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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    (Yes, it's really hard to make Sundering/Rejoining analogies!)
    Most people can't relate to the concept of immortality. This is somewhat touched upon in HW where the life of a mortal is compared to that of a fresh cut flower. It's more like saying, you can bring back everything you ever loved but you'll have to destroy 13 colonies of fruit flies to make it happen. The average human being would have no problem with that as 1) they don't consider anything but humans to have value and 2) they couldn't care less about creatures with a 2-week lifespan.
    "People with depression score higher on tests of realism. Intelligence is positively correlated with mental illness and suicide. What this indicates is that if the mind understands too much about reality, it wants to destroy itself. Human life is existential horror."

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    The thing where he assumed that by going back in time and helping us, that his entire timeline would be erased. Effectively wiping himself and the rest of that world out of existence, which they considered to be a good trade since their timeline supposedly sucked that bad. (Even though in the short story about it, they made it seem like everyone was hopeful to carry on after sending the Exarch off.)
    Ah. Yeah the short story firmly establishes that timeline didn't disappear. That's why I was confused. Because that means there's essentialy no trade-off and it's completely win-win for everyone.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    Reversed time and evaporated the existence of those on the first born before/after his reversal. I know theyre doomed. But they at least had a life, had joys, desires, goals. Even some of them would have died a natural death. He erased them and their existence (that had actually happened) for a better world. This is exactly how emet thinks.

    Given your question though, im wondering if im mistaken...

    ETA: 'Lost' is a beautiful way to describe them.
    Not sure if' you've seen it yet or not, but this is the short story Bovinity and I are referring to.

    That timeline wasn't erased.

    https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes.../#sidestory_08

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Indeed, but the Exarch fully expected to destroy the timeline.

    It didn't work out that way, but he pressed the big red button to nuke it. Just because the nuke didn't launch doesn't mean that wasn't his intention.
    He didn't know what would happen, though, but you're right in that he went through with it under that assumption.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Ah. Yeah the short story firmly establishes that timeline didn't disappear. That's why I was confused. Because that means there's essentialy no trade-off and it's completely win-win for everyone.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Not sure if' you've seen it yet or not, but this is the short story Bovinity and I are referring to.

    That timeline wasn't erased.

    https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes.../#sidestory_08
    Thats what i get for smugly thinking i was starting to understand the game's universe. Now we have pocket dimensions? Im gonna assume theyre all dead though but midgarsommer pulled them into a dream of some kind (headcannon obviously)...

    Spurred by this i did a search on divergent timelines... and now i realise why i was supposed to do omega. Eugh. The pains of being an msq andy.
    Last edited by ippollite; 2021-09-16 at 12:00 AM.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Yo thanks for sharing that man. I knew it hadnt been erased but I had written it off as eventually reaching being hopeless and doomed, a timeline with a termination point that eventually ceased to be of its own accord. I hope they manage to redevelop their world and avert the next 3-4 planned calamities, Since their heroes are dead, they'll have to make heroes of themselves.

  6. #166
    Im VERY disappointed in Elidibus. I may have to reassess my idea that he wants 'balance' (just finished 5.2 for context).

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    Im VERY disappointed in Elidibus. I may have to reassess my idea that he wants 'balance' (just finished 5.2 for context).
    I think in 5.2 and 5.3 Elidibus just wants revenge for us killing Emet-Selch and is doing it in a VERY roundabout way.

    EDIT:

    What I find interesting about Elidibus is that 5.2/5.3 suggests that the Elidibus we're dealing with isn't the original Elidibus, as the original Elidibus went on to become the Vessel for Zodiark's summoning.
    Last edited by RampageBW1; 2021-09-20 at 04:44 PM.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by RampageBW1 View Post
    I think in 5.2 and 5.3 Elidibus just wants revenge for us killing Emet-Selch and is doing it in a VERY roundabout way.

    EDIT:

    What I find interesting about Elidibus is that 5.2/5.3 suggests that the Elidibus we're dealing with isn't the original Elidibus, as the original Elidibus went on to become the Vessel for Zodiark's summoning.
    5.2ish kind of...
    the literal heart of zodiark, right? Just as minfilia (the allegedly 'useless' miner) is the literal heart of hydaelyn. Me and y'shtola are paying attention.
    Last edited by ippollite; 2021-09-20 at 04:57 PM.

