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  1. #481
    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    i completely disagree with this if i list a grp stating in the title that its a vault run and some1 leaves the instant we wipe or the timers going out, imo they should be penalised and heavily and don't give me any crap about them not having the time, IF THEY DONT HAVE TIME, THE SHOULDN'T JOIN OR APPPLY! its not my job to baby people that wont read the listing. if the cant or wont read it that's not my fault or problem its theirs
    There are two sides to to this hypothetical vault run: group wipe and timer going out. For the latter, when you join a vault run group, there is an explicit notion that it may not be timed, so leaving for that reason and that reason alone is crummy. The former, however, is not the same. When your group wipes, it's easy to tell what went wrong and why. If I see incompetence from that wipe, it's a clear signal that the rest of the run is going to be ... taxing. In this hypothetical, I didn't sign up for a wipefest, so leaving is completely acceptable, regardless of perceived hurt feelings or whatever else.

    The problem with your take here is you're reading too narrowly into the reason why someone leaves. I may join your group agreeing to an untimed vault run, but that doesn't mean I agreed to wipe repeatedly with subpar players.

    Most of all: if something is no longer fun, coercing people to stay is really, really bad. It doesn't foster good relationships, both with other players and the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    I mean broadly, sure. But if you agree to do a group thing with other people there is (or should be) a basic covenant that you don't want to waste their time, and that they shouldn't waste yours. So leaving if you have an emergency or because the key is falling apart is all well and good, but yeeting off because you lost interest halfway through is just douchey imo.

    That said, they can't (and shouldn't) police this. Any cure would be worse than the disease.
    More or less agree, though I wouldn't equate "losing interest" in the same way of not having fun. They can certainly intersect, but if I simply lost interest, and there is no issue with the group otherwise, that is definitely on me, and if I leave in that hypothetical scenario I would certainly be in the wrong.

  2. #482
    Quote Originally Posted by Eli85 View Post
    There are two sides to to this hypothetical vault run: group wipe and timer going out. For the latter, when you join a vault run group, there is an explicit notion that it may not be timed, so leaving for that reason and that reason alone is crummy. The former, however, is not the same. When your group wipes, it's easy to tell what went wrong and why. If I see incompetence from that wipe, it's a clear signal that the rest of the run is going to be ... taxing. In this hypothetical, I didn't sign up for a wipefest, so leaving is completely acceptable, regardless of perceived hurt feelings or whatever else.

    The problem with your take here is you're reading too narrowly into the reason why someone leaves. I may join your group agreeing to an untimed vault run, but that doesn't mean I agreed to wipe repeatedly with subpar players.

    Most of all: if something is no longer fun, coercing people to stay is really, really bad. It doesn't foster good relationships, both with other players and the game
    fair enough but that im describing is what im seeing the majority of times, and im not taking subpar ppl unless i want to make the run easier to deal with for example no 1 with hero is signing up and no 1 with drums, im taking people with a reasonable io and ilvl for that dungeon, which means i wont take someone with 225 ilvl and 200 score to a 12 even if its a vault run i hope that example clears up what im doing with my vault runs.

    personally i think with how the scoring system works 1.1-1.3k and say 230 ilvl is reasonable for a 12 since everyone has their won definition of that's reasonable for what level of content feel free to disagree with this, if i was pushing it i would have higher score requirements

  3. #483
    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    fair enough but that im describing is what im seeing the majority of times, and im not taking subpar ppl unless i want to make the run easier to deal with for example no 1 with hero is signing up and no 1 with drums, im taking people with a reasonable io and ilvl for that dungeon, which means i wont take someone with 225 ilvl and 200 score to a 12 even if its a vault run i hope that example clears up what im doing with my vault runs.

    personally i think with how the scoring system works 1.1-1.3k and say 230 ilvl is reasonable for a 12 since everyone has their won definition of that's reasonable for what level of content feel free to disagree with this, if i was pushing it i would have higher score requirements
    Score and iLevel are very misleading. It's all too common to join a group with a reasonable score and ilevel for the dungeon in question, just to find out after the dungeon starts that the group either can't time the dungeon, or it will take a lot of wipes for the untimed completion. This is the largest, most singly frustrating aspect of pugging M+. I don't doubt that you see leavers the majority of times, and I'm sure there are some unhinged rage quitters in there as well, but I reckon most people who leave M+ groups do so because what they expect the group to be doesn't correlate with reality, even when score and ilevel say otherwise.

