFA goes. No situation where Sylvanas singlehandedly saves the faction twice and the entire rest of the expansion hinges on her not using the powers displayed there to end the war on her own as with Jaina. Unless you count Bolvar or Sadfang, she never wins a fight against even one major Alliance character without outside input.

    I'd not compare her to Thrall because the context in which the Alliance help Thrall is when he's LARPing as Superman after the Alliance try to off him in the goblin intro at that. The context where the Horde help Jaina is invariably after she's just been our headline antagonist. The closest Sylvanas will come to Jaina-tier favoritism will be after this patch when you're sent to collect 8 plot devices to rub her better and even then I doubt you'll be capping footment in the head to get it done.

    Though one silver lining of SL's shitshow has definitely been letting everyone experience the unique thrill of playing through the Horde BFA storyline as a non-peacenik. Beautiful.
    This is a bit silly. Jaina is for all intents and purposes pro-Horde and the OG peacenik character with a few streaks of anti-horde sentiment whenever you guys manage to fill the bar by killing enough of her friends/people. She's also incidentally the reason the Horde exists in its current state to begin with due to her betraying the Alliance and being an accessory to the murder of her own father. I also don't understand why you would say "oh Thrall doesn't count because we only help him when he's Goel Son of Goku" but then complain about teaming up with Jaina during her peacenik phases. And what did Jaina exactly do to the Horde? Throw them out of the human Kingdom of Dalaran during a war? Said something mean at the end of SoO? Lead an Alliance offensive to kill a king that wasn't even affiliated with the Horde?

    Sylvanas on the other hand has been an unambiguous villain to the Alliance from the very beginning. It started with her betraying Garithos and effectively wiping out the remnants of the Alliance resistance in Lordaeron. Then she went on to (as we now know) kill Bolvar Fordragon at the Wrathgate which caused a new war between Horde and Alliance, raise King Galen Trollbane, attack and wipe out Southshore and Gilneas with the new plague, kill Greymane's son and heir, kidnap his daughter and raise his people as weapons to be used against him, build concentration camps on conquered human territories, burn down Teldrassil after ravaging through Ashenvale and Darkshore... you get the idea.

    I get that you have a distaste for peacenik characters (so do I) but these two aren't really comparable in my view.
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2021-08-31 at 12:45 PM.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    This is a bit silly. Jaina is for all intends and purposes pro-Horde and the OG peacenik character with a few streaks of anti-horde sentiment whenever you guys manage to fill the bar by killing enough of her friends/people. She's also incidentally the reason the Horde exists in its current state to begin with due to her betraying the Alliance and being an accessory to the murder of her own father. I also don't understand why you would say "oh Thrall doesn't count because we only help him when he's Goel Son of Goku" but then complain about teaming up with Jaina during her peacenik phases. And what did Jaina exactly do to the Horde? Throw them out of the human Kingdom of Dalaran during a war? Said something mean at the end of SoO? Lead an Alliance offensive to kill a king that wasn't even affiliated with the Horde?
    All piss takes aside, Sylvanas is obviously more evil than Jaina. I won't quibble with some of the examples, like how holding Gilneas against Sylvanas but Dazar'alor not against Jaina is questionable at best, because I don't really care about their respective moral wrap sheet so much as the difference in framing and character treatment. Sylvanas is indeed unambiguously an Alliance villain. Unambigously being the operative term - up until the following patch, if you play Alliance, you fight Sylvanas and your goal when encountering her is to defeat her with the only exception being Broken Shore. Jaina is frustrating to the Horde in a way that Sylvanas isn't because she is anything but unambiguous.

    Jaina was indeed the OG peacenik character to the point of offing her dad for the orcs. Then in Cataclysm they had her wage war on the Horde under the reasonable pretext that Garrosh wasn't going to attack her. Said war had its own drama with Camp Meme, Honor's Stand and what have you, but ultimately it was cast on both sides as sensible action and Jaina being forced to involve herself in such a group, with her group in this case even being the aggressors could have resulted in an interesting examination of how sometimes you have to compromise with your ideals to keep those under your care safe. Of course, that story doesn't happen. Instead, we have Tides of War where the entire above part is swept under the rug and the ongoing Cataclysm war is turned into a skirmish with an inexplicable peace treaty in between where Baine first turns into his modern self and goes on about 'legitimate military targets'. All for the purpose of turning what could be a natural plot development that lead into further drama and had Jaina square her pre-Cata characterization and Cata actions into adopting a more realistic view than 'lol just kill my dad fam' into the crucible of the Horde's complete neutering.

