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  1. #921
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post

    muja doesnt = talib
    omg so the nitpicking here is even more pedantic.

  2. #922
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    omg so the nitpicking here is even more pedantic.
    taliban didnt fight the soviets given that they were founded in 1994 and the soviet union collapsed in 1991, pedantic? no you are just fucking wrong

  3. #923
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    This is absolutely not a fact.
    Well yes and no the US gave billions of dollars to groups that eventually became the Taliban.

  4. #924
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    nothing to do with the US exhibit a : https://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/29/w...rs-office.html
    Yes, a text-book case of how to not reduce corruption and build states.

    However, it isn't just the CIA - but also likely other foreign organizations that were trying to spend money in Afghanistan.

  5. #925
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    taliban didnt fight the soviets given that they were founded in 1994 and the soviet union collapsed in 1991, pedantic? no you are just fucking wrong
    the Mujadin BECAME the Taliban and Al-Qaida.. like holy crap dude there is a clear timeline of how these events unfolded. Here's a vid so you can stop being so aggressively wrong about it.


  6. #926
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    the Mujadin BECAME the Taliban and Al-Qaida.. like holy crap dude there is a clear timeline of how these events unfolded. Here's a vid so you can stop being so aggressively wrong about it.

    im not watching a youtube video,

    the fact that the CIA CREATED the Taliban to fight socialists and the Russians.
    this is stupid and wrong, doubling down wont help you

  7. #927
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    the Mujadin BECAME the Taliban and Al-Qaida.. like holy crap dude there is a clear timeline of how these events unfolded. Here's a vid so you can stop being so aggressively wrong about it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9j1H330Nmo
    The author who wrote the underlying book has recently seen Australia's lockdown as being autocratic, https://twitter.com/johnpilger/statu...80017617068036
    and he has also been cozy with actual autocrats like Chavez in "The War on Democracy".

    Added: He also posted bail for Julian Assange thinking that Assange would absolutely not skip bail.
    Demonstrating that: A fool and his money are soon parted.

    That makes him an unreliable source, at best.
    Last edited by Forogil; 2021-08-21 at 06:28 PM.

  8. #928
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    im not watching a youtube video,



    this is stupid and wrong, doubling down wont help you
    then I don't give a shit about your opinion... you know at least I went though the effort of trying to back my claims instead of... you who are just saying "nuh uh!" like what the hell, what are you even doing here? saying I'm dumb because you can't be bothered to look at evidence of my claims? yea cool, bye.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    The author who wrote the underlying book has recently seen Australia's lockdown as being autocratic, https://twitter.com/johnpilger/statu...80017617068036
    and he has also been cozy with actual autocrats like Chavez in "The War on Democracy".

    That makes him an unreliable source, at best.
    cool I don't see how that makes what is said in the video any less correct.
    Last edited by uuuhname; 2021-08-21 at 06:29 PM.

  9. #929
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    the Mujadin BECAME the Taliban and Al-Qaida.. like holy crap dude there is a clear timeline of how these events unfolded. Here's a vid so you can stop being so aggressively wrong about it.

    The Afghan mujahideen consisted of groups that eventually went to war with each other after the Soviet withdrawal from the region. The Taliban is a product of that civil war. The U.S. didn't help anyone by getting involved there in the '80s but they didn't literally create the Taliban.
    Populists (and "national socialists") look at the supposedly secret deals that run the world "behind the scenes". Child's play. Except that childishness is sinister in adults.
    - Christopher Hitchens

  10. #930
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    cool I don't see how that makes what is said in the video any less correct.
    I cannot say, since I try to avoid propaganda in the guise of documentary from people with clearly documented poor judgement.

  11. #931
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    I don't think anyone bought the whole we're a whole new Taliban thing however they can't keep the population in lockdown forever. Afghanistan will probably go back to its civil wars.
    The Panjshir Valley is already getting prepared.

  12. #932
    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    The Afghan mujahideen consisted of groups that eventually went to war with each other after the Soviet withdrawal from the region. The Taliban is a product of that civil war. The U.S. didn't help anyone by getting involved there in the '80s but they didn't literally create the Taliban.
    ok, so US's hands are therefore completely clean and their actions in that area had no reverberating consequences. got it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    I cannot say, since I try to avoid propaganda in the guise of documentary from people with clearly documented poor judgement.
    unless you can bother to point out what is wrong then sorry I really don't care about your objections in this particular instance.

