Why the Grind System is Pure Shit in Any Game

[Dhrizzle]

I have never grinded in my entire life. I leave that shit to assholes like you.

Yet I still enjoy every new patch to its fullest. go figure.
I vary my playstyle and games so it never gets dull instead.

If you repeat the same content again and again just to see some incremental ant's dick length of improvement, instead of playing new content you haven't seen before, there really is something wrong with your brain.

the fact that you yet again fail to read my entrée post, and fail to realize what inflated, meaningless content is, is doubly hilarious. Even rats get bored of the same shit after a while, but I guess this proves people like you are even below them.

If you've never grinded then what, you do the quests, run each dungeon once then quit? How do you play later patches when you are so far behind on gear and whatever the currency/power/thing of the moment is?

[exochaft]

Pretty much this.

MMO players often seem to embrace the idea that simply "spending time" makes them better in some way. Not accomplishing something, not learning something, not honing a skill. No, simply pouring time into a hole.

Then they'll try to lord that spent time over others. As if only they know how to "work hard", and people who spent their time more wisely were simply "lazy" and "entitled".

It's just a rather sad thing for otherwise mediocre people to show off in the absence of anything remarkable. The saddest part is that they're usually not even remarkable in the video game they poured so much time into, because of their myopic focus on grinds over actual improvement.

That's a rather obtuse way of viewing things, as simply "spending time" on something usually does lead to deeper understanding and mastery of certain skills. Even mindless tasks have their uses that can be applicable to other areas of your life. Even in a game setting this can be true, but ultimately most games are about just wasting time in the most reductive sense, giving the player a sense of escapism and/or entertainment. What an individual player gains from playing a game is ultimately exclusive to the individual, not necessarily to find their own self-worth in comparison to others... although in a multiplayer/competitive scenario, the latter could be true as well as the former.

Your argument is one I see a bunch for those that actually defend the use of pay-to-win schemes, as it comes off as someone who looks down on others with pity while judging what other people's gains and desires are as beneath them. Honestly, your wording might have just been expressed in the wrong way for all I know, but the parallels are there. However, let me slightly rephrase what you said in my assumption of your actual meaning: a game would be better if their grinds were more fun and engaging, or had more focus towards the mechanics of the game... and any grind system that is predatory in nature should be addressed.

From there, I would argue that such statements are probably a step in the right direction. However, intent is largely important in whether a system is predatory or not. If there's a system in the game where you can endlessly grind something doing the most monotonous tasks, that by itself isn't predatory. If the game makes it "appear" necessary, that could potentially be bordering on predatory, but ultimately depends on if it actually is necessary for things like player power. If you can skip everything whipping out the MTX's and cash shop as the only alternative, that's blatantly predatory. If anything, I'd define predatory grinds in the gaming sense as systems intentionally designed to extort money out of players via manipulation or abusing human nature... may not be the best definition, but it's a start.

In the end, it comes down to what is fun to do in the eye of the beholder. Sometimes people find it fun to push through mundane tasks just to see if they can do something, which in and of itself tests one's focus and discipline. Gamers playing games with self-imposed restrictions is nothing new, and there's whole communities that engage in such activities even if most players think it's dumb or pointless. It's akin to someone who spends their entire life training for the 100m dash: ultimately, running a world record 100m nowadays isn't necessary or useful to almost anyone, but people still compete for this despite it requiring a lot of time and effort that others may deem better used on something else more profitable or "smarter". From what you quote, a person could actually be happy working at McDonald's compared to other jobs for various reasons, and it may be a conscious choice not to go for electrical engineering or some other field because of what they enjoy. As an example, I'm a retired nuclear engineer and mathematician that mostly loved my work, but I still always loved menial and boring tasks like sweeping floors (something many would consider below my station in terms of training and intellect, as well as a waste of my time) as I can get simple joys and relaxation out of them.

Again, the originally stated argument comes from a place of arrogance (not sure if that was your intent) about knowing what's best for other people and knowing what they want to do. However, when it comes to games or many real life scenarios, the intrinsic value of activities comes down to what individual people want and glean from said activities.

[Dhrizzle]

Pretty much this.

MMO players often seem to embrace the idea that simply "spending time" makes them better in some way. Not accomplishing something, not learning something, not honing a skill. No, simply pouring time into a hole.

