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  1. #1121
    EW's patch MSQ was slow and drawn out and dropped some balls re: Golbez/Durante development considering how hard it was stretched out. Myth's story was just outright offensive to me. Not sure what the impetus is. Laziness, or spite towards everything related to Hydaelyn (I'm shocked the Watcher didn't get killed off yet), or just a really desperate ploy to force people to forget about what came before so we can focus on G'raha eating tacos in Tural. All I know is that I dislike it. I know we're God killers and all, but why is Endwalker just a series of progressive suicides by WoL? I like 6.0. I did, and still do. There's some things I would have done differently for sure, but I still think it's better than 5.0 was and I stand by that. But the constant suicide/"death is actually beautiful guys :33" shit is starting to grate on me.

  2. #1122
    This time around the patch MSQ was the 'side content' in terms of its relation to the overall plot and the raid/alliance raid were the post-expansion wrapping up of the lingering MSQ threads.

    In that regard I think it's totally fine.

    I do think people are way intentionally overly critical of the EW patch content for some bizarre reason, it's fine. I think people have an idea of a patch that they really love (Like 5.3) and are comparing every patch in EW to that one specific one when that's not really fair if you look at the size and scope of something like 5.1 or 4.2, ect.

    I don't really see how you can read EW as "suicide and death is actually beautiful guys" because that's absolutely not the vibe I got. It was all these supremely old people who were still barely holding on because they sacrificed their entire eternal lives (In the scheme of time) to try and save the planet finally getting the closure they needed so they could let go and stop hurting themselves for us because things are okay now.
    Last edited by Arlette; 2023-11-28 at 08:00 PM.

  3. #1123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    I honestly enjoyed Myths way more than post EW's MSQ
    Pretty damn low bar set there, sadly. EW patch content was a step above garbage, but not by much. Zero was fun for about one patch but quickly got boring and I've already mentioned my numerous issues with the overall storytelling. I hate that "midwalker" keeps feeling so accurate for the expansion as a whole. 7.0 needs to be really amazing or I'm really going to wonder where all the effort went, because I don't think it went into EW.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Arlette View Post
    I do think people are way intentionally overly critical of the EW patch content for some bizarre reason, it's fine. I think people have an idea of a patch that they really love (Like 5.3) and are comparing every patch in EW to that one specific one when that's not really fair if you look at the size and scope of something like 5.1 or 4.2, ect.
    I try to look at it as a complete whole. As a whole, ShB is obviously pretty much the high water mark for post MSQ content, though I do think it took a step down after 5.3. SB was also quite strong throughout most of it, between the Tsukuyomi arc followed by the lead-up to ShB. HW had us finally put down the mad dog Nidhogg and rescue Estinien. I think EW is still above Seventh Astral Era, because that arc is just *horrible*, but I think it's also notably behind all of the other post-MSQ arcs.

  4. #1124
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    Pulling the curtain back on the origin of the twelve isn't really the same thing as "tearing it down". Especially when the amount of characters in the world who even knows about all this at this point can more or less be counted on one hand.

    Id say the failings of this AR series were more in the gameplay, all 3 were a bit undertuned right out of the gate, and there's very little in the fights designed around that there's effectively 3 full parties in an AR, especially given that we've seen them use that previously.

  5. #1125
    I am Murloc! Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    I know we're God killers and all, but why is Endwalker just a series of progressive suicides by WoL? I like 6.0. I did, and still do. There's some things I would have done differently for sure, but I still think it's better than 5.0 was and I stand by that. But the constant suicide/"death is actually beautiful guys :33" shit is starting to grate on me.
    While I don't fully understand the whole 'yo, let's fight the WoL before dying yay' mentality, I do think that they wanted to rest after so long. With the demise of the Endsinger and Zodiark they aren't really 'needed'. With the Lifestream they'll probably come back as mortals at some point.

    Wonder what the Watcher will do though.
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  6. #1126
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    While I don't fully understand the whole 'yo, let's fight the WoL before dying yay' mentality, I do think that they wanted to rest after so long. With the demise of the Endsinger and Zodiark they aren't really 'needed'. With the Lifestream they'll probably come back as mortals at some point.

    Wonder what the Watcher will do though.
    It's not really novel after basically every support pillar deity figure and no few of the enemies in the game pulled the same shtick.

    And it was not necessary with Myths at all. They keep professing their love for mankind and the world, and then they all just peace out of there. Except Oschon. Apparently, they didn't all [b]need[/b] to die to offer their energies to the world, so that means it was a deliberate decision by them go "cya lol". It's dumb, and it just feels lazy. Had Deryk not stayed behind, I might have been like "okay, they need to do this because there's no other choice", but the fact that he's the one to make it out of it because apparently it's totally an option to just dump their powers and live for a mortal lifetime among the people they so claim to adore is exactly what makes this all so nonsensical. And of course the one person who doesn't outright off themselves is a bishie guy.

