So... Sylvanas is Gul'dan

[Skirdus]

No, seriously. Hear me out:

• Both rose to become leaders of the Horde via their own secretive influence. With Gul'dan, it was the creation of the Shadow Council and utilizing Blackhand as his puppet figurehead. With Sylvanas, it was the Jailer having Mueh'zala whisper to Vol'jin on his deathbed.
• Both massacred countless members of both the Alliance and the Horde (even going so far as to kill children and infants) in order to fuel the power of their dark masters, those being Kil'jaeden / Sargeras and the Jailer respectively.
• Both held no true loyalty to the Horde, and only sought to further their own agenda regarding themselves and their own fate. Even those closest to them and those within their inner circle were ultimately expendable.
• Both faithfully served said masters up until the point at which the relationship was no longer beneficial to them, where they then betrayed said masters and were punished as a result. With Gul'dan, he split from the Horde and tried going after the Tomb of Sargeras, to which he was torn apart by demons. With Sylvanas, she betrayed the Jailer after figuring out he was just like the Lich King, and subsequently was forcefully reunited with her soul before being left to the mercy of the heroes.

With those similarities being drawn... Why the hell are we even considering giving Sylvanas a shred of mercy, when we would never do the same for someone like Gul'dan?

[minteK917]

With those similarities being drawn... Why the hell are we even considering giving Sylvanas a shred of mercy, when we would never do the same for someone like Gul'dan?

Large boobas

[Venziir]

No, seriously. Hear me out:

• Both rose to become leaders of the Horde via their own secretive influence. With Gul'dan, it was the creation of the Shadow Council and utilizing Blackhand as his puppet figurehead. With Sylvanas, it was the Jailer having Mueh'zala whisper to Vol'jin on his deathbed.
• Both massacred countless members of both the Alliance and the Horde (even going so far as to kill children and infants) in order to fuel the power of their dark masters, those being Kil'jaeden / Sargeras and the Jailer respectively.
• Both held no true loyalty to the Horde, and only sought to further their own agenda regarding themselves and their own fate. Even those closest to them and those within their inner circle were ultimately expendable.
• Both faithfully served said masters up until the point at which the relationship was no longer beneficial to them, where they then betrayed said masters and were punished as a result. With Gul'dan, he split from the Horde and tried going after the Tomb of Sargeras, to which he was torn apart by demons. With Sylvanas, she betrayed the Jailer after figuring out he was just like the Lich King, and subsequently was forcefully reunited with her soul before being left to the mercy of the heroes.

With those similarities being drawn... Why the hell are we even considering giving Sylvanas a shred of mercy, when we would never do the same for someone like Gul'dan?

I'll qoute your own text: "With Sylvanas, she betrayed the Jailer after figuring out he was just like the Lich King, and subsequently was forcefully reunited with her soul before being left to the mercy of the heroes.".

Now, we don't know if she'll be spared, have a redemption arc or someting along those lines (she most likely will though). The difference here though, seems to be, that due to her soul being split, she didn't know what she was doing, she was being manipulated and lied to and blablabla.

Where as Gul'dan always knew what he was doing, and why he was doing it. No one was fooling or manipulating him. He did it all knowingly and willingly, where as Sylvanas - apparently/supposedly did not.

Is this good writing? Nope. Do we know if this is how it will pan out? Not yet. Is it very likely, that Sylvanas will, yet again, be a Kerrigan clone? Oh yes very much so, since that's what's she's been since Warcraft 3.

[StillMcfuu]

No, seriously. Hear me out:

• Both rose to become leaders of the Horde via their own secretive influence. With Gul'dan, it was the creation of the Shadow Council and utilizing Blackhand as his puppet figurehead. With Sylvanas, it was the Jailer having Mueh'zala whisper to Vol'jin on his deathbed.
• Both massacred countless members of both the Alliance and the Horde (even going so far as to kill children and infants) in order to fuel the power of their dark masters, those being Kil'jaeden / Sargeras and the Jailer respectively.
• Both held no true loyalty to the Horde, and only sought to further their own agenda regarding themselves and their own fate. Even those closest to them and those within their inner circle were ultimately expendable.
• Both faithfully served said masters up until the point at which the relationship was no longer beneficial to them, where they then betrayed said masters and were punished as a result. With Gul'dan, he split from the Horde and tried going after the Tomb of Sargeras, to which he was torn apart by demons. With Sylvanas, she betrayed the Jailer after figuring out he was just like the Lich King, and subsequently was forcefully reunited with her soul before being left to the mercy of the heroes.

