FFXIV Spoiler thread

[Lane]

ShB spoilers/EW speculation. Hydaelyn rant. :P

Spoiler: 

I don't see how Hydaelyn isn't the villain even though I'll be surprised if the writers make her one. I suspect it'll be morally ambiguous at best since many like the idea of Hydaelyn being good and wouldn't be receptive to the WoL being a champion of wrongdoing at the least.

So many are hung up on genocide that I don't see much thought given to what a devastating act the sundering was. While we've yet to be given context as to how many Ancients were against the resummoning of Zodiark beyond "no small number" from the "Ere Our Curtain Falls" short story, even if we generously say 50% I cannot believe that they would have been on board with summoning Hydaelyn had they known the result. It's also why I get frustrated with people saying the Ancients ruined their world. This is solely on the shoulders of Venat and her followers, especially so as Hydaelyn was specifically given the ability to enervate her foes. A minority of Ancients effed it up for all living beings, not just themselves.

The question is also was this a "Minority Report" situation where Hydaelyn is summoned to stop Zodiark before he's even done anything? Because that's also awful. She would've had to have stopped him in the act to be even remotely justified and, even then, I'd strongly disagree. Fact of the matter is, whatever life was going to be sacrificed to him the third time pales in comparison to the life lost in rejoinings and calamaties.

I'm trying not to overthink EW too much, but with the information given in ShB I will be extremely disappointed if Hydaelyn isn't condemned. Given the JRPG penchant of making deities evil I've always been skeptical of her. Emet and Mitron make what happened sound absolutely horrific and I sincerely hope that's shown.

Anyway, the best solution I can think of is figuring out a way when sundered souls die on other shards they're transferred to the Source. This would eventually lead to everyone being whole again without obliterating the other shards and it would take longer than the WoL's lifespan to happen. It also presents the possibility that a civilization similar to the Ancients could be re-created some day. I think that's a good ending for that aspect of the story aside from the unsundered not being around to see it.

[Thestrawman]

ShB spoilers/EW speculation. Hydaelyn rant. :P

Spoiler: 

I don't see how Hydaelyn isn't the villain even though I'll be surprised if the writers make her one. I suspect it'll be morally ambiguous at best since many like the idea of Hydaelyn being good and wouldn't be receptive to the WoL being a champion of wrongdoing at the least.

So many are hung up on genocide that I don't see much thought given to what a devastating act the sundering was. While we've yet to be given context as to how many Ancients were against the resummoning of Zodiark beyond "no small number" from the "Ere Our Curtain Falls" short story, even if we generously say 50% I cannot believe that they would have been on board with summoning Hydaelyn had they known the result. It's also why I get frustrated with people saying the Ancients ruined their world. This is solely on the shoulders of Venat and her followers, especially so as Hydaelyn was specifically given the ability to enervate her foes. A minority of Ancients effed it up for all living beings, not just themselves.

The question is also was this a "Minority Report" situation where Hydaelyn is summoned to stop Zodiark before he's even done anything? Because that's also awful. She would've had to have stopped him in the act to be even remotely justified and, even then, I'd strongly disagree. Fact of the matter is, whatever life was going to be sacrificed to him the third time pales in comparison to the life lost in rejoinings and calamaties.

I'm trying not to overthink EW too much, but with the information given in ShB I will be extremely disappointed if Hydaelyn isn't condemned. Given the JRPG penchant of making deities evil I've always been skeptical of her. Emet and Mitron make what happened sound absolutely horrific and I sincerely hope that's shown.

Anyway, the best solution I can think of is figuring out a way when sundered souls die on other shards they're transferred to the Source. This would eventually lead to everyone being whole again without obliterating the other shards and it would take longer than the WoL's lifespan to happen. It also presents the possibility that a civilization similar to the Ancients could be re-created some day. I think that's a good ending for that aspect of the story aside from the unsundered not being around to see it.

Can I get a tl;dr because I've read you're stream of consciousness like four times and have yet to find a point?

[ippollite]

Yay! I was right. I mean, well, lets say 80% right. Im not one of the three. But i am one of the originals. I love it when you do math, make a mistake in the working out, then accidentally make a second mistake and stumble on the correct answer. The cutscene in the writ office on the chair with er... hang on... Hythlodaeus was a massive drop, but it was here that particularly got me.

