Fate of Afghanistan, Taliban resurgence

[Breccia]

Taliban name ambassador, want to speak to the UN.

I'm pretty sure this will be met with raised eyebrows but otherwise silence.

[Corvus]

IS-K have claimed responsibility for a number of bomb blasts across Afghanistan that have claimed a number of lives. Looks like the Taliban are going to be on the receiving end of an insurgency every bit as indifferent to civilian casualties as they were.

It's the civilians caught between these two groups that will get the worst of it as IS-K doesn't care who they kill and the Taliban's methods of dealing with it will be brutal.

[Themius]

Can you back up this claim?

This has already come to a few times with sources a few times. Also is believe the USA did admit at least some did die this way and they’re investigating.

[Machismo]

This has already come to a few times with sources a few times. Also is believe the USA did admit at least some did die this way and they’re investigating.

I'm well aware of the bombing itself, but he made a different, more-specific claim about shooting.

[Breccia]

I'm well aware of the bombing itself, but he made a different, more-specific claim about shooting.

The claim was "a lot". It was then followed by "spoon fed by CNN" and what sounded like hysterical sobbing.

[Machismo]

The claim was "a lot". It was then followed by "spoon fed by CNN" and what sounded like hysterical sobbing.

I wouldn't put it past soldiers and Marines to fire on innocent civilians in the confusion of a bombing. But, I'm not apt to believe random internet dudes, especially since I personally know people who were there at the time.

[Breccia]

I wouldn't put it past soldiers and Marines to fire on innocent civilians in the confusion of a bombing.

Oh, absolutely. And I would not put it past ISIS to fire at Americans from within a crowd to taunt them into firing back, either. But we saw posts from people claiming "most" or "a lot" and their evidence was "Some Guy On Twitter said he saw one guy get shot". Also known as "not enough evidence to support the claim".

[Corvus]

There were also Taliban caught up in the bombing and if anyone was going to go randomly shooting about I'd go with the barely trained militia.

[Themius]

There were also Taliban caught up in the bombing and if anyone was going to go randomly shooting about I'd go with the barely trained militia.

The one particular witness on video said the shots were fired from the American and Turkish soldiers.

[PhaelixWW]

The one particular witness on video said the shots were fired from the American and Turkish soldiers.

Yes, the one guy being interviewed on the Taliban-controlled streets blamed the foreign military for the shots which is very not-surprising at all.

There were also reports of at least one suspected ISIS-K gunman in the crowd, shooting. Other reports stated that about 20-30 Taliban were killed in the bombing, so it's not difficult to speculate that one or more of the Taliban in the vicinity might have been shooting rather indiscriminately, as well.

[Shalcker]

Yes, the one guy being interviewed on the Taliban-controlled streets blamed the foreign military for the shots which is very not-surprising at all.

There were also reports of at least one suspected ISIS-K gunman in the crowd, shooting. Other reports stated that about 20-30 Taliban were killed in the bombing, so it's not difficult to speculate that one or more of the Taliban in the vicinity might have been shooting rather indiscriminately, as well.

No corroborating reports of that.

Some contradicting evidence - like everyone being shot from above rather then from same level as it would happen with shooter in the crowd.

[PhaelixWW]

No corroborating reports of that.

There are plenty of reports that state that there was at least one suspected ISIS-K gunman.

Some contradicting evidence - like everyone being shot from above rather then from same level as it would happen with shooter in the crowd.

No, we have some guy-on-the-street's word that he saw bodies shot from above, but there's no corroboration of that. His word is not "evidence". (Also keep in mind that if there were ISIS-K gunmen at the bombing, then they likely would likely have been shot from above.)

Nor has any actual evidence been proffered that any significant number of people were shot in the first place.

If what they claimed happened actually happened, one would think that the evidence would be easy to find to legitimize their claim. Until such evidence is produced, it's just one unsubstantiated claim among countless.

[Shalcker]

There are plenty of reports that state that there was at least one suspected ISIS-K gunman.

That was theory made on origin of those shots.

Theory that so far has no supporting evidence.

No, we have some guy-on-the-street's word that he saw bodies shot from above, but there's no corroboration of that. His word is not "evidence". (Also keep in mind that if there were ISIS-K gunmen at the bombing, then they likely would likely have been shot from above.)