With those similarities being drawn... Why the hell are we even considering giving Sylvanas a shred of mercy, when we would never do the same for someone like Gul'dan?

I think you are mixing together the 2 lore lines for Gildan.

MU Gul'dan was a respected shaman and second to Nerzhul. Gul'dan found out about Nerzhul being tricked by KJ and informed Nerzhul while also telling KJ that Nerzhul knew the real him (KJ was posing as Nerzhul's dead wife iirc). KJ extended the same deal for power to Gul'dan who tricked the Horde into drinking fel blood. Blackhand became warchief, but guldan founded the shadowcouncil to guide Blackhand and the Horde in his preferred direction.

The AU Guldan didn't have that much success, Garrosh basically put the kibosh on the shadowcouncil when he showed up in AU Dreanor, and the "horde" there didn't really exist.

AU Guldan never succeeded in uniting the horde and the Shadowcouncil's purpose was to somehow open the way for the Legion to Dreanor.

MU Guldan did succeed in creating the Horde and the shadowcouncil was created to assert secret control over the Horde and to liason with Medivh to get the Horde to Azeroth.

They've retconned a bit of MU Guldan but from what I can tell his successes and failures are the same after his backstories change.

[Aucald]

Sylvanas deserves no mercy either way, but her story may have some mitigating circumstances that Gul'dan largely lacks. If the "splitting" of Sylvanas' soul caused her behavior seen in WoW, that would at least explain her behavior to a degree. Gul'dan, by contrast, is just a sociopathic monster who has no mitigating circumstances and did what he did out of pure and undiluted lust for personal power. In that sense, you could argue Gul'dan's motives are purer than those of Sylvanas, as no real outside force acted upon him to enable his later crimes. They're both complete monsters now, however; regardless of the circumstances behind them.

[hydrium]

Now, we don't know if she'll be spared, have a redemption arc or someting along those lines

She's a mary sue, Blizzard's darling and Blizzard exclusively employs shitty writers now.

She's 100% getting a poorly written redemption arc and falling back into place in the horde with no one raising so much as an objection.

[Feanoro]

With those similarities being drawn... Why the hell are we even considering giving Sylvanas a shred of mercy, when we would never do the same for someone like Gul'dan?

We have absolutely no say in the matter. Mercy and redemption are coming because Danuser:

1) Lacks an iota of creativity and is aping the Kerrigan story
2) Is a creepy fanboy lusting for undead elf boobs

Also, the Dark Lords of Mar'Keting don't want to lose sales of t-shirts and body pillows.

[Kreepshow]

Large boobas

This guy gets it

[slime]

Not even close. Gul'dan has 2 colors for his mount.

[Giannis-GR]

Large boobas

/thread

It’s because she looks “cute” and a big portion of wow base has some wierd fantasy about her.. including Danuser...

So they figured out to do the redemption story where she says sorry after butchering a couple hundred thousands innocent civilians

And we all live happily ever after

[Soikona]

/thread

It’s because she looks “cute” and a big portion of wow base has some wierd fantasy about her.. including Danuser...

So they figured out to do the redemption story where she says sorry after butchering a couple hundred thousands innocent civilians

And we all live happily ever after

Don’t forget about returning her soul that means she is mortal now. Is this Dausers way of attempting to bring her back to “life” so that people will stop calling him a necrophile?

[Hctaz]

I think you are mixing together the 2 lore lines for Gildan.

MU Gul'dan was a respected shaman and second to Nerzhul. Gul'dan found out about Nerzhul being tricked by KJ and informed Nerzhul while also telling KJ that Nerzhul knew the real him (KJ was posing as Nerzhul's dead wife iirc). KJ extended the same deal for power to Gul'dan who tricked the Horde into drinking fel blood. Blackhand became warchief, but guldan founded the shadowcouncil to guide Blackhand and the Horde in his preferred direction.

They've retconned a bit of MU Guldan but from what I can tell his successes and failures are the same after his backstories change.