  4. #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    There are people who agree with this pov and want all runs to finish no matter if they are timed or not and there are people who are only there for the on time rating.
    Technically, the changes in season 2 allow for a score even if you don't time the key. Granted the score drops the longer the key goes on but a few seconds over the timer on a +17 can be better than a +15 finished exactly on time.

    Some have raised that this is a bad thing because it's inflating the scores of players who can't time keys but make up for it by having higher keys (untimed) completed.
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  5. #485
    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    i tried that 90% of the time it just comes up with 0 players found sadly.....
    If you just write their name, yes, that's what you'll get. You have to actually write their realm. Works 100% of time for me.

  6. #486
    Quote Originally Posted by Eli85 View Post
    Score and iLevel are very misleading. It's all too common to join a group with a reasonable score and ilevel for the dungeon in question, just to find out after the dungeon starts that the group either can't time the dungeon, or it will take a lot of wipes for the untimed completion. This is the largest, most singly frustrating aspect of pugging M+. I don't doubt that you see leavers the majority of times, and I'm sure there are some unhinged rage quitters in there as well, but I reckon most people who leave M+ groups do so because what they expect the group to be doesn't correlate with reality, even when score and ilevel say otherwise.
    that mainly happens in lower dungeons though . why it happens ? because a lot of people gain " resonable score" from untimed runs.

    those are people whos score shoule be in relaity 1/3rd of what they have - but because blizzard is desperate to retain players now and gives point for untimed dungeons the sores of many many people are way overinflated.

    which later resoults in stupid wipes and group disbands.

    i suggest trying at least 19-20 bracket - as people there have atm corrct attitudes , knowledge about mechanics and exacution.

    bracket like 13-17 is absolute cesspool atm due to that overinflated scores and people who belive that just because they got score out of untimed runs they are owed to be able to be carried to 10x15 dungeons a week.
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2021-08-25 at 06:35 AM.

  7. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    While I have to agree, I can hardly blame @Nachtigal. That crap can get really infuriating at times.
    You can't blame him because you have the same insecurities as him. You guys are prime content for r/ImTheMainCharacter. Hate it to break it to you kiddos but you aren't as special as mommy told you.

    @Nachtigal

  8. #488
    I think ultimately it just boils down to what kind of person you are. If I can tell the run isn't going the smoothest, I won't throw a fit or flame people because I'm a fairly relaxed/chilled out person and honestly, if the worst scenario I'm facing is a depleted key where I spend 10 minutes more than I need, that's a bullet I'm willing to take for the sake of staying for the group, making sure people get their key done. For the most part I'm just looking to do the key and in time VS out of time isn't the biggest issue, even though doing it in time is nicer ofc.

    Then there's people who play with a "me me me" mindset who couldn't care less about the people behind the screens in the group they are at. They'll leave 5 minutes into a key or fake DC, or start throwing insults around like you're at a daycare. It's just different mindsets people have that's all. I would say it's fair if you make it clear before starting the key that "I really want this in time or not at all" and if everyone in the group signs up for that notion, then leaving if things go terrible should be fine. But I feel like most of the pug keys you see fall under the "We aim to time it but if we don't let's finish it at least" umbrella and I still see a lot of people struggling with that.

