Zovaal was the original... [Spoilers]

[Ihavewaffles]

Shadowlands villains: "I'm so far ahead that not even the wow writing team knows my plan!!"

[Kithelle]

"Yet he defied the will of the First Ones and sought to unmake the balance of the cosmos." I wish I knew more details on that. He must have done something terrible. Actually to get Arbiter's sigil Primus will need something Void equivalent as the Void on Shadowlands pretty much represents Death.

Perhaps the balance of life and death? Sylvanas seemed to think all life was better off dead/undead...and that hope was worthless. Maybe a world without death?

[Progenitor Aquarius]

didnt all the dreadlord stuff happen after he was already in prison?

Well, I’m just trying to put all puzzles together and it seems it was way earlier. You know that Everliving statuette in Korthia, it whispers: “ Hope. Betrayal. Sacrifice. Faces change. The tale does not”. I believe he means Titans here. Also there is a Dreadlord journal where they just say that they were infiltrating the whole universe and the Titans were the easiest to manipulate just need to put a force ahead of them that will threaten the Order. They were literally describing in details how they manipulate each cosmic force. The book is called: Enemy Infiltration - Preface.

[Ivarr]

What they need to do is have Zovaal survive this expansion. If he's just a one-and-done antagonist it will be a tremendous waste of time.

Even if ultimately he only becomes one of part of a new pantheon of villains, he needs to survive this expansion if they ever hope for him to have even a fraction of the gravitas that Sargeras enjoyed for two decades of WoW lore.

Yeah I agree. WoW is running out of villains. To set one up and finish one up within the same expansion is unsatisfying. The annoying part is that this entire expansion isn't even a good introduction for him, nor is SL putting in any work in establishing more characters and villains for future stories either.

They could've easily thrown a bunch of open loops during Legion, BfA and SL keeping shit brewing in the background, but currently all we get is a reference to light and void that's superficial and far from pertinent.

[Niwes]

What they need to do is have Zovaal survive this expansion. If he's just a one-and-done antagonist it will be a tremendous waste of time.

Even if ultimately he only becomes one of part of a new pantheon of villains, he needs to survive this expansion if they ever hope for him to have even a fraction of the gravitas that Sargeras enjoyed for two decades of WoW lore.

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I really don't see many similarities other than them both being traitors to their pantheons. Sargeras had a totally different origin, motivation, and goal.

And the outcast / traitor deity is one of the most universal mythological tropes.

huh? mmmmkkkkk

[pacotaco]

If Blizzard wants to sell another expansion then they better burry this First Ones in the next patch and never dig it up again. Increased stakes does not make for a better story and it definitely doesn't make for a more compelling setting.

All points to the First Ones being dead, taking the narrative role the "misterious precursors" that the Titans had earlier.

[Dhrizzle]

naah, way too complex for actual Blizz. they simply copy pasted the Sargeras story and give it other names and paints. does no one see this horrible cheap recycling here? its factually EXACT the same dumb fukin thing.

Makes sense, Sargeras just rwecycled Deathing or vice versa.

[Ivarr]

All points to the First Ones being dead, taking the narrative role the "misterious precursors" that the Titans had earlier.

Good. Digging into the Titans already was too far for my liking. The moment we were able to actually visit them they became the least interesting part about WoW.

[Lady Atia]

Good. Digging into the Titans already was too far for my liking. The moment we were able to actually visit them they became the least interesting part about WoW.

No it wasn't? Again, having something in your game that you never see is actually super boring. Why should I care for f.e. Elune if we never see her? I want to digg into details, not getting teased with vague stuff that never has any relevance. I hope we see a First One this Expansion <3

[pacotaco]

also females have a more calming nature about them in general i guess lol

It's human bias. Evolution ingrained certain intuitive pattern recognition on us, so we now associate some qualities with others (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_effect)

That's why when you see something fluffy and cute you don't expect that's a brutal killer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcxKIJTb3Hg

Or why we see females as caring, nurturing figures. Never wondered why all caretakers in WoW are female (Alextrazsa, Ysera, Winter Queen, etc) while the most evil villains are always male (Deathwing, Murozond, Old Gods, almost all demons, Denny & Zovaal, etc) and we all accept it without raising a brow?

[Niwes]

No it wasn't? Again, having something in your game that you never see is actually super boring. Why should I care for f.e. Elune if we never see her? I want to digg into details, not getting teased with vague stuff that never has any relevance. I hope we see a First One this Expansion <3

really no offense here, but „teased with vague stuff that never has any relevance“ is what i feel since mid BfA and foremost in the last cinematics. seems taste and point of view differs a lot here, between us.

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Shadowlands villains: "I'm so far ahead that not even the wow writing team knows my plan!!"

great vid. and sadly sooo true.

[Ivarr]

No it wasn't? Again, having something in your game that you never see is actually super boring. Why should I care for f.e. Elune if we never see her? I want to digg into details, not getting teased with vague stuff that never has any relevance. I hope we see a First One this Expansion <3

What I'm saying is that we never should be seeing the bottom of the barrel, and Blizzard is close to scraping it.