[video=youtube_share;M7_2Lce6zXA]https://youtu.be/M7_2Lce6zXA?t=934[/video]

Because, and i had to confirm, the gender changes according to the player character. Which makes it absolutely certain he's talking about me. AND that im close to Emet and likely the other 12. Which brings me back to them dwelling on the word 'remember?' as a chosen response by you (i would have brushed over it and completely assumed he meant that i would remember because i wasnt alive then... but then the game made me stop and dwell on it). If that wasnt enough, once you beat Amaurot and hit the cutscene... and all the stuff happens... there you are... to Emet's complete disbelief (which im gonna assume is genuine). And now that makes me wonder about the crystal exarch whom emet also showed particular interest in that ladder cut scene. Because my belief then was that he was one of the survivors. But there's two candidates for the spot as an AI attaining self realisation. Well, 3. Maybe Krile. Either a pragmatic elidibus. Or the exarch. Or emet selch himself. But i dont think emet would make a reflection of himself (since its SUPPOSED to just be a locked moment in time not some 'what if' AI universe - though why he didnt just do that and live in his own little matrix. It might have helped with his guilt and evident grief).

Pulling back to the warring triad stuff and why my mind went on a rant a while back about balance. I also see now what Elidibus is about. Zodiark keeps halving the population for some perk. The next step (before hydaelyn) was to ask for their former friends back from the initial sacrifice. What to sacrifice? Why another half. And everyone knows you cant keep multiplying fractions. And Emet even told us that Hydaelyn's point to weaken you by doubling you indefinitely. So we have this force that always needs feeding. And one that always needs to expand. Thus whereas Emet wants actual oblivion (the cost of zodiark), and hydealyn wants constant expansion of the light, elidibus seems to want to cut his losses and just find stasis (which needs zodiark)? Im not sure then where Lahabrea falls into this? Chaos for its own sake? Or he was a true believer like Emet and perhaps there isnt some cosmic balancing act at all(between chaos and order)

Oooh, and then theres the dude you have to bother about the debate competition. His whole opening gambit (not in the actual debate itself, but as youre tugging at his cloak to get him to pay attention to you is a fantastic little statement on your right to exist - you see Rich GENOCIDE Campbell! They all weren't on board. Then you get to go Alphi call back which was lovely. Yadayadayada, indolence.
Final one that was fascinating: The dude talking about conceptualising jelly fish. I dont know why, but my brain decided he was talking about sin eaters. these.... have been creating all the monsters in the universe. Which stands to reason because they keep teaching people to summon/conceptualise primals.

Anyways, so many scattered points. Still havent done the final fight. So er, no spoilers. But i LOVED that zone and the gigantic lore dump you got from it. I guess i should do it so i can drink my wine again and misremember everything that happens in 5.1

[Drindorai]

I mean if people still think the story is simply saying, "Hydaelyn = Good and Zodiark = bad," then they just were asleep for most of Shadowbringers.

Zodiark and Hydaelyn are pretty tragic honestly because they're just living wills manifested to do a thing that their creators wanted. He just needs a power source to actually perform miracles on that scale. And it's a miracle his folloers wanted, not one Zodiark demanded. The difference at this point, these millennia later, is that (As Alphinaud and Y'shtola both point out to Emet), that enacting what the Ascians want to do is tantamount to murdering billions of people. And while Hydaelyn is obviously at fault for splitting everything into shards, in the current time her (albeit very dwindingly) power is about preventing that.

Zodiark wasn't even the one demanding that his followers enact the plan to sacrifice half of the remaining post-apocalypse survivors. That was something his followers wanted to do to bring everyone back. I always found it interesting because in a lot of Final Fantasy games, deities often have clear agendas and are actively trying to manipulate what is going on, but in FF14, Zodiark and Hydaelyn are simply following the agenda that they were created with at their existence. That isn't to say that Hydaelyn, for example, doesn't actively try to intervene in conflicts, but she's doing it out of an overriding will she was created with. It's a small distinction but one that matters.

Someone mentioned moral relativism earlier and I think that applies in this case as well. Sure, if everything was rejoined, it's possible (Although the fact that ancient Amaurotian society still ended up disagreeing during a time of crisis makes me doubt for sure if this is really possible) that all war and conflict would end, it still ultimately would require the the deaths of quite literally nearly every single living being across all existences.