  7. #1127
    They were all Ancients who wanted to rest after millennia of sticking around having to maintain a vigil that they find out they don't even need to do because mankind has grown strong enough.

    I don't see what's so hard to really understand about that.

    One of them wanting to stay around because they are essentially us - Azem - and want to keep experiencing everything the world has to offer, is also equally in character and not surprising.

    They didn't NEED to die. I don't think that's ever said in the story. They could have relinquished their energies to the planet if they thought it could sustain itself, like Hydaelyn could have. But they wanted to see, like her, that mankind could sustain itself.

    Emet loved his people, Themis loved his people, Venat loved her people. They all were also exhausted beyond imagination, with Themis so brain addled that he was essentially an Alzheimer victim perpetually stuck in the final stage forever, whose rest was seen as a godsend after their lives.

    You seem to have taken the most intentionally cynical view of that questline that you possibly could have, including just...making some things up...just to dislike it. And again I find it the weakest EW plotline (Although still not bad) but its nowhere near how you're framing it.
    Last edited by Arlette; 2023-11-29 at 04:12 PM.

  8. #1128
    I am Murloc! Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlette View Post

    One of them wanting to stay around because they are essentially us - Azem - and want to keep experiencing everything the world has to offer, is also equally in character and not surprising..
    Is this mentioned or even inferred at any point?
    Oschon was a guy who met Venat in the wilderness. The only mention of Azem between the Twelve is with Azeyma, who wanted to train under Venat and Azem.

    We are Azem, or at least his/her reincarnated shard
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  9. #1129
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Is this mentioned or even inferred at any point?
    Oschon was a guy who met Venat in the wilderness. The only mention of Azem between the Twelve is with Azeyma, who wanted to train under Venat and Azem.

    We are Azem, or at least his/her reincarnated shard
    Oh I'm sorry I didn't mean that Oschon WAS Azem, but was like Azem in that they eschewed normal roles in their society and liked to wander about exploring. I worded that poorly. I was drawing the point that Oschon wanting to stay behind and not move on was in character for him because he was like Azem (And Venat -- which makes sense) in that they wanted to keep seeing everything the world had to offer.
    Last edited by Arlette; 2023-11-29 at 04:35 PM.

  10. #1130
    Quote Originally Posted by Arlette View Post
    They were all Ancients who wanted to rest after millennia of sticking around having to maintain a vigil that they find out they don't even need to do because mankind has grown strong enough.

    I don't see what's so hard to really understand about that.
    There is nothing to understand or not understand. It. Is. Tired. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that. My god, why can't you guys look past this pretentious "urr but ackchually its le super deep and a positive thing for them because they're exhausted" mentality to see how fucking inane and annoying it is to have constant retreads of the same basic idea while chunks of intrigue from 1.0 are torn out and binned because the writers just can't be bothered to accommodate for them anymore. Hydaelyn has been with us from the start. She got super-killed off for no other reason than "le end of zodiark-hydaelyn" saga under the pretext that "oh she's just so tired this is actually beautiful." Fandaniel, in the end, just wanted to die, and his only prerequisite was that others suffered and died with him. A completely valuable enchantment for the Crystal of Azem got wasted because Emet-Selch only popped back up to do a magic trick and then offed himself, because he just wanted to die. Golbez' entire idea was for him and all other voidsent to die and find eternal rest, and the Archfiends considered it the ultimate reward for their service. Themis, in the end, just wanted to die and get some rest. The Twelve, sans specifically one of them who got halted by a chimp, wanted to die and find rest, despite emphatically stating how much they love the world and its people.

    This shtick is boring, lazy, old. Do something better with your characters, and for the love of god stop trying to convince me to like it by leaning into some smarmy prefabricated excuse that I just don't get how beautiful and sensible it all really is. Stop killing characters off simply because you're too pea-brained to deal with the consequences of these characters existing going forward.

    Stop feeling personally slighted because I am tired of seeing so many foundations and conceptually interesting characters from the pre-Dawntrail arc be scattered to the winds with the exact same excuse time and again.

    I swear, having any type of discussion that isn't reduced to a simpleminded "square bad" "no square good actually" "dawntrail cringe" "dawntrail epic" is impossible in this community. You just bang your head into a wall repeating the same discussion quashing rationalizations provided by CBU3 that the person took exception to in the first place.
    Last edited by Yarathir; 2023-11-29 at 05:10 PM.

