Page 9 of 10 FirstFirst ...
7
8
9
10
LastLast
  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    ShB spoilers/EW speculation. Hydaelyn rant. :P

    Spoiler: 
    I don't see how Hydaelyn isn't the villain even though I'll be surprised if the writers make her one. I suspect it'll be morally ambiguous at best since many like the idea of Hydaelyn being good and wouldn't be receptive to the WoL being a champion of wrongdoing at the least.

    So many are hung up on genocide that I don't see much thought given to what a devastating act the sundering was. While we've yet to be given context as to how many Ancients were against the resummoning of Zodiark beyond "no small number" from the "Ere Our Curtain Falls" short story, even if we generously say 50% I cannot believe that they would have been on board with summoning Hydaelyn had they known the result. It's also why I get frustrated with people saying the Ancients ruined their world. This is solely on the shoulders of Venat and her followers, especially so as Hydaelyn was specifically given the ability to enervate her foes. A minority of Ancients effed it up for all living beings, not just themselves.

    The question is also was this a "Minority Report" situation where Hydaelyn is summoned to stop Zodiark before he's even done anything? Because that's also awful. She would've had to have stopped him in the act to be even remotely justified and, even then, I'd strongly disagree. Fact of the matter is, whatever life was going to be sacrificed to him the third time pales in comparison to the life lost in rejoinings and calamaties.

    I'm trying not to overthink EW too much, but with the information given in ShB I will be extremely disappointed if Hydaelyn isn't condemned. Given the JRPG penchant of making deities evil I've always been skeptical of her. Emet and Mitron make what happened sound absolutely horrific and I sincerely hope that's shown.

    Anyway, the best solution I can think of is figuring out a way when sundered souls die on other shards they're transferred to the Source. This would eventually lead to everyone being whole again without obliterating the other shards and it would take longer than the WoL's lifespan to happen. It also presents the possibility that a civilization similar to the Ancients could be re-created some day. I think that's a good ending for that aspect of the story aside from the unsundered not being around to see it.
    You seem to still be glossing over the fact that Zodiark would have continued to required sacrifices to do the job he was created for, it wasn't a one time thing. Hydaelyns only purpose was to stop Zodiark. She succeeded. And, in the long run, the world was saved and life was able to flourish across all 13 shards until the Ascians came meddling in things and started causing calamities. The calamites are not Hydaelyns fault, they're Zodiarks. Blaming Hydaelyn for all the deaths from the calamities would be like blaming the [insert heroic character here] for choosing not to give into the demands of a terrorist and then the terrorist kills someone.

    They're BOTH bad. And I think that's set up quite nicely. But between the two of them, only one of them continues to advocate for and actively pursue death and destruction. Shadowbringers did a good job setting up the conflict as not so much a good vs evil, but two sides justified in their own right, but also completely at odds with each other.

    And at this point in time, the rejoinings are a MUCH worse thing because every one results in the loss of ALL life on the shard that's destroyed as well as all the loss of life that occurs in the calamity on the Source.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    I found a lot of Ryne's "he hates me!" melodrama to be... not founded in reality. Thancred had bitter feelings but he was never depicted as being a jerk towards Ryne. Felt more like Ryne was a teenager on a moodswing, or overexaggerating to seek attention. Maybe she learned that pouting would cause Urianger to dote on her, give her free stuff and headpats.
    A teenager raised essentially in a dungeon trained and then forced to go fight things like a tool, with no proper friends, parents, etc.... has mood swings and has difficulty reading other people's feelings? Especially those, like Thancred, who apparently have difficulty sharing real feelings with people?

    Say it isn't so....

    Regardless of it's founded in reality or not, this is a hugely overused trope (moody teenager/ emotionally stunted person can't read people and internally decides someone dislikes them and works hard to change that persons perception of them) in every form of media ever, and makes perfect sense in the context of the game.

  2. #162
    The translations I copied & pasted from r/ffxiv should be disregarded. The post was deleted and threads have since popped up about someone from the SE English localization team saying that they were wildly inaccurate on Twitter. I don't do Twitter and when I tried to click on the links they wouldn't appear, so I don't know the whole story.