So what is the right answer? There isn't one. That's the point. Completing the rejoinings is out of the question due to the obvious reasons. But mortals are frail creatures that will continue to war and kill. It sucks and there's no good answer. That's life. All you can do is try to find ways to coexist peacefully, which is, again, something the Scions try to argue to Emet-Selch at the end of 5.0, and something we actually begin to see come to fruition in 5.4+.

The fact that there isn't a good answer to solve every groups' problem is something that I like. Because it's actually realistic.

[ippollite]

Which is why the warring triad stuff if fascinating (especially in conjunction with that debate club side story). I cant quite tease it all out and situate people and places. But if we take the initial debate:
1. The search for perfection is idealistic and wrong. And denies the rights of the imperfect to exist. (imperfection is fine).
2. We must always strive for the perfect, anything less is wrong (though no one says this, but its the antithesis).
and then add in the second debate:
3. We should intervene to help others.
4. To intervene is an act of power (and likely hubris).

My wol obviously chose 1 and 3 (because im philosophically flawed). The dude making the first point also made the 4, whilst emet selch could be viewed as 2 and 3. Two and four is... problematic i suppose. Egads, its so hard to parse it out. But i guess that puts elidibus in the 2 and 3 camp as well... but is caught between the two forces.

Though, as you say, theyre not really forces. And maybe no sacrifice was ever required and it was all just a broken concept that got out of hand. So too with hydaelyn. They added in a quality that turned it into a lion with wings or a sentient echo delivering exposition. Which means that quest to learn about concepts also had a little lesson in it beyond teaching you about the background of their society. Man, every single thing in that one zone is hugely impactful.

Dammit, i have to go do this stupid trial and get it out of the way. Im so dreading it. I watched the 'guide' and as a pretty terrible headless chicken whitemage, it's just... a lot.

ETA: Maybe elidibus is 1 and 3 as well (or 2 and 4 - the nihilist opposition)? But like the interlocutor who agrees with my policy on intervention and does so on completely different grounds (intervention creates advantage - which really sounds like a call back to the nanamo story when godbert tells her to stop being naive). Elidibus wants perfection, but knows its impossible because the concepts are flawed, so just settles for imperfection and intervention in the cause of balance.
Oooh, and if 1 and 4 is Eulmore (imperfect is fine, eff off and let me enjoy nihilism). And 2 and 4 is Ishgard (we want perfection, we'd love to help but we have dragons of our own), uldah is 2 and 3 (the ferengi and/or ilidan principle - intervention is fine, we can make a profit off them, and we can teach them to get stronger), then 1 and 3 is gridania (Im a hippy and im going to make you take your medicine even if it chokes you! though obviously, being an idealist im also in the twin adders) (okay, this is a reach, but its fun to think meta). {:

[Lane]

I don't like the perfection argument. This isn't about people having flaws, it's about souls being split asunder. It's more like saying that a hand with all its fingers cut off is fine, and each individual finger is fine, but it's obviously not the ideal for either hand or fingers.

Someone mentioned moral relativism earlier and I think that applies in this case as well. Sure, if everything was rejoined, it's possible (Although the fact that ancient Amaurotian society still ended up diagreeing during a time of crisis makes me doubt for sure if this is really possible) that all war and conflict would end, it still ultimately would require the the deaths of quite literally nearly every single living being across all existences.

I suspect the disagreement was because the life they were wanting to sacrifice the third time wasn't going to be consensual. I do wonder about the specifics though.

[ippollite]

But imagine a hand with digits that can explode into thousands of nodes making every typing action 1000 times faster... imagine having every thought on this massageboard virtually immediate! Isnt it amazing!

Whaddayamean someone else has to parse this? Whaddayamean every thought you have isnt nessarily driven by the most purest of instincts?
Whaddaya mean that reason is second order? Perhaps emet was right...

This queue can suck a dick.

eta: "Excuse me, youre the warrior of darkness?"

I dont know how to process this. Instead i'll just deviate from my wry in-game avatar, and cry. Welcome to 5.1, i suppose.

[Drindorai]

I suspect the disagreement was because the life they were wanting to sacrifice the third time wasn't going to be consensual. I do wonder about the specifics though.