  11. #1131
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    There is nothing to understand or not understand. It. Is. Tired. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that. My god, why can't you guys look past this pretentious "urr but ackchually its le super deep and a positive thing for them because they're exhausted" mentality to see how fucking inane and annoying it is to have constant retreads of the same basic idea while chunks of intrigue from 1.0 are torn out and binned because the writers just can't be bothered to accommodate for them anymore.
    You seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder because I never said that it was super deep. It's not super deep. It's the literal word of the text. That you're choosing to ignore to scream about.

    Explaining how you're factually wrong in your bitching and moaning isn't trying to convince you to like it. It's to show that you're either intentionally being ignorant of the plot or your ability to analyze media is so woefully terrible that you shouldn't be listened to on any topic.

    Also my god the projection of trying to say anybody else is personally slighted when you've gone on and on about this topic that I said was the worst plotline in EW lol

    You can keep repeating your incorrect interpretation of a rather basic plot element all you want just to keep screaming about it but that doesn't suddenly make your weird pretzel logic-ed cynicism on it true and correct. Not sure what story you've been pretending to follow if you're upset at the natural conclusion of the plot that happened.

    You started the whole tangent by saying the raid "tore down everything about the old arc" which was a very clear indication you either were not paying attention or you were upset your headcanon that was not supported in the game did not come to pass. Its a very Pyromancer-like reaction.

    Either way its more than enough reason for people to not listen to you. I didn't think you'd spin so out of control instantly at pushback but just because somebody doesn't even particularly like a storyline means that your absolute crazy interpretation made just to be performatively upset is then correct.

    Play WoW I guess? Or I'm sure some rage thread on reddit will blindly nod in acceptance to your ridiculous interpretations that you have to squint and do a headstand to understand. I dunno what to tell you lol
    Last edited by Arlette; 2023-11-29 at 06:37 PM.

  12. #1132
    Quote Originally Posted by Arlette View Post
    You seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder because I never said that it was super deep.

    It's not super deep.

    It's the literal word of the text. That you're choosing to ignore to scream about.

    Also my god the projection of trying to say anybody else is personally slighted when you've gone on and on about this topic that I said was the worst plotline in EW lol
    Why are you like this, Arlette? No, really.

    It's almost as if the entire point of my post is that I understand what they were trying to get across, what their rationalization was, and that I am specifically and unambiguously opposed to it. In response, you almost verbatim paste that very same rationalization back at me and make some insinuation that I don't get it or don't want to get it with such rote fervor that I'm almost convinced this is the equivalent of a voicemail greeting.

    What if you took issue with some storyline in WoW and specifically Blizzard's stated narrative reason for doing it, and in return, you were told "Yes, but Blizzard chose to do it this way and gave you the out of game and in story reason for doing it. It's not that hard to understand. Maybe you just have a chip on your shoulder and are trying to be cynical."

  13. #1133
    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Serpent View Post
    Yes. I suppose it's a spoiler thread, so - Golbez is quite simply Ardbert without the character development or backstory. Just like Meteion largely rehashed concepts and themes that Amaurot/second half of Tempest raised in ShB (particularly with Dead Ends being essentially a repeat of Amaurot dungeon itself and Ultima Thule being "like Tempest but more of it.")

    As others have said, EW has higher highs than ShB reached, but it also has a *LOT* lower lows. Overall I think ShB was a better product, a better story. But it's inevitable that there's going to be some misses when you're trying to use a single expansion to wrap up so many different story threads (EW probably should've just been two expansions, but that'll get into more idealism vs business sense stuff.)

    I don't really see the *point* of the EW patch content though. It wasn't offensive, but it didn't seem to have much purpose. Maybe Azdaja will play some role in connecting us to dragon-ruled Meracydia or something? And yeah sure we learned some more stuff while fiddling around in the 13th, but how much of that was really only doable there? Ryne herself seemed to admit she just needed a slap on the ass to get her to really investigate the light/dark aether connection, did that really require the introduction of a rather bland character?
    Idk. I think Shadowbringers hit higher highs tbh. That entire expansion was a fucking delight to play start to finish. Everything even the post story content was good for me imo.

    Endwalker i fucking hated as soon as the space rabbits came out. Like wtf. It was a total tone break. Here's this serious conclusionary story, ANDDDD full stop enjoy the space wabbits. FUCK OFF with those.

    I will say, when Zenos became Shinryu and flew to the end of the universe. That's one of my favorites. But for EW..that's about it.