  9. #489
    Over 9000! Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Googles View Post
    You can't blame him because you have the same insecurities as him. You guys are prime content for r/ImTheMainCharacter. Hate it to break it to you kiddos but you aren't as special as mommy told you.

    @Nachtigal
    Gotta love MMOC armchair psychologists
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    It's not really retconning though. There's plenty we didn't know from WC3 - a story which is just about 20 years old. The Jailer is the backbone of that story.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    It's interesting how a character that didn't exist back then could be the backbone of the story. Guess that story must have been an invertebrate then.

  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantera View Post
    I think ultimately it just boils down to what kind of person you are. If I can tell the run isn't going the smoothest, I won't throw a fit or flame people because I'm a fairly relaxed/chilled out person and honestly, if the worst scenario I'm facing is a depleted key where I spend 10 minutes more than I need, that's a bullet I'm willing to take for the sake of staying for the group, making sure people get their key done.
    That's admirable, but this is a moral virtue, not a moral obligation. It's NICE of you to stay and finish even if it's depleted; but it's not something anyone could REQUIRE of you.

    I'd love for there to be a system in place that discourages people from instantly abandoning keys at the first sign of trouble. However I don't see a practical way of implementing such a system currently, so we're stuck with /shrug, move on. If Blizzard ever comes up with a way to make such a system feasible that'd be great, but for now it is what it is.

  11. #491
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantera View Post
    I think ultimately it just boils down to what kind of person you are. If I can tell the run isn't going the smoothest, I won't throw a fit or flame people because I'm a fairly relaxed/chilled out person and honestly, if the worst scenario I'm facing is a depleted key where I spend 10 minutes more than I need, that's a bullet I'm willing to take for the sake of staying for the group, making sure people get their key done. For the most part I'm just looking to do the key and in time VS out of time isn't the biggest issue, even though doing it in time is nicer ofc.

    Then there's people who play with a "me me me" mindset who couldn't care less about the people behind the screens in the group they are at. They'll leave 5 minutes into a key or fake DC, or start throwing insults around like you're at a daycare. It's just different mindsets people have that's all. I would say it's fair if you make it clear before starting the key that "I really want this in time or not at all" and if everyone in the group signs up for that notion, then leaving if things go terrible should be fine. But I feel like most of the pug keys you see fall under the "We aim to time it but if we don't let's finish it at least" umbrella and I still see a lot of people struggling with that.
    thats all depeends how you name your key htough

    if you name it "super hiper ultra push +++++++++++++" then ofc they leave

    if yu called it "it might be not in time " then they will likely stay till end even not timed. you may get people with 500 less score - but they will indeed stay forver. just to get depleted score.

  12. #492
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    that mainly happens in lower dungeons though . why it happens ? because a lot of people gain " resonable score" from untimed runs.

    those are people whos score shoule be in relaity 1/3rd of what they have - but because blizzard is desperate to retain players now and gives point for untimed dungeons the sores of many many people are way overinflated.

    which later resoults in stupid wipes and group disbands.

    i suggest trying at least 19-20 bracket - as people there have atm corrct attitudes , knowledge about mechanics and exacution.

    bracket like 13-17 is absolute cesspool atm due to that overinflated scores and people who belive that just because they got score out of untimed runs they are owed to be able to be carried to 10x15 dungeons a week.
    The player power rewards stop at +15. Suggesting that players try a much more difficult bracket that does not offer increased player power is not a palatable solution.

  13. #493
    M+ with the time limit, scores, and loot system supports toxic community behaviour.

    There's nothing special about clearing a m15. It's a little bit of skill and little bit of gear check, that's it. There's no purpose having it after a few weeks of expansion launch.

    On my first char it's fine because I'm somewhere around the top anyway. On my alts the system only annoys me.

    There's other ways to prevent abuse than to put a lockout on everyone.
    They should just remove the timer etc so ppl would play the game for fun again.