    Tides of War ignores Cataclysm entirely in service of offing the Horde's Warchief and does everything it can to frame what's a standard act of war as being a comical act of evil. It fails spectacularly in doing so, since it also has to have Jaina succeed by evacuating people, but in the process of doing so it turned the entire Horde cast into amnesia victims, turned Baine into his current neutered self and served to enable Mists which turned the orcs into a meme on their own faction. We're meant to side with the likes of Aethas and Baine or the various ostensibly neutral factions as they side with Jaina over their own group. It's not a problem that Dalaran prefers Horde and has a double standard - that's entirely in keeping with their characterization, it's that the story doesn't frame this as a double standard but as yet another demonstration of this character's moral virtue. It's main result - that Jaina was anti-Horde now and swapped places with Varian is perfectly fine, as is the Purge as a character beat, but the framing of it relative to the Horde player experience is to make this character the face of the faction's ongoing degeneration.

    I don't take issue with helping Jaina in neutral content since it barely happens, she doesn't appear in either WoD or Legion. It's that our ties we're either told we should be sad for Jaina when we have zero issue with it, as in Mists, or should actively help her at our own expense is the only times she appears before Shadowlands. The BFA Alliance-side story for Jaina is one where I think we're both in the minority opinion of finding it poor, but Horde-side it's tinged at every turn by not only having this character be shown to be stronger than us and just shooting the shit, but also more morally virtuous, to the point where the highes aspiration is to kneecap ourselves for our benefit.

    The Thrall comparison is partial, but skindeep. When we go into Shadowlands after an expansion where Jaina has intermittently either kicked our asses or been our hero as we kill our own side on her behalf, of the three Horde characters present in the intro two are wastes of space who spend their time telling us how great Jaina is and the third is the world antagonist that they're there to stop. Sylvanas makes the characters around her dumbasses so the narrative can shill show smart she is and gets away with cosmetic damage after encounters with her enemies. Anduin does no wrong and so kills narrative in its crib. Jaina does wrong, but the narrative doesn't acknowledge it in the slightest and centers her opponents' experience on helping her out or talking about how she's the hottest thing since sex, like the 10k year old mage being amazed at what Jaina can do. That, not any moral parity, is why she's uniquely noxious Horde-side.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-08-31 at 01:12 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Miriamel105 View Post
    I must say, even without playing WoW, this is easy enough to understand.

    Are people really not smart enough to understand something that obvious or are they just trolling? Hard to tell these days.

    Since people just love as much to throw shit on WoW as they love to praise games like FF14 over nothing, I would guess it's trolling. Not sure what more sad, though.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yes, very obvious. Watching the raid and the whole story around it and Sylvanas in general, it's quite clear that she is a big distraction and going for her more than pointless after her biggest task - the destruction of the Helmet of Domination to open the rift between... the 'normal universe'(?) and the realm of death - is completed.

    But watching people talk about it, it seems they just don't WANT to understand it or see it in the worst possible way.

    For example the outrage about the 'I will never serve'. From her point of few, she worked together with a literal god, 1000 levels above her, who still accept her as a partner. Sure, his own problems played a role in this, being imprisoned in this maw and bound by domination magic he over time overcame and used for his own goals, soemthing that likely also created a link in Sylvanas' mind between her and him, since the story he told her was not so far from her own.

    Sure, he betrayed her in the end, but it's not like the current system would be one most humans in RL would accept. If we would find out that there is a life after death and it would look like that of the Shadowlands, that would cause gigantic chaos and many, many people would go the Sylvanas route, trying to destroy that system at all cost.

    People also seem to dislike her attack, but that was clearly just symbolical. His reaction is also interesting and looks like he would have indeed kept her as close underling, much closer than a mortal would actually have the right and luck for. But he also got no prob to let that pitiful mortal just fall.

    Without playing the game, I think the worst solution would be to just overpower him, would not fit well after how gigantic the end of the Burning Legion and Sargeras as their leader had been. With the focus finally on Zolvar(?) and away from Sylvanas as pointless main target, the story around him should now get priority and hopefully deeper than just "more power".
    it seems you dont really understand what it exactly is, that pisses ppls of.

    all what you said above is, imo, legit. but exactly thats the problem:

    Sylvanas, described in BfA as „da masta planer“, worked with a factor 1000 more powerful god. as a partner. and that super smart Sylvanas never thought about for the slightest, that she is just a tool and he could betray her??? really???

    its simply unreliable that a clever smart-ass, like Sylvanas was portraited, believes for even 1s she is a loyal partner, having equal rights, of some semi god. thats just dumb as fuck. and the unreliability in that, is what ppl made declaring it as a cheap shit story.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2021-08-31 at 01:05 PM.

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