  14. #1134
    Quote Originally Posted by Arlette View Post
    You DO realize that you're the one who said that first, yes? Just in the opposite fashion.
    I appreciate your very genuine and very intellectually honest attempt to engage and interact with what was said, and the fact that you didn't just deliberately circumvent the core message of my post just to make some cheap "no u" remark at the one specific thing you felt you could tackle.

  15. #1135
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    how fucking inane and annoying it is to have constant retreads of the same basic idea while chunks of intrigue from 1.0 are torn out and binned because the writers just can't be bothered to accommodate for them anymore.
    Pretty much, yeah. In the absence of a use for these characters they've pretty much just said, "We're moving on, so everyone gotta die." and it's weird.

    I guess the first time it was this symbolic passing of the torch and whatnot, but then it just keeps happening and it's like...ok, writers, we get it.

  16. #1136
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    Pretty much, yeah. In the absence of a use for these characters they've pretty much just said, "We're moving on, so everyone gotta die." and it's weird.

    I guess the first time it was this symbolic passing of the torch and whatnot, but then it just keeps happening and it's like...ok, writers, we get it.
    That's how it feels to me. "Let the past die. No reminders of the old things that interested you. We'll MAKE you look forward to the future if we need to, by turning the past into a big void with only the taco-eating catboy and the Scions to anchor it down." Okay, that's a bit overly dramatic, I concede, and it's probably not so much malice as it is... I dunno, laziness? Being daunted by the prospect of having to deal with all these characters still existing in a world and somehow having to justify their lack of intercession. Still, it just bums me out beyond measure, and I'm someone who loved 6.0, liked Pandaemonium and was fine with 6.x for the most part, even if I do admit it was obviously very stretched out and elongated with a bunch of fluff. I'm not a doomsayer, nor a cynic.

    I've had literal extended arguments about this, insisting that I feel people are being too hard on xyz storyline during EW and giving my reasons for why I thought so. In this case, it just really, really, really got to me that we keep losing what amount to foundational stones of the setting with the exact same reason given time and time again. I want to like EW, but at this rate, it's going to carry this bitter note of being the most "suicide by WoL" expansion thus far. Inordinately so.

    I get that Hydaelyn/Venat had to go, even if I'm still personally, subjectively butthurt about it (and probably will be for years to come), and particularly the fact that they went "she's not dead, she's supermegaobliviondead" even though nobody asked for that. That the other Ancients want to be cleansed by the Aetherial Sea and reincarnate as clean slates, I can get too, but the Twelve? It's just getting gratuitous now. The whole "we've been around for thousands of years and we want to eepy" thing just gets too repetitive. With all their enthusiasm for the world and its people, it would make sense for all of them to cast aside their divinity and inhabit mortal bodies.

    They said it themselves: a mortal lifespan is nothing by their reckoning, so why not travel it, experience it, get to intimately know it like they never had the opportunity to do before, with the short 100 years left to them? For what amounts to the blink of an eye in their perception, they can see the world through mortals eyes like Deryk, and then, then they can go and return to the Lifestream to start anew as different people.

  17. #1137
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    That's how it feels to me. "Let the past die. No reminders of the old things that interested you. We'll MAKE you look forward to the future if we need to, by turning the past into a big void with only the taco-eating catboy and the Scions to anchor it down." Okay, that's a bit overly dramatic, I concede, and it's probably not so much malice as it is... I dunno, laziness?
    It's not uncommon in live games, specifically MMOs. There's a lot of, "We need to force players into the new shiny thing, so scorched earth everything else."

    In XIV specifically it makes me a bit sad because the game was known for not really doing that - story threads and elements were preserved, the threads woven into new stories, etc.

  18. #1138
    Scarab Lord Auxis's Avatar
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    What was (late SB/early ShB spoiler) Emet/Hades doing between Solus dying and his grand reveal in the throne room in the SB patches?

    I never realised until now, but that's a large swathe of time for him to be inactive. Was he doing stuff off-screen that I'm not aware of (haven't read any short stories) or was he not written into the lore as a character at that time?
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  19. #1139
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auxis View Post
    What was (late SB/early ShB spoiler) Emet/Hades doing between Solus dying and his grand reveal in the throne room in the SB patches?

    I never realised until now, but that's a large swathe of time for him to be inactive. Was he doing stuff off-screen that I'm not aware of (haven't read any short stories) or was he not written into the lore as a character at that time?
    The Ascians seem to have been very active across multiple worlds/shards aside from the Source, so he was probably helping engineer whatever calamities were necessary to merge the remaining shards back into the Source to restore Etheirys and the ancients. He returned to the Source when the Eighth Umbral Calamity seemed to be nigh to put the finishing touches on it, more or less.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

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