Yeah so no they retconned the shit out of MU Guldan... Sadly... The official story for both versions of Gul'dan is his warbringers backstory. He was a cripple, and became a warlock when the Elements said "F U" at the Throne of the Elements. He now always was working for Kiljaeden and always knew Nerzhul was a pawn.

I liked his pre-retcon story significantly better where he was just a guy who had mad ambition and betrayed everybody, thing, and way of life he had ever known in order to satiate his lust for power.

Now he's basically just Randall from Recess. Little weird rat looking kid not good at anything who gets his kicks being the teacher's pet.

[Houle]

Yeah so no they retconned the shit out of MU Guldan... Sadly... The official story for both versions of Gul'dan is his warbringers backstory. He was a cripple, and became a warlock when the Elements said "F U" at the Throne of the Elements. He now always was working for Kiljaeden and always knew Nerzhul was a pawn.

I liked his pre-retcon story significantly better where he was just a guy who had mad ambition and betrayed everybody, thing, and way of life he had ever known in order to satiate his lust for power.

Now he's basically just Randall from Recess. Little weird rat looking kid not good at anything who gets his kicks being the teacher's pet.

this is true. chroincles changed MU gul'dans lore pretty drastically, and not for the better.
MU gul'dan went through the same thing AU gul'dan did with his village. after that, he was the first orc to be contacted by kil'jaeden. but bc kil'jaeden needed a respected and well-known orc, which gul'dan wasn't, he sent gul'dan to the shadowmoon.

there, gul'dan lied that his village and clan was wiped out by ogres. the shadowmoon and ner'zhul pitied him, and took him in. he knew the entire time that kil'jaeden was gonna contact and manipulate ner'zhul, and when ner'zhul found out about it, gul'dan was finally set up as the unofficial leader.
the whole "he told kil'jaeden ner'zhul found out and was then brought into the plan" thing was retconned.

all in all, this is pretty worse, bc it undermines just how much of a shithead gul'dan was. in the new lore, he was a mistreated runt who had nothing, and therefore turned to the legion. in the OG lore he was a talented shaman second only to ner'zhul, who turned to the legion just bc he couldnt get enough.

interestingly, his original lore was pretty much copied to archimonde. archi was a good-looking, powerful eredar, apprentice to their most powerful sorcerer (thal'kiel), and then later even a leader of their entire race. he betrayed thal'kiel to gain more power and become one of the eredars leaders, and he was the first to join the legion, to gain even more power solely for himself.
and even then, his personal goal in WC3 was to drain the well of eternity, so he could gain power comparable to sargeras.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Sylvanas deserves no mercy either way, but her story may have some mitigating circumstances that Gul'dan largely lacks. If the "splitting" of Sylvanas' soul caused her behavior seen in WoW, that would at least explain her behavior to a degree. Gul'dan, by contrast, is just a sociopathic monster who has no mitigating circumstances and did what he did out of pure and undiluted lust for personal power. In that sense, you could argue Gul'dan's motives are purer than those of Sylvanas, as no real outside force acted upon him to enable his later crimes. They're both complete monsters now, however; regardless of the circumstances behind them.

I think Gul'dan's apparent trauma (i.e.: raised as an outcast, bitter because of his crippling ailment) is much more sympathetic than Sylvanas' situation. Gul'dan's entire life was painful for him and when he finally reaches the Throne of the Elements when seeking relief, they reject him and leave him to the Legion. Gul'dan had the choice to die a painful death alone or serve the Legion. Sylvanas, by contrast, had the agency to make decisions after her freedom from Ner'zhul, and she actively chose to make evil ones; she was not forced to take evil actions nor was she was not molded by some external force, even after making her deal with the Jailer her free will was still her own. I might be in the minority when I say that I don't consider the splitting of someone's soul as absolution for them, they're still lucid and in control, so if they choose to make evil choices regardless than that is entirely on them.

[sighy]

I think Gul'dan's apparent trauma (i.e.: raised as an outcast, bitter because of his crippling ailment) is much more sympathetic than Sylvanas' situation. Gul'dan's entire life was painful for him and when he finally reaches the Throne of the Elements when seeking relief, they reject him and leave him to the Legion. Gul'dan had the choice to die a painful death alone or serve the Legion. Sylvanas, by contrast, had the agency to make decisions after her freedom from Ner'zhul, and she actively chose to make evil ones; she was not forced to take evil actions nor was she was not molded by some external force, even after making her deal with the Jailer her free will was still her own. I might be in the minority when I say that I don't consider the splitting of someone's soul as absolution for them, they're still lucid and in control, so if they choose to make evil choices regardless than that is entirely on them.