    Supposedly Anonymoose has some alternate translations that confirm the brother/sister relationship between Thancred and Minfilia, but sadly nothing about the Emet portion. Apologies for posting something that turned out to be misinformation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    You seem to still be glossing over the fact that Zodiark would have continued to required sacrifices to do the job he was created for, it wasn't a one time thing.
    They stopped the Final Days, restored the world, and the last part was bringing back the Ancients who sacrificed themselves to make it happen. While it's possible that they may have sought to re-summon Zodiark again if there were another disaster, I'm left to believe that the third time would've been the last. There wasn't a reason to bring him back after everything was returned to the way it was before the "sound".
    "People with depression score higher on tests of realism. Intelligence is positively correlated with mental illness and suicide. What this indicates is that if the mind understands too much about reality, it wants to destroy itself. Human life is existential horror."

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    They stopped the Final Days, restored the world, and the last part was bringing back the Ancients who sacrificed themselves to make it happen. While it's possible that they may have sought to re-summon Zodiark again if there were another disaster, I'm left to believe that the third time would've been the last. There wasn't a reason to bring him back after everything was returned to the way it was before the "sound".
    Primals require continuous offerings or consumption of aether. They accomplished what they set out to do, true, but he would have still required aether to continue existing.

    Even if they were to "un-summon" him (which I'm not even sure is a thing), there was also no guarantee that without him the Sound would have stayed gone. They still have no idea what caused the sound.

    I don't disagree that what happened at that time with the sundering was horrible, but the rejoinings are worse, since entire worlds have been lost 7 times now. Unless you're like Emet and don't see any of the life that existed as true lives and therefore none of the destruction affected any true "being," which is IMO a horrific take.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    I found a lot of Ryne's "he hates me!" melodrama to be... not founded in reality. Thancred had bitter feelings but he was never depicted as being a jerk towards Ryne. Felt more like Ryne was a teenager on a moodswing, or overexaggerating to seek attention. Maybe she learned that pouting would cause Urianger to dote on her, give her free stuff and headpats.
    To be fair, a lot of this could be handwaved away with stuff that happened offscreen while they traveled before the WoL arrived in the first. Not great storytelling, but she was definitely insecure and who wouldn't be with such a burden thrust upon them. All she saw was someone helping her because of who she reminded him of, out of a weird obligation, not any affection. Not initially at least.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakhath View Post
    To be fair, a lot of this could be handwaved away with stuff that happened offscreen while they traveled before the WoL arrived in the first. Not great storytelling, but she was definitely insecure and who wouldn't be with such a burden thrust upon them. All she saw was someone helping her because of who she reminded him of, out of a weird obligation, not any affection. Not initially at least.
    there are already indications of how he treated her in the game itself and that he couldnt just SPEAK to her how he felt about her being Minfilia's reincarnation but not her. Without anything to fall on, Ryne's poor self esteem was crashing her and becoming worse. Its why the first thing Yshtola does is openly confront him about it right infront of her, because she hates stuff like that as much as she dislikes people keeping secrets.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    I hated thancred. I hated him because he was too distant to minfilia and couldnt once get past his relationship to the source minfilia (and continually judged her as an imperfect minfilia). I expressed this all the way through shadowbringers. I always sided with minfilia. It literally destroyed my trust in thancred.
    I wasn't pleased with the Thancred & Ryne storyline either. He doesn't talk to her at any point despite multiple people pressing him to do so. (Urianger was best dad.) He's too wrapped up in himself and his own emotions to offer Ryne any comfort, that bothered me a lot. I assume the hand on the head thing is a game limitation because that girl needed a hug and no one was giving her one.

    I was glad when she chose her own destiny. I thought she was going to cave at the end and give herself to Minfilia because she felt useless and it would make Thancred happy.

    There's no way she wouldn't have a complex. Everyone only cared about her (initially) because she was the reincarnation of Minfilia. It's why Ran'jit wanted her, it's why Thancred rescued her. No one could have ever lived up to Minfilia either, that much was made clear going all the way back to ARR.

    I also find it interesting that I've seen people make parallels between Thancred's behavior and Ascians', but one isn't considered a villain and the others are.
    "People with depression score higher on tests of realism. Intelligence is positively correlated with mental illness and suicide. What this indicates is that if the mind understands too much about reality, it wants to destroy itself. Human life is existential horror."

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    I also find it interesting that I've seen people make parallels between Thancred's behavior and Ascians', but one isn't considered a villain and the others are.
    Please tell me when Thancred casually killed billions of people to bring back "his" Minfillia. What is with your hard on for the Ascians? Your posts are all about how everyone and everything is just as bad as they are no matter how nonsensical it is.