  14. #494
    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    This is already how the system works today... If you leave or kick someone and they 4man it, you are still eligible for loot, thats why you never ever continue a run.
    I think most m+ problems about leavers could be fixed by removing this nonsense, and then adding some kind of penalty if you leave within 20 (15?) minutes of starting the instance, or before three wipes. No penalties given to the second, third, or fourth person to drop group, and no penalties for being kicked (too complicated to add a penalty system).

  15. #495
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefall View Post
    I think most m+ problems about leavers could be fixed by removing this nonsense, and then adding some kind of penalty if you leave within 20 (15?) minutes of starting the instance, or before three wipes. No penalties given to the second, third, or fourth person to drop group, and no penalties for being kicked (too complicated to add a penalty system).
    There aren't any problems, and this would be worse than what we have.

  16. #496
    Quote Originally Posted by Eli85 View Post
    The player power rewards stop at +15. Suggesting that players try a much more difficult bracket that does not offer increased player power is not a palatable solution.
    and so what that it stops ?

    you want to play with better players to avoid keys being destoryed ? better players are atm at 20+ already . probably having easier time then most people in +15 pugs.

  17. #497
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    and so what that it stops ?

    you want to play with better players to avoid keys being destoryed ? better players are atm at 20+ already . probably having easier time then most people in +15 pugs.
    I could care less about keys being destroyed. I would like to see score correlate more accurately with practical player skill. Personally, I think that begins with increasing the difficulty at lower keys and making mistakes (eg., missing an interrupt) much more consequential. In other words, make it so that getting carried through lower keys becomes exceedingly more difficult than it already is.

  18. #498
    Quote Originally Posted by Googles View Post
    You can't blame him because you have the same insecurities as him. You guys are prime content for r/ImTheMainCharacter. Hate it to break it to you kiddos but you aren't as special as mommy told you.

    @Nachtigal
    I couldn't care less about what you have to say about me. Truth is, you're just going to see this very little part of myself and just assume you know everything about me. Toodles, googles.

  19. #499
    The Unstoppable Force Puupi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post

    if yu called it "it might be not in time " then they will likely stay till end even not timed. you may get people with 500 less score - but they will indeed stay forver. just to get depleted score.
    Only if that were true.
    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    i've said i'd like to have one of those bad dragon dildos shaped like a horse, because the shape is nicer than human.
    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    i was talking about horse cock again, told him to look at your sig.

  20. #500
    Quote Originally Posted by Eli85 View Post
    I could care less about keys being destroyed. I would like to see score correlate more accurately with practical player skill. Personally, I think that begins with increasing the difficulty at lower keys and making mistakes (eg., missing an interrupt) much more consequential. In other words, make it so that getting carried through lower keys becomes exceedingly more difficult than it already is.
    but it does corelat - you just need to learn how to read this score

    this is the problem with statistics - people expect fast simple answer instead put literaly 10 seconds into reading whole data.

    doe high score people make mistakes ? sure they do - everyone does we are not robots

    but statiticaly person who has like 2400 xp and like 150+ timed dungeons will do much much much less mistakes then person who has like 2k score and like 20 timed dungeons

    and at this point of expansion people who care about m+ are already above 100+ timed dungeons this season .

    you wanna play with those people .

    hell im a casual scrub and i already timed 80+ dungeons.

    and the part about stuff being taxing in lower dungeons. it is taxing when they are done at appropiate itlv - thing is most people vastly overgear them . and then hit wall at like 13-15 when gear progress slows down and they cannot overgear them in 1 week . they can in 2 months of gear / VP/ raid . GV farm . but not instantly . thats why they think that +15 is hard.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    Only if that were true.
    it is true. not everyone is a nasty person on internet.

    last week i was still missing 1 dungeon on tuesday so i joined some random +15 pug . they were honest about boosting their friend in description and i didnt mind missing timer . just wanted to complete 1 . we almsot timed it with 180 itlv lock in group .
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2021-08-26 at 07:40 AM.

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