  13. #933
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    ok, so US's hands are therefore completely clean and their actions in that area had no reverberating consequences. got it.
    Didn't say that at all. Of course, the United States isn't absolved of any wrongdoing in Afghanistan during that period. I'm just saying that framing their existence solely as a product of American imperialism is an oversimplification of who those people are and how and why they exist. It's also annoying because it's a western-centric way to view Afghanistan and denies them agency.

    edit* just want to point out that I'm not trying to dogpile you, just discussing history. I enjoy the vast majority of your posts.
    Last edited by downnola; 2021-08-21 at 06:48 PM.
    Populists (and "national socialists") look at the supposedly secret deals that run the world "behind the scenes". Child's play. Except that childishness is sinister in adults.
    - Christopher Hitchens

  14. #934
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    unless you can bother to point out what is wrong then sorry I really don't care about your objections in this
    particular instance.
    The errors are:
    • Linking to a youtube video instead of presenting any actual statements; thus there are no actual statements to refute.
    • That the author of the underlying book thinks that Australia's lockdown is an autocratic move.
    • And he was cozy with an actual autocrat like Hugo Chavez.
    • And he thought Assange would surely not skip bail. People with poor judgements don't deserve monetized views, and don't deserve to be refuted in each specific instance.

  15. #935
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    then I don't give a shit about your opinion... you know at least I went though the effort of trying to back my claims instead of... you who are just saying "nuh uh!" like what the hell, what are you even doing here?
    i told you why your claim is dumb. The taliban didnt exist when the soviets were in Afghanistan. You are talking mad shit.

    The Taliban were seeded by General Zia's zakat. The levy mainly went to Deobandi movement madrassas. Thousands of them opened up and produced students (a lot were afghan refugees) who ended up forming the Taliban. Islamist's like the Mujaheddin are 'modern' ie more inspired by Qutb and Mawdudi. The Deobandi are traditionalists who believed modern Islamism was corrupt.

    When the soviets left Afghanistan the mujaheddin tore each other to pieces and this further radicalized the deobandi students who thought they were right about modern Islamism.

    Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam in Pakistan represented the deobandis and Benazir Bhutto allied her fathers party with them (as a way back to power after being forced out by the army). She was sick of the conflict in Afghanistan with its corrupting influence on Pakistan and wanted to bring order. So she created a new force (which would also restore Pashtun power given that most of the students were Pashtun).

    General Babar and Benazir unleashed the 'students' from Pakistan after giving them tons of arms and money. And that's the brief story of our Taliban friends.

  16. #936
    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    Didn't say that at all. Of course, the United States isn't absolved of any wrongdoing in Afghanistan during that period. I'm just saying that framing their existence solely as a product of American imperialism is an oversimplification of who those people are and how and why they exist. It's also annoying because it's a western-centric way to view Afghanistan and denies them agency.
    I'm looking at this from a western centric way because not only is it a very short time span between the soviets' pulling out, the Afghan civil war starting, the Taliban taking over, 9/11 happening then the ensuing conflict there and in Iraq happening. but because in spite of the agency of the Afghan people the military industrial complex and the neo cons that had been in power since the George bush presidency saw Afghanistan as ripe for imperial conquest.

    really, the threat of Islamic terrorism has and always will be a red herring to justify western imperialism and even doubly so when the products of their imperialism come back to bite them on the ass, looking at you Al-Quida. the Taliban even came to the US and offered peace and Osama up and GWB said "no".

  17. #937
    USA hasn't been able to actually win a war for almost a century soon. xD

  18. #938
    Quote Originally Posted by Katie N View Post
    USA hasn't been able to actually win a war for almost a century soon. xD
    Except for the cold war and some others during last century:
    76 years since WWII.
    38 years since Grenada.

  19. #939
    Legendary! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katie N View Post
    USA hasn't been able to actually win a war for almost a century soon. xD
    The US hasn't actually been "at war" since WWII. And that's not really "almost a century" ago.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  20. #940
    Iraq war was officially "won."
    To be fair, it wasn't much a win.

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