Then they'll try to lord that spent time over others. As if only they know how to "work hard", and people who spent their time more wisely were simply "lazy" and "entitled".

It's just a rather sad thing for otherwise mediocre people to show off in the absence of anything remarkable. The saddest part is that they're usually not even remarkable in the video game they poured so much time into, because of their myopic focus on grinds over actual improvement.

You say that but my hundreds of hours of grinding have got me a few mounts that aren't really that rare, some gear that was useful for a few months and is too lo-res and ugly for transmog and a plethora of trade skills and recipes over half a dozen characters that are functionally useless. So I think my sense of superiority is well earned.

[Crimson Spears]

You say that but my hundreds of hours of grinding have got me a few mounts that aren't really that rare, some gear that was useful for a few months and is too lo-res and ugly for transmog and a plethora of trade skills and recipes over half a dozen characters that are functionally useless. So I think my sense of superiority is well earned.

If they could stop themselves from putting power under time gates like sockets and conduits I don't think people would care as much. I find the absurd lengths you have to go to in order to unlock things that should be baseline or profession items is what causes the most friction.

[Queen of Hamsters]

The amount of people getting triggered over the idea of grinding in an MMORPG is... surprising, to say the least.

Some people enjoy grinding, others don't. I have seen it done well in MMORPGs, I've seen it done badly. But even something as simple as progressing the gear of your character would be considered grinding by some. Some consider leveling a grind too big to overcome.

And those people can opt for games designed to have other kinds of progression/reward systems and sit around shitting on those choosing to play what they would not, I suppose.

[Crimson Spears]

The amount of people getting triggered over the idea of grinding in an MMORPG is... surprising, to say the least.

Some people enjoy grinding, others don't. I have seen it done well in MMORPGs, I've seen it done badly. But even something as simple as progressing the gear of your character would be considered grinding by some. Some consider leveling a grind too big to overcome.

And those people can opt for games designed to have other kinds of progression/reward systems and sit around shitting on those choosing to play what they would not, I suppose.

Big thing is grinding was added into wow displacing its established playerbase. Yes if you go back to classic you have the original pvp system but until wod that was really the limits of it. WoW went from a game based around what you could do to slowly forcing in how long you do something.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Big thing is grinding was added into wow displacing its established playerbase. Yes if you go back to classic you have the original pvp system but until wod that was really the limits of it. WoW went from a game based around what you could do to slowly forcing in how long you do something.

I find that highly difficult to believe, but let's just remember that the game was always "displacing" people at a rate of 10 to 1 up until MoP, so...

I specifically remember grinding stuff in TBC content, Vanilla content and WOTLK content on my way to 80. At max level, I started grinding for gear, gold, reputations.

Shitty design decisions as of late which I have issues with are more in terms of how everything's designed, not because there's a "grind" bigger than something I've encountered before. I'd take a long grind that ends over incessant maintenance of X amount of small systems that take "only a short while daily" any time of the day. Difficult to explain, but grinding never burnt me out. BfA and SL system designs, did/do.

[Crimson Spears]

I find that highly difficult to believe, but let's just remember that the game was always "displacing" people at a rate of 10 to 1 up until MoP, so...

I specifically remember grinding stuff in TBC content, Vanilla content and WOTLK content on my way to 80. At max level, I started grinding for gear, gold, reputations...

Perhaps you did but the grinding was tied to content you enjoyed if it involved power or had a way to bypass it. In tbc and wrath most rep could be bought on the ah for enchants.

Times changed... things got moved away from their preferred activates. No longer could a pvper just pvp a raider do dungeons and raids. Now they had to do an ever increasing chore list through content that is painfully obviously not designed for them.

There is no feasible way world content is designed to entertain a mythic raider yet conduits and sockets are locked behind it. There is no way torghast appeals to them either but leggos are. Most of the scorn from the higher end players comes from being dragged kicking and screaming into this dull repetitive content.

All we wanted... all we ever wanted was to be left in our dark heart of the forest where light can not pierce. Leave us there at our rest we begged but instead we were dragged into the light and this our fury sparked our ire gained.

[Al Gorefiend]

Real life is a grindfest. every day its just eat shit sleep and work

[hulkgor]

What exactly is wrong with grinding? This is an MMO, you have to work towards stuff, like gear, some power, some vanity or cosmetics. I like it.