Oh yes, of course. My point was that Emet-Selch's insistence that the full rejoining would create perfection once again, but we know that even the Amaurotians weren't all in agreement on everything. And the fact that they crumbled and disagreed beneath a decision after an apocalypse shows that. That even the ancient world wasn't 'perfect.' At least not truly perfect.

I assume we'll find out about even more disagreements with characters like Lahabrea with his appearance in the Pandaemonium raid, who it already seemed like Emet-Selch was a bit weird about for some reason.

Also as someone else was mentioning, I too have been watching Rich Campbell's streams and normally I'd chalk it up to just being a troll, but the fact that he still insists that just doing the Rejoining had me really confused lol. At this point in the story it seemed clear to me that you understood Emet-Selch's motivations but it's been pointed out about 5 times now that doing so would case the untold genocide for billions or trillions of people and were to arrive at that conclusion by then lol.

I am curious to his reaction to that final cutscene before the Amaurot dungeon where the game just stops pretending to be subtle about it.

[Lane]

Vindication! :P Interview with Yoshi-P, 2021.09.03:

What’s Thancred and Minfilia true feeling for one another? What did Thancred actually say with his silent words?

Q: Things have been really hard for Thancred in SHB, he is constantly worrying about losing his family and the final result is far from great for him. What’s really going on in his mind?

Y: Thancred true feeling toward Minfilia is obviously not seeing her as a sister, but if that’s what Minfilia wanted, then no matter how much it pains him, he will respect it. However, it would be a lie to say Thancred hasn’t thought of the possibility of getting together with her. He constantly trying to reject himself from having these thoughts by always addressing her as "my sister". On the other hand, Minfilia believed that it was her mission and role to bring the light and people to posterity, her personal feelings and her own very life are something that she has to set aside. She thinks if Ryne could follow the journey with WoL and the others under her own will, then Ryne will be able to follow her heart and find her own happiness. That’s why when Ryne give Minfilia her response, she said: “You share that self-same hope as me ... That’s more than what I could have ever asked for, I could leave proud and pleased now”.

As hurt as Thancred is about Manfilia's passing, he knows he gets to have a few more moments with Manfilia before her departure, hence Thancred had little regrets. The same could not be said for F'lhaminn (Manfilia adopted mum). That’s why in my head, Thancred would not spare any details, he will tell F'lhaminn everything about Manfilia and her deed in the First. After his battle with Ranjit, Thancred was lying on the ground and you can see he was expressing all his feelings as Manfilia parted, I was very particular about that scene, I made sure the last scene he was lip-syncing when he made a silent voice with no subtitle. (To allow people to guess what he said)

Q: So, what did Thancred actually say in that scene?

Y: I won’t say it. But I can tell you it is something I will never want to hear from you (the interviewer) saying it (Laugh).

[ippollite]

Oh no. Its not a calculus/formulae. Its a flawed concept pushed to its reductio ad absurdum. You had the absolute right of it. Its a lion with wings.

ETA: I watched minfilia be blasted like a month ago watching arthars stream. That ever one of the scions were there after amaurot makes me... conflicted. I thought i knew what was coming. I know its still coming (because the game makes me identify with her), and now i know i have 3 more patches before the actual result happens (one life for one world - that scene where urianger gathers us in heavensward). I havent forgotten. Its coming. Im genuinely happy to see them all up and healthy after the amaurot end scene. But its in the back of my mind.

[Drindorai]

It 100% reads like, "Oh perhaps at the very beginning maybe? But then she wanted to find her own path and saw Thancred as a family member, so it's over."

I will say this thread is literally the first time among probably over 10 people I personally know at this point who ever saw the relationship between the two as anything but familial. Even across the internet, this thread was the first time I've seen that lol. Reminds me of people who just have no capacity to understand emotional language of others

[Lane]

I've never shipped Minfilia and Thancred. My only point was ever that he acted like he had unrequited love for her, which Yoshi-P confirmed, and that it made his relationship with Ryne awkward. He fought against her choosing her own destiny and when she did he behaved like he was mourning a lover.

[ippollite]

It 100% reads like, "Oh perhaps at the very beginning maybe? But then she wanted to find her own path and saw Thancred as a family member, so it's over."