  9. #169
    Dreadlord Molvonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RampageBW1 View Post
    I think in 5.2 and 5.3 Elidibus just wants revenge for us killing Emet-Selch and is doing it in a VERY roundabout way.

    EDIT:

    What I find interesting about Elidibus is that 5.2/5.3 suggests that the Elidibus we're dealing with isn't the original Elidibus, as the original Elidibus went on to become the Vessel for Zodiark's summoning.
    About Elidibus: It is the very same one, the heart of Zodiark, which leads a few characters to wonder how he broke free. This is likely something we'll see expanded upon in Endbringers. I think they were under the belief it was someone different due to his sacrifice -- how can someone dead be alive again, and some such.

    I think the fundamentals of Elidibus is that he helped create the heros needed to 'enact' particular end of the world scenarios, such as the Light washing all over the 1st Shard. From what I understood, this came about because the Ascians screwed up with the 13th and created a useless 'void' world (which we fight through the Void Ark - Mnach raids). So Elidibus was the 'white' (hence the robes) to 'counter' the rest of the team's 'dark', despite all aiming for the same goal.

    Unfortunately, we don't know the reasoning behind it yet, since they don't go into too much detail about why the 13th shard was basically a wash, but I think it has to do with 'Hope', which involves 'Prayer' and the creation of Primals (of which Zodiark is, and the Ascians are, I believe, Tempered in some way.)
    Just because I advocate your ability to play and enjoy WoW Classic doesn't mean I think it'll be successful.

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  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    5.2ish kind of...
    the literal heart of zodiark, right? Just as minfilia (the allegedly 'useless' miner) is the literal heart of hydaelyn. Me and y'shtola are paying attention.
    Thing is, Hydaelyn was summoned very similarly to Zodiark, so one of the Amaroutines whom didn't think that resummoning Zodiark was the way to go would have also had to become a vessel for Hydaelyn's heart. Rechecking the related quest from 5.2, his name was Venat IIRC. If he indeead became Hydaelyn's heart, why did Minfillia have to fill the role later?

    Quote Originally Posted by Molvonos View Post
    About Elidibus: It is the very same one, the heart of Zodiark, which leads a few characters to wonder how he broke free. This is likely something we'll see expanded upon in Endbringers. I think they were under the belief it was someone different due to his sacrifice -- how can someone dead be alive again, and some such.

    I think the fundamentals of Elidibus is that he helped create the heros needed to 'enact' particular end of the world scenarios, such as the Light washing all over the 1st Shard. From what I understood, this came about because the Ascians screwed up with the 13th and created a useless 'void' world (which we fight through the Void Ark - Mnach raids). So Elidibus was the 'white' (hence the robes) to 'counter' the rest of the team's 'dark', despite all aiming for the same goal.

    Unfortunately, we don't know the reasoning behind it yet, since they don't go into too much detail about why the 13th shard was basically a wash, but I think it has to do with 'Hope', which involves 'Prayer' and the creation of Primals (of which Zodiark is, and the Ascians are, I believe, Tempered in some way.)
    Oh wow, so Elidibus broke free and lived again.

  11. #171
    I love your teaser (i clicked - i hate mysteries!). NO MORE SPOILERS!!! Im so close! (eta: should note, the NO MORE SPOILERS comment is completely directed at myself. This is, after all a spoiler thread )
    Last edited by ippollite; 2021-09-21 at 09:24 AM.

  12. #172
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    Would it be possible that Venat was relieved as her duty as Hydaelyn's heart, and Minifilla took her place? Venat is heavily hinted as being part of us and perhaps it was seen as necessary to make the WoL more complete in order to combat the unsundered ones? Or does Minifillia even occupy the role of her heart at all? I guess some of these questions might not get answered until Endwalker, and most of it's just speculation.

    What I don't quite understand is Elidibus and Emet-Selch taking the form of primal beings in the game. Were all ancients primals, or because of the creation magic they possess can just assume primal like forms without actually being primals themselves. It would just seem weird to have all of the ancient ones literally be primals themselves.