Nor has any actual evidence been proffered that any significant number of people were shot in the first place.

It feels like by this measure we have no "actual" evidence anyone was killed in Kabul's airport at all.

If what they claimed happened actually happened, one would think that the evidence would be easy to find to legitimize their claim. Until such evidence is produced, it's just one unsubstantiated claim among countless.

Why would they want to legitimize it though?

They still have to deal with ISIS-K themselves.

[PhaelixWW]

That was theory made on origin of those shots.

Theory that so far has no supporting evidence.

So... at least as much "evidence" as your claims, then.

It feels like by this measure we have no "actual" evidence anyone was killed in Kabul's airport at all.

...other than the many, many video recordings of the scene, the dead, the destruction...

You're not helping your case, here.

Why would they want to legitimize it though?

They still have to deal with ISIS-K themselves.

And thus you label it for the conspiracy theory that it is by saying that "of course there's no evidence, because THEY^TM don't want you to know about it!"

If there was actual evidence, it would be fairly hard to hide. Nor do I believe that the Taliban wouldn't scream it from the mountaintops were it true.

[Shalcker]

So... at least as much "evidence" as your claims, then.

Not like US is going to pay the victims even if they were proven to be killer.

...other than the many, many video recordings of the scene, the dead, the destruction...

You're not helping your case, here.

There are multiple recordings by various channels of witnesses repeating "Turkish/American forces shot people from above".

As far as i see noone disputes neither bombs nor shots being fired.

What is your evidence for shots coming from either ISIS-K or Taliban?

And thus you label it for the conspiracy theory that it is by saying that "of course there's no evidence, because THEY^TM don't want you to know about it!"

If there was actual evidence, it would be fairly hard to hide. Nor do I believe that the Taliban wouldn't scream it from the mountaintops were it true.

Hide from whom exactly?
Who would be investigator here?
Who would request it?

[PhaelixWW]

Not like US is going to pay the victims even if they were proven to be killer.

There are multiple recordings by various channels of witnesses repeating "Turkish/American forces shot people from above".

Feel free to link a few more unbiased (ie, non-China) sources. So far you've produced two fairly weak "interviews" with no fact-checking of any kind.

As far as i see noone disputes neither bombs nor shots being fired.

What is your evidence for shots coming from either ISIS-K or Taliban?

Where's your evidence? It's your claim.

Hide from whom exactly?
Who would be investigator here?
Who would request it?

The same as for any incident involving more than one nation, one would suppose: the unbiased international community and/or the "wronged" nation.

[Shalcker]

Where's your evidence? It's your claim.

It was already shown in this thread, and you have seen it.

You haven't provided any links even to your assertions that "there were claims" it was ISIS or Taliban gunfire there.

The same as for any incident involving more than one nation, one would suppose: the unbiased international community and/or the "wronged" nation.

Well, they might rise this issue when their UN ambassador will talk there.

[PhaelixWW]

It was already shown in this thread, and you have seen it.

Nyet, brat.

That's not evidence. I don't know why you're having such a hard time with that concept.

You haven't provided any links even to your assertions that "there were claims" it was ISIS or Taliban gunfire there.

Uh, suuuuure...

USA Today:

The Pentagon said the attack was carried out by a single suicide bomber from the ISIS-K terrorist network and multiple ISIS-K gunmen.

NBC News:

ISIS gunmen also opened fire on servicemen and civilians just after the Abbey Gate blast, according to Marine Gen. Frank McKenzie, the head of U.S. Central Command

AP News:

Two suicide bombers and gunmen attacked crowds of Afghans flocking to Kabul’s airport Thursday

LA Times:

Then gunmen opened fire, adding to the devastation.

NPR:

The official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said the Thursday attacks were carried out by two suicide bombers and gunmen.

CNN:

Immediately after the explosions, gunmen opened fire on service members and civilians, said Marine Gen. Frank McKenzie, Centcom Commander.

Aljazeera:

On Thursday, two suicide bombers and gunmen attacked crowds of Afghans that had flocked to Kabul’s airport

ABC News:

The bombing "was followed by a number of ISIS gunmen who opened fire on civilians and military forces," McKenzie said.