In Warcraft the removal of soul is directly described as a removal of inhibitions. Pity, mercy, remorse, regret, etc. So if a soulless character sees something that they think needs to be done they won't even stop to consider something like morality. So it could be argued this has been exploited by the Jailer, who presented "An unjust broken system that needs to be dismantled!" kind of omitting the fact that he is the bloody problem to begin with.(This is wildly inconsistent with Sylvanas's 20 year tenure, even as recently as the Tyrande Ardenweald cat fight, altho there have been instances where close personal bonds have brought positive emotions forth, in soulless characters other than herself)

Whereas Gul'dan was a pathetic outcast, who joined the legion out of spite and hunger for power he never had, until then. Difference is that Gul'dan was always a villain and written as such, even if they tweaked his motives he remained largely consistent from start to end. Unlike Sylvanas since start of BfA, where the writing leaves you questioning, if the writers are mentally ill.

[Varodoc]

Sure, they'd be comparable if Gul'dan looked like this:



I guarantee to you that if Gul'dan looked like this then he wouldn't have died to Illidan. Gul'dana or Gul'diana or Gul'daniela or whatever she'd be called would simply be brought to Dalaran for interrogations on what Kil'jaeden's next move would be.

[MikeBogina]

Gul'dan seeked power and betrayed his people.
Sylvanas died trying to save her people.
Gul'dan gladly killed draenei and had his people invade another world to kill.
Sylvanas against her will was used to kill innocents and grieved for her people.
Gul'dan betrayed his master out of greed and was punished.
Sylvanas was liberated from her's and rallied other's against him. Fighting him one on one and later taking her life.
AU Gul'dan didn't betray his master until he got the power and when given the chance to rejoin, did out of fear of taking on all of Azeroth.
Sylvanas was convinced her fate was the maw and accepted a deal by someone promising to keep her from it.
Gul'dan was promised power and happily killed others to achieve it.
Sylvanas was promised everyone would be free of the cycle of death and killed believing the ends justified the means.
Gul'dan died fighting beside his master, smacked with a heaping helping of karma(disenchanted).
Sylvanas won fighting beside her master and jumped to the losing team thanks to some heavily foreshadowed morality/redemption.

Gul'dan is evil and did evil things. He is one of the few rare villains in Warcraft that is actually evil and is doing evil things for no other reason that he's evil.
Sylvanas was a hero who was turned into a villain against her will. Who then did evil things with good intentions, believing the "ends " justify the means" also she lucked out by siding with another one of the few rare villains of warcraft... Zovaal, who like Gul'dan is just evil and didn't have good intentions.

If you want to compare someone to Sylvanas, it's Illidan. She's literally at the Black Temple of his Story arc, and now we're going to be told that she wasn't evil, like we were told Illidan wasn't in Legion. Bonus points if like Xera telling us, it's Elune telling us.

[Krowth]

No way, Gul'dan was actually entertaining and his motives didn't change with every expansion.

[Coolascancer]

We have absolutely no say in the matter. Mercy and redemption are coming because Danuser:

Also, the Dark Lords of Mar'Keting don't want to lose sales of t-shirts and body pillows.

this made me laugh, and is true.

as for sylDanas being guldan- yeah probably. a lot of the world works on the GED (good enough degree) principle meaning that it doesnt matter if i write two stories that are the exact same, "its good enough, ship it. whatever. fuck you." *rubs nipples*

[Knight Meta]

With those similarities being drawn... Why the hell are we even considering giving Sylvanas a shred of mercy, when we would never do the same for someone like Gul'dan?

Despite some of the similarities - I think it boils down to that:

We would show Gul'dan no mercy because he was a massive POS - As a characte in this world. And the writers agreed.

VS

We would show Sylvanas no mercy because she is a massive POS - As a character in this world AND in the way shes poorly written. But the writers does not agree because attractive "badass" Elf earns more bank than Spellcasting-mini Hulk.

It's at a point now where it has become crystal clear that WE want to show her no mercy, but the writers do.