  13. #173
    The Insane Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    I don't know if the Elidibus we see walking around in the modern day is the same guy from before Zodiark was summoned. It sounds like everyone who got sacrificed to Zodiark dissolved into the aether juice that was then molded into Zodiark by the summoning spell. Then, while Zodiark was fixing the planet, he heard that there was some disturbance within the Convocation, and then created "Elidibus" and told him to go check it out. The two were seperate beings at the time of the sundering, with Elidibus somehow escaping it while Zodiark got divided along with everyone else (the Unsundered were probably on the moon for some reason when that went down, outside the range of the Sundering attack). Elidibus could have been a familiar conjured by Zodiark (creation magic = primal summoning = familiars = same thing really, an artificial being made of aether). Or it could have regurgitated Elidibus' actual soul, though it should be noted that we have no proof that Zodiark could actually regurgitate souls like the Ascians thought/claimed he could. The fact that "Elidibus" couldn't quite recognize the WoL or who he made his promise to might be indicative that he is an artificial creation; he's having vague memories of a dead man. You could make a case for either interpretation (Elidibus was a familiar or he really was brought back with severe memory loss).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Would it be possible that Venat was relieved as her duty as Hydaelyn's heart, and Minifilla took her place? Venat is heavily hinted as being part of us and perhaps it was seen as necessary to make the WoL more complete in order to combat the unsundered ones? Or does Minifillia even occupy the role of her heart at all? I guess some of these questions might not get answered until Endwalker, and most of it's just speculation.
    My understanding is that Hydaelyn/"Venat" is a being located at the very heart of the planet, where the Lifestream is. She may or may not still have a body at this point (possibly the giant crystal we kept seeing in ARR and HW? Perhaps expending almost all of her power over the millennia wore down her original form depicted on the cave murals into that crystal?). Or she might be disembodied. From within the planet, Hydaelyn apparently had to expend some energy in order to communicate/use telepathy with people on the surface, and shielding the WoL from Ultima at the end of ARR drained almost all of the energy she had left, so she had to find another person (ie another bag of aether) to use to keep communicating with the people on the surface. And then Minfillia died holding back the Flood of Light and became a disembodied spirit that needed to keep possessing people in order to not return to the Lifestream and dissolve into aether, which is what happens in ShB at Amh Araeng.
    Last edited by Val the Moofia Boss; 2021-09-20 at 08:33 PM.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    5.2ish kind of...
    the literal heart of zodiark, right? Just as minfilia (the allegedly 'useless' miner) is the literal heart of hydaelyn. Me and y'shtola are paying attention.
    She isn't. Nor did she fulfill any such role. Hydaelyn is weak, she needed someone to speak for her, that person being Minfillia. She isn't the same thing as Elidibus.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Would it be possible that Venat was relieved as her duty as Hydaelyn's heart, and Minifilla took her place? Venat is heavily hinted as being part of us and perhaps it was seen as necessary to make the WoL more complete in order to combat the unsundered ones? Or does Minifillia even occupy the role of her heart at all? I guess some of these questions might not get answered until Endwalker, and most of it's just speculation.
    It's not Venat that's part of us, it's Azem. Venat was still on the Convocation and was the leader of the faction that proposed and ultimately summoned Hydaelyn, and therefore presumably filled the same role Elidibus did with Zodiark, as the heart of the being they summoned. Azem was called a defector, was essentially removed from the Convocation, but was the "Adventurer" who traveled the world and had the power to summon allies to their side, which we did in the fight against Elidbus in the Seat of Sacrifice Trial using Azem's soul stone or whatever that was.

    What I don't quite understand is Elidibus and Emet-Selch taking the form of primal beings in the game. Were all ancients primals, or because of the creation magic they possess can just assume primal like forms without actually being primals themselves. It would just seem weird to have all of the ancient ones literally be primals themselves.
    The Elidibus we encounter in Patch 5.3 admitted to being a Primal at the end of that solo scenario when Yshtola questioned him. Emet Selch just revealed his "true form" but was not a Primal.

    I just finished playing through the 5.3 story again last night, so it's all fresh. I'm a big fan of the story and lore here and even the second time around, knowing the framework, it still blew my mind. Love this game.

  16. #176
    The Insane Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Venat was not a member of the Convocation of 14. The Convocation only consisted of the 13 Ascians and the WoL.