There's something to be said about too much grinding, sure, but grinding is a big part of any mmo.

This isn't a lobby game like PUBG or LOL (yet, or at least not entirely).

Also, WoW always had massive amounts of grind. The original PVP System, early reputations like the Timbermaw, or just endless farming mobs for recipes or mats. It's a big part of it, leave it alone.

[Crimson Spears]

What exactly is wrong with grinding? This is an MMO, you have to work towards stuff, like gear, some power, some vanity or cosmetics. I like it.

There's something to be said about too much grinding, sure, but grinding is a big part of any mmo.

This isn't a lobby game like PUBG or LOL (yet, or at least not entirely).

Also, WoW always had massive amounts of grind. The original PVP System, early reputations like the Timbermaw, or just endless farming mobs for recipes or mats. It's a big part of it, leave it alone.

You know you can read the thread rather then ask the same question on repeat. Who knows maybe the conversation might advance

[gobio]

It is the same tactics as 'all men', or 'I am not a pervert I am Italian' generalization bull shit defection.

when the company does a shitty job on their particular design of a grind or a set of grinding mechanics, how do you defend it? Easy, blame it on 'all grind'.

[hulkgor]

You know you can read the thread rather then ask the same question on repeat. Who knows maybe the conversation might advance

Thanks. This reply certainly advanced the conversation plenty. Guess we should all be grateful for your frequent replies steering us.

[LeeRoyMahBoi]

If you've never grinded then what, you do the quests, run each dungeon once then quit? How do you play later patches when you are so far behind on gear and whatever the currency/power/thing of the moment is?

Ever noticed how all the shit you grind for is only useful for a couple of patches at most, sometimes only 1?

Yeah, there is a reason for that: Sane people don't do the same shit over and over again, and instead either play different content, games, etc, and then jump back.

Each new patch also provides a fresh start for this reason, because each developer knows normal people won't bother to play by their artificial, time-inflating and money-grabbing rules.

- - - Updated - - -

You say that but my hundreds of hours of grinding have got me a few mounts that aren't really that rare, some gear that was useful for a few months and is too lo-res and ugly for transmog and a plethora of trade skills and recipes over half a dozen characters that are functionally useless. So I think my sense of superiority is well earned.

Finally, you start to make sense, especially with your sarcastic, self-effacing last sentence.

[muto]

There’s already a game where your axe-head can break off and you have to fetch it. It’s called RuneScape, and yes it was the best MMO until they ruined it with action bars.

If I wanted to play an action bar game I’d play WoW.

[regardoz]

Read my post 1 post above yours. you will be delightfully surprised

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Listen homie, Doesn't matter. Any grind of any type is still only in place to artificially lengthen play time.

Yes Habibi i agree , oh you got banned , anyway i know how bad you feel about grinding but really the grinding should be changed we are in the age of 2021 people barely have time to play . i would say that since there is classic server why they dont make the hard grind is on the classic and the easy grind on shadowlands rather than the opposite ? now playing TBC as pvper really saves time 90% , there i can just play Battleground and enjoy the whole time , here i have to make million of shits months of playing just to start playing pvp

[LeeRoyMahBoi]

Yes Habibi i agree , oh you got banned , anyway i know how bad you feel about grinding but really the grinding should be changed we are in the age of 2021 people barely have time to play . i would say that since there is classic server why they dont make the hard grind is on the classic and the easy grind on shadowlands rather than the opposite ? now playing TBC as pvper really saves time 90% , there i can just play Battleground and enjoy the whole time , here i have to make million of shits months of playing just to start playing pvp

Don't worry no one can get rid of me
Exactly, just let the players decide what they want to do and whenever they want to do it.
We can each decide how much time we want to spend in the game without artificial time-gating or grinding.

Make content matter, not time.

[Femininity]

So you go into a restaurant, order a large sundae, but are given uncooked broccoli first and they make you pay for both?
Or you go into a cinema to watch Avengers or whatever, but first you have to sit through watching two hours of crabs marching into the sea?

Tbh crabs marching into the sea sounds pretty rad.

[schwarzkopf]

Thankfully - WoW got rid of any required grinds several expansions ago.

Feels good just to play the game and get enough of what you need these days.

[LeeRoyMahBoi]

Tbh crabs marching into the sea sounds pretty rad.

Sure, for 5 minutes maybe.