Fate of Afghanistan, Taliban resurgence

[jonnysensible]

then I don't give a shit about your opinion... you know at least I went though the effort of trying to back my claims instead of... you who are just saying "nuh uh!" like what the hell, what are you even doing here?

i told you why your claim is dumb. The taliban didnt exist when the soviets were in Afghanistan. You are talking mad shit.

The Taliban were seeded by General Zia's zakat. The levy mainly went to Deobandi movement madrassas. Thousands of them opened up and produced students (a lot were afghan refugees) who ended up forming the Taliban. Islamist's like the Mujaheddin are 'modern' ie more inspired by Qutb and Mawdudi. The Deobandi are traditionalists who believed modern Islamism was corrupt.

When the soviets left Afghanistan the mujaheddin tore each other to pieces and this further radicalized the deobandi students who thought they were right about modern Islamism.

Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam in Pakistan represented the deobandis and Benazir Bhutto allied her fathers party with them (as a way back to power after being forced out by the army). She was sick of the conflict in Afghanistan with its corrupting influence on Pakistan and wanted to bring order. So she created a new force (which would also restore Pashtun power given that most of the students were Pashtun).

General Babar and Benazir unleashed the 'students' from Pakistan after giving them tons of arms and money. And that's the brief story of our Taliban friends.

[uuuhname]

Didn't say that at all. Of course, the United States isn't absolved of any wrongdoing in Afghanistan during that period. I'm just saying that framing their existence solely as a product of American imperialism is an oversimplification of who those people are and how and why they exist. It's also annoying because it's a western-centric way to view Afghanistan and denies them agency.

I'm looking at this from a western centric way because not only is it a very short time span between the soviets' pulling out, the Afghan civil war starting, the Taliban taking over, 9/11 happening then the ensuing conflict there and in Iraq happening. but because in spite of the agency of the Afghan people the military industrial complex and the neo cons that had been in power since the George bush presidency saw Afghanistan as ripe for imperial conquest.

really, the threat of Islamic terrorism has and always will be a red herring to justify western imperialism and even doubly so when the products of their imperialism come back to bite them on the ass, looking at you Al-Quida. the Taliban even came to the US and offered peace and Osama up and GWB said "no".

[Katie N]

USA hasn't been able to actually win a war for almost a century soon. xD

[Forogil]

USA hasn't been able to actually win a war for almost a century soon. xD

Except for the cold war and some others during last century:
76 years since WWII.
38 years since Grenada.

[PhaelixWW]

USA hasn't been able to actually win a war for almost a century soon. xD

The US hasn't actually been "at war" since WWII. And that's not really "almost a century" ago.

[Shadowferal]

Iraq war was officially "won."
To be fair, it wasn't much a win.

[PhaelixWW]

Iraq war was officially "won."
To be fair, it wasn't much a win.

It also wasn't technically a war.

[Shadowferal]

Formal Declarations of War ended with FDR.

[Mihalik]

really, the threat of Islamic terrorism has and always will be a red herring to justify western imperialism .

Yes and no.

Islamic terrorism is a byproduct of Colonialism and Imperialism, but that doesn't make it not a threat or a red herring, see 9/11 or the Madrid bombings or the Paris nightclub shooting etc.

Much more than the threat it is to Western powers tho, it's a threat to Muslim countries themselves.

See the tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of other Muslims killed by extremists or the millions of refugees fleeing sectarian violence.

The issue is that a problem caused by imperialism won't be fixed by more imperialism.

[Corvus]

In what should come as a surprise to no-one, the Taliban's promise of amnesty isn't worth the paper it is written on. Too many videos are emerging of the torture and murder of former police and soldiers, taken and shared by the Taliban themselves.

There is also evidence of a massacre of Hazara civilians, which is bound to annoy Iran. Prior to 9/11, Iran almost invaded Afghanistan because of the Taliban's massacres of Hazara, with whom the Iranians share ties, but they were talked out if it.

And there is even more video, taken by the Taliban (seriously, these guys are as bad at this as the Capitol insurrectionists) of them taunting Pakistani soldiers on the border with cries if 'youre next'. There is also a Pashtun Taliban in Pakistan. There is no difference between them except that Pakistan labels theirs a terrorist organisation and supports the Afghan one. Can't see that turning out bad.

Trying to make sense of what is going on isn't easy, but it looks like the Northern Alliance could see this coming a mile off. Someone dug up some old social media posts from them months back recruiting, training and preparing for just such an eventuality. They are based in the Panjshir valley and looks like they include a lot of special forces and ANA soldiers who were not happy there commanders were bought off by the Taliban to surrender.

The Panjshir valley is a big deal. It is very, very defensible. The Taliban couldn't do it last time. Not even the Soviets, backed by helicopter gunships, tanks and artillery (things that the Taliban as an irregular militia lack) could take the place.

The NA by all accounts have actually been advancing and taken a number of towns and may be closing in on Bagram airfield. Some speculation is they want to use it to fly in troops from the Stans where they took refuge. The other bit of speculation is that they are trying to take a crucial pass which is basically the only route between the north and the south of the country.

But getting actual factual information is difficult.

[Ursus]

Ayattolahs in Iran

Russians in Afghanistan

[Shadowferal]

Russians in Afghanistan

"Wheel of Fortune", Sally Ride, heavy metal suicide
Foreign debts, homeless vets, AIDS, crack, Bernie Goetz
Hypodermics on the shore, China's under martial law
Rock and roller, cola wars, I can't take it anymore...

[Draco-Onis]

It also wasn't technically a war.

But they are all wars president do not call them that because that would mean they need congress. The US is always at war just like how our forces are now "consultants" and mercenaries are "contractors", it's all kabuki theater.

[uuuhname]

Yes and no.

Islamic terrorism is a byproduct of Colonialism and Imperialism, but that doesn't make it not a threat or a red herring, see 9/11 or the Madrid bombings or the Paris nightclub shooting etc.

Much more than the threat it is to Western powers tho, it's a threat to Muslim countries themselves.

See the tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of other Muslims killed by extremists or the millions of refugees fleeing sectarian violence.

The issue is that a problem caused by imperialism won't be fixed by more imperialism.

I agree, in regards to threats that will topple western powers, no that's never going to happen at the hands of Islamic terrorism. which is my point. but to yours, yes, the victims in all of this continues to be the people in these areas who have to deal with the fallout.

[MCMLXXXII]

It also wasn't technically a war.

While you are right, George Dobya did call it a "War on Terr"

[szechuan]

Hillary was right.

[Shadowferal]

Have to wonder at how bad things became that the Taliban became the better option.

[Gaidax]

Have to wonder at how bad things became that the Taliban became the better option.

It's not that.

They just have history of temporarily uniting to fight off invaders before returning back to their villages and their ways, whatever they are.

They did in Brits, Soviets and now US. Every time a bunch of foreigners roll in trying to teach them how to live their lives, but they simply don't want any of that.

[Forogil]

Have to wonder at how bad things became that the Taliban became the better option.

I would more say that there were no other options after the western forces left, and the only major reason they hadn't left earlier was that no-one wanted to be responsible for this predictable mess - so every president had just been kicking the can down the road.

[Shadowferal]

I would more say that there were no other options after the western forces left, and the only major reason they hadn't left earlier was that no-one wanted to be responsible for this predictable mess - so every president had just been kicking the can down the road.

I don't believe that western forces presented the better option. The local pedophile police that they propped up were certainly not looked upon as a "good" option.