  17. #177
    Minfilia was the voice of hydaelyn, when Hydee was very weak post-arr

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    The thing about Elidibus is that he himself is a primal as well. Y'shtola even makes a point of asking him if he's acting on his own will, or the will of those who fueled his existence.

    So whether the Elidibus we meet and the original Elidibus are actually one and the same seems to be unlikely. Or at the very least, much of who he was is lost.
    Elidibus is a primal the same way Ysale was a primal. And yes it was the same one as before the final days.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenjen View Post
    Minfilia was the voice of hydaelyn, when Hydee was very weak post-arr
    Venat is still the heart of Hydaelyn and Minfillia was basically made into "Her" Ascian.

  19. #179
    Another random thought (havent started 5.3 since last weekend - im scared to see it end... and also to have things cleared up (xnxp)).

    So, 'the echo'. Well, i know a few things are clear from cutscenes (i mean, it could be massive fakeouts, but the game hasnt really done... any?... fakeouts so far?)

    Im probably being too literal, but a week or 2 ago i had this thought on where our power comes from (sparked by emet castigating us for failing to see what we 'were' despite being 'seven times rejoined'); then finishing amaurot getting that brief vision confirming your nature (and the possibility of returning to your true nature).

    So the echo (maybe the original japanese term would really help here - sorry, nihongo wakkanaii). Then the echo is literally the echo of our... whats the right word? Authentic... completed... full existence?

    Which would make anyone with the echo a fragment of an ancient. Which made me wonder about minfillia. Because early on you just think she's one of Hydaelyn's chosen and the echo is just a mechanic for Hydaelyn to communicate with us. But as the story winds itself around, you realise that the echo isnt that and cant be that (hence my initial reaction, my echo is getting stronger through rejoining in an inverse relationship with hydaelyn's strength).

    Oh god, i dont want to tangent, but if i am the vehicle of Hydaelyn, then cosmically, the second hydaelyn loses all their power, i gain all the power to recreate them (assuming im one of the people who originally brought hydaelyn into being? Sorry, tangent, but there were three survivors, two of them are gone and the third is a primal (like ysale's shiva im assuming)).

    So non tangent and back to minfillia. If i read Katchii correct that means elidibus isnt the actual elidibus at the heart of zodiark but a shade. So why couldnt minfilia be a shade of venat? I appreciate thats not what i initially said. I said she was literally the heart. Just adjusting in real time... but she also has the echo... is that spanners in my reasoning?, if she has the echo, shes a fragment of an ancient. But venat is, i assume completely consumed and a primal/shade couldnt have the echo...
    BUT, could it be argued that the rejoining splinters venat with each one? Thus with each rejoining, "The Minfilia" also gains power in the source?

    Im going way off the deep end, right? I know. I'll stop and play through 5.3but true to my nature, i love the speculation more than the reality, you'll just have to be patient

    Am i right in thinking that only three of us have the echo? Me, minfilia and Krile? Because it really makes me wonder who Krile is.

    But then again, you dont have to be part of the 14 right? There's plenty of ancients wandering about who are talking about the convocation and are definitely ancients... But that wouldnt be storytelling... so is there one sentient AI thusfar with a name?
    Last edited by ippollite; 2021-09-24 at 12:11 PM.

  20. #180
    so im gonna assume with my next conversation with Hythlodaeus that the conversation we're having right now is gendered for a reason. She... did this. I constructed this for HER...

    I am absolutely convinced if i fantasiad prior to this, it'd be he/him. So confirmation of a sort on who i am. I missed some of this because im playing with gshade (which i just installed) - i love the borderlands aesthetic, but the text is a mess through it.

    im gonna ask an actual spoiler question (and not just randomly spurt out my bullshit).

    Who the fuck is hythlodaeus? Wait... no! Do we find out who they are in this expansion? Thats my actual question. (yes/no only). My instinct is we wont because its the best mystery in the game. Heres the list of current echo operatives: Krile, me, Minfilia. If i want to be random: The exarch (im still not sure if he has the echo, but he matches the behavior). Thats all of them, right? Oh wait, i missed Y'sale (and did so earlier). Is there any one else with the echo established by the game? I ask because its super important.
    Last edited by ippollite; 2021-09-25 at 12:26 PM.

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