  8. #168
    Titan Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    14,552
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    I assume the hand on the head thing is a game limitation because that girl needed a hug and no one was giving her one.
    Historically video games struggle to do lots of physical connections like that. Most clothes in games aren't rigged to deform like that so either you get clipping, or the characters have to be awkwardly posed to prevent it, both options usually look bad. Physics on clothes usually bugs out and ruins the moment or requires too much processing power. Only the biggest AAA studios that make movie games like Naughty Dog can afford to have their animators spend so much time on a little detail like that. Similar reason why most swords in games don't have sheathes, and so on.

    There is at least one hug scene off of the top of my head in FFXIV (Scholar 80 quest). FFXIV cutscenes generally have a lot of clipping (not to mention that the animations usually aren't mindblowing. The stiffness is an acquired taste) so it's not like they couldn't have him hug her. And the animators created a second model for the Exarch that is only seen for a couple seconds for the two cutscenes where his hood comes on/off, so the animators could have bent over backwards to make a hug scene look really good if they wanted to. So I doubt technical limitations were at play here; they just wrote it so he gave her a headpat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    I also find it interesting that I've seen people make parallels between Thancred's behavior and Ascians', but one isn't considered a villain and the others are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thestrawman View Post
    Please tell me when Thancred casually killed billions of people to bring back "his" Minfillia. What is with your hard on for the Ascians? Your posts are all about how everyone and everything is just as bad as they are no matter how nonsensical it is.
    Thancred to Ascians isn't comparable. Crystal Exarch to Ascians absolutely is, though. The heroes were hypocrites for lecturing on Emet-Selch about how "destroying a world you don't like to save the one you do like isn't okay!" considering that a few hours before, Urianger told them about the timeline shenagains. G'raha Tia was trying to do the exact same thing: kill the people of the present he came from the resurrect the people of a past that he deemed better than the present. Mind as well just be honest and say "Nothing personal, I'm just going to kill you to save the folks I like more".

    As far as G'raha Tia and the Ironworks knew, they would all cease to exist if they succeeded. The creation of an alternate timeline, rather than simply changing the past, was unexpected. G'raha Tia jumped into the past intending to kill the present he came from in order to bring back the past that he loved. Just as how Emet-Selch intends to kill the present day populace in order to bring back the past people he loved.

    Then again, the heroes have been hypocrites quite a few times throughout the story.
    Last edited by Val the Moofia Boss; Yesterday at 07:15 AM.

    . - - - - - Come play MMO-C mafia with us! / Steam / MyAnimeList - - - - -

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Thancred to Ascians isn't comparable.
    I thought Thancred and Mitron were similar. They both refused to give up on trying to bring back the person they loved.
    "People with depression score higher on tests of realism. Intelligence is positively correlated with mental illness and suicide. What this indicates is that if the mind understands too much about reality, it wants to destroy itself. Human life is existential horror."

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    -snip-
    In theory perhaps but not in practice. At least in my opinion. Also given how bad things went with the 8th calamity G'raha more then likely saved more lives then "killed" by going back and changing history.
    Last edited by Thestrawman; Yesterday at 08:03 AM.

  11. #171
    Am i being dumb again, or is Beq Lugg teaching Alisaie something not akin to the same invocation magic that underlines the idea of 'concepts'? Perhaps im reading too much into it and this is just standard conjuration. Why wouldnt it be? This is a magical fantasy setting. But she did say something when she was calling her pig grotesque. And that bit about how the magic is empowered by her desire and connection (clarity of focus), and that poem for the incantation (i only remember the last two lines): What was once a fantasy, i call into reality. I mean, i dont think its plot significant or anything, but now i understand where magic comes from, i think?
    Last edited by ippollite; Yesterday at 12:20 PM.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I don't disagree that what happened at that time with the sundering was horrible, but the rejoinings are worse, since entire worlds have been lost 7 times now. Unless you're like Emet and don't see any of the life that existed as true lives and therefore none of the destruction affected any true "being," which is IMO a horrific take.
    The issue with all the "non-ancient souls" all being wiped out does throw a wrench into the whole rejoining thing, since they can't even make a case for those people being "saved" or "fixed", they're just lost.