Expanding on Elune is great, there could be an entire culture built around Eluna, but we didn't have to meet her in person. Same for the Titans. The Vrykul cult worshipping the Titans in Stormheim were amazing. Stormheim is the most enigmatic place in WoW as far as I'm concerned. Blizzard nailed the unfathomable depth that lore could reach, right up until we get to walk around in the Halls of Valor and start stamping on Odyn's feet.

All of that was alleviated by introducing the First Ones, showing that Odyn was just a middle-manager. Good. Now create a cult around the First Ones if you have to. Create ruined temples and whatever. But don't let them meet us.

[deenman]

It's human bias. Evolution ingrained certain intuitive pattern recognition on us, so we now associate some qualities with others (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_effect)

That's why when you see something fluffy and cute you don't expect that's a brutal killer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcxKIJTb3Hg

Or why we see females as caring, nurturing figures. Never wondered why all caretakers in WoW are female (Alextrazsa, Ysera, Winter Queen, etc) while the most evil villains are always male (Deathwing, Murozond, Old Gods, almost all demons, Denny & Zovaal, etc) and we all accept it without raising a brow?

oh i agree,i should have made it more clear by saying they are perceved that way

[Nerovar]

And really, a feminine variant of those elementals would literally be a floating pair of tits, hardly an improvement.

Speak for yourself.

[Claymore]

I feel like if this was a TV show where we'd get the next episode in a week, these reveals would feel a lot better. But as soon as the Jailer and Arbiter's models were shown a year ago, I made this connection (as did many others).

You know, Blizzard would never do it because god FORBID they have a "cis" romance front and center, but I'd heard one person theorize a while back, "what if the Jailer and the Arbiter were lovers, but something caused a rift between the two, and sent the Jailer down a dark path?".

For example, maybe the Jailer realized that so long as there was a "cycle of life and death", both he and the Arbiter would always have duties that kept them apart, so he sought to unmake the cycle so he could be with her. Or perhaps he had some revelation that even as the Arbiter, she too would "die" one day, and he was driven to madness in pursuing some way of rescuing her from some inevitable fate.

I never once believe it to be true, but it was honestly a really cool idea. Like, even these larger-than-life, immortal being having "human" flaws and struggles. I think that's a big reason Greek mythology remains so interesting to this day.

I think WoW forgets just how important CHARACTERS are to the story. It's why I was always so frustrated with Y'rel in WoD, because I thought she had potential, but they just "leveled-up" her character way too quickly, because they were more interested in having that "Joan of Arc" character they'd originally advertised, more than having a gradual, coherent growth of her character.

[mysticx]

i know this is a story about ppl hating redemption arcs, sylvanas, tyrande, soon anduin.
but i would like to see zovaal redeemed
i mean when you think about it zovaal hasnt really killed anyone

Yeah, he just ground countless souls into nothingness, and warped others beyond recognition to make his armies, totally the sort of things nice people do...

[masterjc]

so
Jailer was first Arbiter as expected
and arbiter was a construct.
so after disabling Arbiter. all souls flow to Maw. it now makes a sense. as Jailer was one who originally sorted them. and since his essence is disabled all go to closest being who was made to sort them. and it explains why souls do not stay in oribos or go randomly to any other place


now I wonder what sort of energy was red light that stuck Arbiter. and if same power will be needed to disable/kill Jailer.
as arbiter was carrying his essence. this red stuff can potentially be some sort of Kryptonite for Chained Guy

if it really was spirit of Argus, how and why did he got there? in shadowlands and where do we get another titan to kill for same effect on Zorvaal?

[pacotaco]

Less to do with Blizzard and more with people's innate tendency to apply gender to many different things.

And really, a feminine variant of those elementals would literally be a floating pair of tits, hardly an improvement.

It's not only tha they gender everything, it that they also do it with human sexual dimorphism, where males are bigger and stronger, and females are more fragile and dexterous.
We have very few exceptions to that rule in game that come to mind: Ardenweald plant people, butterfly faes, arakoa and sethrak have almost to none sexual dimorphism.
We have no reverse in which female is the bulky physical one, and the males are the fragile type.

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so
Jailer was first Arbiter as expected
and arbiter was a construct.
so after disabling Arbiter. all souls flow to Maw. it now makes a sense. as Jailer was one who originally sorted them. and since his essence is disabled all go to closest being who was made to sort them. and it explains why souls do not stay in oribos or go randomly to any other place


now I wonder what sort of energy was red light that stuck Arbiter. and if same power will be needed to disable/kill Jailer.
as arbiter was carrying his essence. this red stuff can potentially be some sort of Kryptonite for Chained Guy

if it really was spirit of Argus, how and why did he got there? in shadowlands and where do we get another titan to kill for same effect on Zorvaal?

Judging by the time (Ysera was one of the latest souls to arrive before the drought), yeah, the red thingy was probably Argus soul. About why it ended going to the SL instead of the Plane of Order, probably the Nathrezim did something to Argus? I doubt that Sargeras came with the idea of using him to restore faster the souls of the demons in the Nether. And knowing their true origin and purpose, it probably was their idea.

[scrappybristol]

Man, the community will be very upset when Sylvanas becomes the new Arbiter.

[Ehrenpanzer]

Man, the community will be very upset when Sylvanas becomes the new Arbiter.

Still a better option then some ways they could "write" her end arc....