The Hill:

...a suicide bombing just outside the gate at Hamid Karzai International Airport (HKIA), followed by a number of ISIS gunmen who opened fire on civilians and military forces.

Washington Post:

Multiple gunmen then opened fire on the civilians and military forces.

Wall Street Journal:

Two explosions ripped through crowds, followed by a gun assault, at Kabul airport...

The Guardian:

Two suicide bombers and gunmen attacked crowds of Afghans flocking to Kabul’s airport on Thursday

NY Post:

ISIS-affiliated suicide bombers and gunmen struck the Kabul airport Thursday

CBS News:

Following the attack at the Abbey Gate, ISIS gunmen opened fire on civilians and military forces, McKenzie said.

Financial Times:

The casualties on Thursday resulted from a suicide bombing near the airport’s Abbey Gate, which was followed by a gunman opening fire on civilians and troops.

And it goes on and on...

One of your "sources" was supposed to be more credible because he was attached to the BBC, right? Well, how about this, then:

BBC:

An ex-Royal Marine who was near to the explosions outside Kabul airport has told how "all hell broke loose" as gunmen fired near his vehicle.

"All hell broke loose at the airport circle which is where I was, which is probably about a mile from the explosions across at the Abbey Gate and we had Taliban there firing into the air," Mr Farthing, who founded the Nowzad shelter, told the BBC.

"One let off a full magazine on automatic from his AK-47 right next to the window of our bus where we had women and children in.

Panicking Taliban, shooting for no reason? Sounds about right.

So yeah, reports of both ISIS-K shooters at the bombing, and panicked Taliban shooting in the area.

Well, they might rise this issue when their UN ambassador will talk there.

Hmm, doubtful. The Taliban is unlikely to get accredited with the UN, in the first place.

U.N. credentials are dealt with by a nine-member committee appointed annually. The committee, named on Tuesday, is made up of the Bahamas, Bhutan, Chile, China, Namibia, Russia, Sierra Leone, Sweden and the United States.

The committee traditionally meets in October or November to assess the credentials of all U.N. members before submitting a report for General Assembly approval before the end of the year. The committee and General Assembly usually operate by consensus on credentials, diplomats said.

Until a decision is made Isaczai [the ousted Afghanistan government's ambassador] will remain in the seat, according to the General Assembly rules. When the Taliban last ruled the ambassador of the Afghan government they toppled remained the U.N. envoy after the credentials committee deferred its decision on rival claims to the seat.

And even then:

The committee is unlikely to meet on the issue before Monday, so it is doubtful that the Taliban foreign minister will address the world body.

So... no.

[Shalcker]

NBC News:

Ok, so Taliban are the ones quoted as doing investigation.

Everything seems to be same-day reporting.

Here is updated version NYT i already linked upthread talking about later events:
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/08...iden-isis-news

For the first time, Pentagon officials publicly acknowledged the possibility that some of the people killed in the aftermath of the suicide bombing at Kabul airport may have died in gunfire coming from American service members after the suicide bomber detonated himself.

Pentagon officials have previously said there was gunfire after the bombing, but were unsure where it emanated. Investigators are looking into whether the shots came from Americans at the gate, or from the Islamic State, which claimed responsibility for the suicide bombing.

“We can’t confirm that,” Pentagon Press Secretary John F. Kirby said during a news conference on Saturday. But, he added that the Defense Department was “not in position to deny it either.”

...so, maybe stop trying to be more defensive then Pentagon officials about it, and acknowledge the possibility?

[PhaelixWW]

...so, maybe stop trying to be more defensive then Pentagon officials about it, and acknowledge the possibility?

Where exactly did I deny the possibility? I just denied your claim that it definitely happened. You're the one taking the conspiracy theory hard line here, with basically zero evidence.

I put the likelihood of "most of the deaths" coming from US gunfire to be about 0.0000000001%, for a multitude of reasons. And again, you have virtually nothing to support the idea that that's what happened.

If any actual evidence is produced to that effect, I'll absolutely reevaluate, but I'm fairly certain it would have happened by now. There are enough international news crews still in Kabul to have broken that story were it true. And no, some guy saying it on the street is not "breaking the story".