    On the other hand, telling someone, "Look, we killed your spouse and kids but it's ok because their remains fed these 20 monkeys, and those 20 monkeys had more kids, and it's just so many more lives than were lost so it's ok!" probably isn't going to make them feel any better. Nevermind how many monkeys they'd be ok with killing if they found out that their spouse and children weren't really gone and could be saved somehow.

    (Yes, it's really hard to make Sundering/Rejoining analogies!)
    Last edited by Bovinity Divinity; Yesterday at 01:02 PM.

  13. #173
    Which sort of ties into what the exarch did. It genuinely bothers me because im a good deontologist. So i cant just say it was all for a better purpose in the ultimate calculus of happiness/suffering. Rights are trumps. He erased them. And this puts him in my mind closer to emet selch than he thinks or believes.
    Last edited by ippollite; Yesterday at 01:10 PM.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    Which sort of ties into what the exarch did. It genuinely bothers me because im a good deontologist. So i cant just say it was all for a better purpose in the ultimate calculus of happiness/suffering. Rights are trumps. He erased them. And this puts him in my mind closer to emet selch than he thinks or believes.
    What specifically are you talking about that the Exarch did?

    He's done a lot of things, lol.

  15. #175
    Reversed time and evaporated the existence of those on the first born before/after his reversal. I know theyre doomed. But they at least had a life, had joys, desires, goals. Even some of them would have died a natural death. He erased them and their existence (that had actually happened) for a better world. This is exactly how emet thinks.

    Given your question though, im wondering if im mistaken...

    ETA: 'Lost' is a beautiful way to describe them.
    Last edited by ippollite; Yesterday at 02:15 PM.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    What specifically are you talking about that the Exarch did?
    The thing where he assumed that by going back in time and helping us, that his entire timeline would be erased. Effectively wiping himself and the rest of that world out of existence, which they considered to be a good trade since their timeline supposedly sucked that bad. (Even though in the short story about it, they made it seem like everyone was hopeful to carry on after sending the Exarch off.)

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    (Yes, it's really hard to make Sundering/Rejoining analogies!)
    Most people can't relate to the concept of immortality. This is somewhat touched upon in HW where the life of a mortal is compared to that of a fresh cut flower. It's more like saying, you can bring back everything you ever loved but you'll have to destroy 13 colonies of fruit flies to make it happen. The average human being would have no problem with that as 1) they don't consider anything but humans to have value and 2) they couldn't care less about creatures with a 2-week lifespan.
    "People with depression score higher on tests of realism. Intelligence is positively correlated with mental illness and suicide. What this indicates is that if the mind understands too much about reality, it wants to destroy itself. Human life is existential horror."

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    The thing where he assumed that by going back in time and helping us, that his entire timeline would be erased. Effectively wiping himself and the rest of that world out of existence, which they considered to be a good trade since their timeline supposedly sucked that bad. (Even though in the short story about it, they made it seem like everyone was hopeful to carry on after sending the Exarch off.)
    Ah. Yeah the short story firmly establishes that timeline didn't disappear. That's why I was confused. Because that means there's essentialy no trade-off and it's completely win-win for everyone.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    Reversed time and evaporated the existence of those on the first born before/after his reversal. I know theyre doomed. But they at least had a life, had joys, desires, goals. Even some of them would have died a natural death. He erased them and their existence (that had actually happened) for a better world. This is exactly how emet thinks.

    Given your question though, im wondering if im mistaken...

    ETA: 'Lost' is a beautiful way to describe them.
    Not sure if' you've seen it yet or not, but this is the short story Bovinity and I are referring to.

    That timeline wasn't erased.

    https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes.../#sidestory_08

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Ah. Yeah the short story firmly establishes that timeline didn't disappear. That's why I was confused. Because that means there's essentialy no trade-off and it's completely win-win for everyone.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Not sure if' you've seen it yet or not, but this is the short story Bovinity and I are referring to.

    That timeline wasn't erased.

    https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes.../#sidestory_08
    Indeed, but the Exarch fully expected to destroy the timeline.

    It didn't work out that way, but he pressed the big red button to nuke it. Just because the nuke didn't launch doesn't mean that wasn't his intention.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Indeed, but the Exarch fully expected to destroy the timeline.

    It didn't work out that way, but he pressed the big red button to nuke it. Just because the nuke didn't launch doesn't mean that wasn't his intention.
    He didn't know what would happen, though, but you're right in that he went through with it under that assumption.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •