Why the Grind System is Pure Shit in Any Game

[LeeRoyMahBoy]

I like it too sometimes because it objectively satisfies our instinct to like dopamine secretion (it gets released after "succeeding at tasks" even if we fake it or even if we waste our time).
But it's a horrible thing to have ENFORCED. Meaning: I may want to do high-end raiding for a week and not grind even if I do enjoy grinding sometimes.

Would you like to be forced to fast before every meal? That's what some games do with grinding.
Worse yet: anywhere where there is grinding, and somebody likes some content but it's gated behind an endless grind wall, that person is literally forced to grind to enjoy that particular activity, no matter what.

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In what way is doing something and being rewarded for it "content"? Is that what you're asking?

This post is pretty cringe. I mean we're touching on iamverysmart levels of stupidity here

Can you understand a simple question? I'm asking whether you enjoy doing nothing? If you do, you might as well watch paint dry.

Doing something requires engaging with something in a meaningful way - the direct antithesis of grinding.

Ohh yes baby! because you instantly ran out of arguments before you even made the post, now it's "stupid". thanks for enforcing my point the best way possible

[Tooshie]

So you go into a restaurant, order a large sundae, but are given uncooked broccoli first and they make you pay for both?
Or you go into a cinema to watch Avengers or whatever, but first you have to sit through watching two hours of crabs marching into the sea?

Ehhhhhhh....

[LeeRoyMahBoy]

Ehhhhhhh....

That is grinding. Doing boring useless nothing.

[Sciborg]

That is grinding. Doing boring useless nothing.

Not really. Grinding is supposed to trigger the same accomplished feeling of putting in effort or time towards something and seeing that effort or time be rewarded, in the case of MMOs the reward is usually consistent progression, it's not the same as purchasing something and being denied the end product until certain requirements are met unless you look at it from the perspective of being owed the end reward without attaining it first. If you insist on using a food analogy it would be closer to growing your own vegetables and then finally being able to cook them, which does not have the same feeling as simply buying the vegetables, despite the meal itself remaining unchanged.

[Zyrinx]

Nah, with no grinds, we are playing Dig Dug or Pac Man. Grinds aren't the issue, like, at all.

Edit to say, arcade style games are fine and good, but they aren't MMOs.

[Kumorii]

I'm sure there are also people who enjoy masturbating with sandpaper. Or who think they are a cat, dog, apache helicopter or whatever.
But enjoying something bad, or having misconceptions about your own body or the world itself because of having a mental illness is not the same as looking at the objective reality that we all live in.

Sure video games are there to kill time, but you can go beyond the illusion of doing something relevant to you when in actuality what you're doing is not even relevant to yourself, despite you thinking it is. That is the quintessence of living under and illusion.

Which just proves my point. The fact that you equate it to something that would be downright painful just shows how detached you are to the concept of people liking different things. I hate grinding but I would never equate it to something that's like masturbating with sandpaper.

Same as I don't really like nascar. That doesn't mean it's rational for me to say "yeah and people like chopping their dick off as well" as a response to someone else saying they do like it.

But yeah, I don't think there is much discussion to be had due to your behaviour of thinking there is an objective standard about subjective perceptions and values for oneself.

[LeeRoyMahBoy]

Not really. Grinding is supposed to trigger the same accomplished feeling of putting in effort or time towards something and seeing that effort or time be rewarded, in the case of MMOs the reward is usually consistent progression, it's not the same as purchasing something and being denied the end product until certain requirements are met unless you look at it from the perspective of being owed the end reward without attaining it first. If you insist on using a food analogy it would be closer to growing your own vegetables and then finally being able to cook them, which does not have the same feeling as simply buying the vegetables, despite the meal itself remaining unchanged.

The problem with this is that the seeds cost the same price as the end product - vegetables.
To make matters worse - they don't sell you the end product instead force you to do unnecessary work to obtain what you already paid for.

[mbit]

If grind is so terrible in MMO's why do they all have them? And how did the MMO's get to be so popular?

cause traditional mmo customers were young kids noliving and grind was the only answer to keep them occupied since there was no way to produce content at the pace of consumption. Its why the majority always looked down on mmos -they werent willing to burn their time in a hamster wheel that wasnt even particularly fun. Grind is essentially just a virtual job for people who wanna rp being successful in a game by noliving harder than other players and that was the exact promise of mmos - you dont need to be a good player, just nolive and you can be the best by having the highest stats.

[LeeRoyMahBoy]

Which just proves my point. The fact that you equate it to something that would be downright painful just shows how detached you are to the concept of people liking different things. I hate grinding but I would never equate it to something that's like masturbating with sandpaper.

Same as I don't really like nascar. That doesn't mean it's rational for me to say "yeah and people like chopping their dick off as well" as a response to someone else saying they do like it.

But yeah, I don't think there is much discussion to be had due to your behaviour of thinking there is an objective standard about subjective perceptions and values for oneself.

Well, you don't like pain? How discriminating of you of masochists.

Sure there are options as to what is likeable, like strawberry, valonia or chocolate ice-cream. Shit flavored? No way you would rightly say, yet there are people with mental conditions who would say yes. But if you like grinding, your pov is objectively wrong, because you like something which is utterly wrong.

you just proved My point in that there is an objective reality we all are a part of, and if you like useless or downright idiotic stuff such as grinding, the problem is with you, not the rest of the world.

[noctim2]

Grinding is not a problem per say. It just gets absurd, when you HAVE to grind 10 different currencies to be halfway competitive.