I will say this thread is literally the first time among probably over 10 people I personally know at this point who ever saw the relationship between the two as anything but familial. Even across the internet, this thread was the first time I've seen that lol. Reminds me of people who just have no capacity to understand emotional language of others

You explain yourself... 'poorly, perhaps' (im channeling urianger)

Sorry, thoueth explain thineself somewhat recumbent. There, i channeled him.

So im back on the source doing humdrum shit. And ryne and thancred (and everyone else) is still on the first. Im real time drunk reacting again for at least the next 2.5 expansions.

[Drindorai]

You explain yourself... 'poorly, perhaps' (im channeling urianger)

Sorry, thoueth explain thineself somewhat recumberant. There, i channeled him.

I feel like more it's something you actively want to be looking for in order to see it. But I guess it is what it is. Disappointing that he'd throw that out in an interview when it never felt like that way to me in the entire story. Reminds me of like a WoW story dev interview moment. Where you see a developer say something out of game and then go, "...what?"

[ippollite]

Perhaps, i realise, this is a 5.5 discussion.

[Drindorai]

Perhaps, i realise, this is a 5.5 discussion.

I would say Shadowbringers especially is a story where it's best to just finish the entire expansion before speculating.

Or at least participating in a spoiler thread about it :P

[ippollite]

NEVAH!!! I love figuring shit out. It makes me happy. Plus, i have a collection of reactions to look back on. Half the fun of a story game is the journey. The other 20% (30% goes to absolute bullshit flights of fancy), is being kinda wrong with every new piece of info. If i didnt have people to scream at and say 'hey dudes! Ive figured it out!' the game would be so much less enjoyable. (:

[Drindorai]

It's not the first time it's come up, it's mentioned in-game at least once, and now there's an interview about it....so maybe we're past the point of acting like people are somehow weird for having thought about it at some point.

No, its very weird. But I cannot deny that it is what apparently what Yoshi-P says. But it is still super weird. But it is what it is. So I'll not belabor the point any longer.

[Lane]

There's a part about Emet in the interview too.

What was Emet-Selch’s true intention?

Q: Throughout the story of SHB, there was a major plotline of WoL defeating the Lightwarden and absorbing their light. It seems it is Emet-Selch’s intention to overflow and disable the WoL with light energy, but then he said he was disappointed when that actually happened? Also, WoL somehow recovered from the overflow of Light attribute in the end? What’s actually happened and what’s Emet-Selch actually planning?

Y: Emet was disappointed because he thinks “true-being” like the Ascian would have no problem suppressing the light attribute of mortal sin eaters, especially if WoL is truly- Azem. “So WoL wasn’t Azem after all” he thinks. I will admit it wasn’t very clear simply because it wasn’t easy to depict. On the other hand, even if WoL isn’t Azem. Emet genuinely wants to see if mankind can handle a union of several mortal souls. If they could, he will re-examine mankind's worth and potential as a “true being”. He was hoping in the process of traveling with mankind side by side he would find other solutions to their situation. He would not make the choice he made in the ending if he thinks there is an alternative way.

As a matter of fact, Emet thought WoL really reminded him of the Azem he knew, regardless he is actually him or not, the WoL is a person he probably secretly admired. He from the bottom of his heart was disappointed by how things turn out.

Q: So why didn’t the WoL turn in to Lightwarden in the end?

Y: With Ardbert surrender his soul to the WoL , WoL becomes 1 step closer to the “true-being”. Thus, granted the strength to temporarily suppressed the outburst. In the following battle, WoL and Hades unleash a lot of opposing power toward each other, one would have to wonder do the two not balance out one and other’s attributes? Could Emet really not come to different conclusions if he gives these series of events another look, knowing the result? Of course, I am not saying he is right or wrong or giving any definitive answer here.

I wish they'd been able to better depict Emet's thoughts/feelings. My main disappointment in ShB is we don't learn how much he cared about Azem until 5.3 when he's no longer around and there was little indication of it in 5.0 without some broad interpretation.

[Xilurm]

-snip-

If the WoL is a Viera this can definitelly happen during their lifetime. Since Vieras can live up to 300 years.

- - - Updated - - -

Because, and i had to confirm, the gender changes according to the player character. Which makes it absolutely certain he's talking about me. AND that im close to Emet and likely the other 12.

Just to clarify, it was a convocation of 14. So it would be the other 13, not 12.