[Greyvax]

Grinding is the foundation on which MMO's are based.

[Dhrizzle]

Now this system is specially designed to give the player the illusion of achieving something simply because they got lucky, or otherwise spent meaningless time playing said game.

Hate to break it to you but all time spent in any game is meaningless and all achievements in them are illusions.

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Well, you don't like pain? How discriminating of you of masochists.

Sure there are options as to what is likeable, like strawberry, valonia or chocolate ice-cream. Shit flavored? No way you would rightly say, yet there are people with mental conditions who would say yes. But if you like grinding, your pov is objectively wrong, because you like something which is utterly wrong.

you just proved My point in that there is an objective reality we all are a part of, and if you like useless or downright idiotic stuff such as grinding, the problem is with you, not the rest of the world.

You also seem to be having issues differentiating your opinions from facts.

[Sciborg]

The problem with this is that the seeds cost the same price as the end product - vegetables.
To make matters worse - they don't sell you the end product instead force you to do unnecessary work to obtain what you already paid for.

Some games are made with this process in mind, there are many which are not.

[LeeRoyMahBoy]

Hate to break it to you but all time spent in any game is meaningless and all achievements in them are illusions.

Hate to break it to you, but playing video games enhances brain functionality in addition to providing entertainment.
What is meaningless is arbitrary restrictions enforced upon you by developers so that you can't play the game properly. Ergo: timegating, grinding etc.

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Some games are made with this process in mind, there are many which are not.

I'm talking about how shitty and condescending on part of the developer it is, that there are games which are.

[Crimson Spears]

Hate to break it to you but all time spent in any game is meaningless and all achievements in them are illusions.

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You also seem to be having issues differentiating your opinions from facts.

That makes grinding even more meaningless... I always hate the "real" take without taking it to its logical conclusion.

[Beastiel]

Grinding is literally what adds weight and meaning to content. One of the largest appeals in an MMO is to feel like you're working towards a larger goal but in a way that is meditative and relaxing (as in, doesn't FEEL like work)

If every reputation-based mount in the game was instead earned by a short quest chain with no barrier to entry then nobody would care about those mounts. Like that seasonal ancient tree mount they gave to everyone for free a while back. Great mount, nobody gives a fuck about it.


This is all so clear and obvious that I've gotta assume OP is trying to rationalize his inability to grind or refuse to confront some other uncomfortable truth. There's really nothing new or exciting to discuss here and I've gotta assume you're being intentionally dense or stubborn.

[Sciborg]

Hate to break it to you, but playing video games enhances brain functionality in addition to providing entertainment.
What is meaningless is arbitrary restrictions enforced upon you by developers so that you can't play the game properly. Ergo: timegating, grinding etc.

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I'm talking about how shitty and condescending on part of the developer it is, that there are games which are.

It's not inherently shitty and condescending to have that kind of acquisition based progression that grinding usually involves, it's just not to your taste. Whatever feedback loop it jumps onto is just less important in you.

[LeeRoyMahBoy]

Grinding is literally what adds weight and meaning to content. One of the largest appeals in an MMO is to feel like you're working towards a larger goal but in a way that is meditative and relaxing (as in, doesn't FEEL like work)

If every reputation-based mount in the game was instead earned by a short quest chain with no barrier to entry then nobody would care about those mounts. Like that seasonal ancient tree mount they gave to everyone for free a while back. Great mount, nobody gives a fuck about it.


This is all so clear and obvious that I've gotta assume OP is trying to rationalize his inability to grind or refuse to confront some other uncomfortable truth. There's really nothing new or exciting to discuss here and I've gotta assume you're being intentionally dense or stubborn.

What you describe and falsely interpret as weight and meaning is nothing more than an illusion.
Actual content: with branching quests, fights, interactions, evolution and of the world - that would be content.

This is so self-evident that I'm going to assume you simply don't have the intellectual capacity of looking beyond killing the same boar 1000 times, and how the game could be different, living and naturally evolving one.

[mbit]

Grinding is literally what adds weight and meaning to content. One of the largest appeals in an MMO is to feel like you're working towards a larger goal but in a way that is meditative and relaxing (as in, doesn't FEEL like work)

If every reputation-based mount in the game was instead earned by a short quest chain with no barrier to entry then nobody would care about those mounts. Like that seasonal ancient tree mount they gave to everyone for free a while back. Great mount, nobody gives a fuck about it.


This is all so clear and obvious that I've gotta assume OP is trying to rationalize his inability to grind or refuse to confront some other uncomfortable truth. There's really nothing new or exciting to discuss here and I've gotta assume you're being intentionally dense or stubborn.

You might care, others dont. Others in fact laugh and think its stupid to waste time grinding a mount reskin over hundreds of hours. And this should be really obvious too but you seem to miss it.

[LeeRoyMahBoy]

It's not inherently shitty and condescending to have that kind of acquisition based progression that grinding usually involves, it's just not to your taste. Whatever feedback loop it jumps onto is just less important in you.

An acquisition-based progression per se would not be the problem. Just make it interesting, not like, oh I'm chopping down this tree or killing the bear for the 10 thousandth time, but make the trees and bears themselves different from each other for example. You axe could break and you need to retrieve the broken piece, differentiate the angle at which you chop, you need to sharpen it now and then, one bear uses this strategy the other one uses another.

Make the things you do at any given time way less monotonous and way more varied. Also get rid of disproportionately high number requirements for anything. Make everything you do, no matter how little, have meaning.

The possibilities of having random variations are virtually endless, and all should emerge organically from a cause.